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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2024 23:09:51 GMT -5
Tenka, I promise you, you have to throw out the words belief and beliefs with the ND people discussion. A Realization is not in any sense a belief. Is there any way to prove / show that you are realized? There isn't. Not even to yourself. So, it is a belief. I don't have a dog in that fight, I just know what they maintain, and they are 100% adamant. sdp clearly has a different view. You have to find a firm ground of verification. It's possible. (It's not realization).
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Post by inavalan on Jan 13, 2024 23:15:12 GMT -5
And notice that the point here was that belief happens after-the-fact. Did you notice how you used the past tense? Why does it happen after the fact? A belief system in effect means that the moment you stub your toe, you stub your toe. You don't a while after think, fcuk me, I just stubbed me toe All that you know exists only in the past, and it isn't 100% reliable. The present moment has no duration. You respond only to the past: instinctual, emotional, intellectual, intuitional.
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Post by inavalan on Jan 13, 2024 23:36:02 GMT -5
Is there any way to prove / show that you are realized? There isn't. Not even to yourself. So, it is a belief. I don't have a dog in that fight, I just know what they maintain, and they are 100% adamant. sdp clearly has a different view. You have to find a firm ground of verification. It's possible. (It's not realization). I don't hope to convince anybody that they aren't "realized". I just state my opinion, in spite of expecting a push-back I don't care for, because one's believing that he is "realized', or that somebody else is "realized", is detrimental to himself, and not only to the physically oriented self, but to his multidimensional personality. If you see somebody hurting himself, the normal thing to do is to tell him, even if your observation might be wrong. As it attracted your attention, you should also interpret it by tapping your inner guidance.
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Post by laughter on Jan 14, 2024 0:28:10 GMT -5
I don't have a dog in that fight, I just know what they maintain, and they are 100% adamant. sdp clearly has a different view. You have to find a firm ground of verification. It's possible. (It's not realization). I don't hope to convince anybody that they aren't "realized". I just state my opinion, in spite of expecting a push-back I don't care for, because one's believing that he is "realized', or that somebody else is "realized", is detrimental to himself, and not only to the physically oriented self, but to his multidimensional personality. If you see somebody hurting himself, the normal thing to do is to tell him, even if your observation might be wrong. As it attracted your attention, you should also interpret it by tapping your inner guidance. You are continuing a very long tradition of such kindness on this forum,
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Post by inavalan on Jan 14, 2024 0:42:50 GMT -5
I don't hope to convince anybody that they aren't "realized". I just state my opinion, in spite of expecting a push-back I don't care for, because one's believing that he is "realized', or that somebody else is "realized", is detrimental to himself, and not only to the physically oriented self, but to his multidimensional personality. If you see somebody hurting himself, the normal thing to do is to tell him, even if your observation might be wrong. As it attracted your attention, you should also interpret it by tapping your inner guidance. You are continuing a very long tradition of such kindness on this forum, There is no kindness involved. I believe it is the right thing to do. I think that I should always do whatever I believe to be the right thing to do, and in the long run everything will go alright. It doesn't matter what others believe to be right. EDIT: Not doing what I believe to be the right thing to do, would generate a negative emotional response in me, which would need to be addressed. Otherwise, that would further bring into my reality situations that would amplify the negativity. I don't want that.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 5:55:52 GMT -5
Why does it happen after the fact? A belief system in effect means that the moment you stub your toe, you stub your toe. You don't a while after think, fcuk me, I just stubbed me toe laughter thinks he's correct about everything, he's not. Sure, the first belief occurs after the fact. (If you ever stub your toe, you try very hard to try-not-to stub your toe, again). But then, subsequently, beliefs control and filter our perception. So, most beliefs are before the fact. That's the nature of conditioning. inavalan is an expert on how beliefs control perception, before the fact. Superstitions are beliefs before-the-fact. Most superstitions are rather stupid, and most people even know this, but some people will lick their finger and make a cross on their windshield, anyway. Or, sprinkle a pinch of salt over their shoulder. Sure, that's how a belief system is formed. When we talk about an adult male that has already a foundational belief system in place stubbing a toe or simply feeling the sunshine on our faces will reflect that.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 6:11:34 GMT -5
.. What you are within individuated experience does. That's the common-mind response. It's also the response, in clarity, after mind has been informed of the existential truth. I am uncertain as to which one of those you are expressing. .. You are referring to an existential truth as something that is true as a foundation. This isn't a foundation of a realised truth, it is a mindful belief that you have associated with something that can't be explained. Going over old ground here and not sure why you are even talking to me about this. Any response is a mind response. It matters not if it's common or unique. A peep that speaks of the world being a dream world is equally expressing a mindful response based upon what they believe a dream to be. That's how I believe it works.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 6:17:35 GMT -5
If you have a 100% knowing of what you are that isn't a belief, then you tell me what stubs their toe. That uncertainty is due in part to you posing self-inquiry as a question to me in this dialog, as I predicted that you would. .. Well I am just returning the favour and putting the ball back in your court, predictable or not.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 6:22:25 GMT -5
I don't have a conceptual term for what we are that is individuated that is 100% known to be true. Gee, almost as if it's ineffable ... .. It is if we believe in the conceptual meaning of the word and it's not some kinda Truth that reflects in what we actually are. I don't know anyone who knows 100% what we are that is individuated is ______. You don't know. Anyone on the forums want to stick their neck out here and proclaim to know 100%?
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Post by zazeniac on Jan 14, 2024 6:29:44 GMT -5
Clearly the primary characteristic of folks who are enlightened is grumpiness. I pass.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 6:31:43 GMT -5
Why does it happen after the fact? A belief system in effect means that the moment you stub your toe, you stub your toe. You don't a while after think, fcuk me, I just stubbed me toe This is another one we can reconcile by language. I say that the pain happens and then there's a follow-on thought and characterization by mind as to the pain. If you don't make a distinction between pain and thought, then the temporal sequence won't fit into your lexicon. But I maintain that it's a useful distinction, for a number of reasons. Or maybe it isn't a language issue. Dunno'. The belief system is in effect prior to one stubbing their toe. If we want to talk about a split second between how pain receptors and thoughts are playing catch up with one another that doesn't negate the belief in that it's your toe and not mine that's been stubbed. How the body mind construction works doesn't have any bearing on one's belief system already in place.
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Post by tenka on Jan 14, 2024 6:46:37 GMT -5
Why does it happen after the fact? A belief system in effect means that the moment you stub your toe, you stub your toe. You don't a while after think, fcuk me, I just stubbed me toe All that you know exists only in the past, and it isn't 100% reliable. The present moment has no duration. You respond only to the past: instinctual, emotional, intellectual, intuitional. Our belief system is in effect now, it is the present based upon what one has experienced thus far. The thing about the present moment, the past, the future, there is only now just open up another set of beliefs. It really is difficult for anyone to say anything when we are examining what we believe to be true or the case in these instances.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 14, 2024 7:36:03 GMT -5
Gee, almost as if it's ineffable ... .. It is if we believe in the conceptual meaning of the word and it's not some kinda Truth that reflects in what we actually are. I don't know anyone who knows 100% what we are that is individuated is ______. You don't know. Anyone on the forums want to stick their neck out here and proclaim to know 100%? Sure. There is only what we are, but "what we are" is just a conceptual pointer to what is non-conceptual, non-dual, incomprehensible, and unimaginable, and can be directly apprehended as non-conceptual, non-dual, incomprehensible, unimaginable, undivided, infinite, and ineffable by THIS as THIS.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 9:28:19 GMT -5
Clearly the primary characteristic of folks who are enlightened is grumpiness. I pass.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 14, 2024 10:23:12 GMT -5
The way is straight up, vertical, it need not have anything to do with this world (look around). I'm going to reply to sN of a couple of days ago concerning this. It's on the quotes thread. Looks like sN has departed. He'll be back in 4-5 weeks. But if the wounds and hurts we receive as small children are a big part of what leads to identification with a false/imaginary self, then the world is 'involved' in the process...? So I'm asking how it would be for those kids if they had never had those wounds i.e what would it be like to be 'pure individuation'? And 19 hours ago, andrew said: But my questions for sdp are hypothetical. I've been considering this further, since it's hypothetical, read the stories of Chuang Tzu. This is one of my favorites. From The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton, he said this was his favorite book. Not a translation, from his reading of other translations. I'll put some more of my favorites on the quotes thread. THE TURTLE Chuang Tzu with his bamboo pole Was fishing in Pu river. The Prince of Chu Sent two vice-chancellors With a formal document: "We hereby appoint you Prime Minister." Chuang Tzu held his bamboo pole. Still watching Pu river, He said: "I am told there is a sacred tortoise, Offered and canonized Three thousand years ago, Venerated by the prince, Wrapped in silk, In a precious shrine On an altar In the Temple. "What do you think: Is it better to give up one's life And leave a sacred shell As an object of cult In a cloud of incense Three thousand years, Or better to live As a plain turtle Dragging its tail in the mud?" "For the turtle," said the Vice-Chancellor, "Better to live And drag its tail in the mud!" "Go home!" said Chuang Tzu. "Leave me here To drag my tail in the mud!" [xvii. II.] THE TRUE MAN What is meant by a "true man"? The true men of old were not afraid When they stood alone in their views.No great exploits. No plans. If they failed, no sorrow. No self-congratulation in success. They scaled cliffs, never dizzy, Plunged in water, never wet, Walked through fire and were not burnt. Thus their knowledge reached all the way To Tao. The true men of old Slept without dreams, Woke without worries. Their food was plain. They breathed deep. True men breathe from their heels. Others breathe with their gullets, Half-strangled. In dispute They heave up arguments Like vomit. Where the fountains of passion Lie deep The heavenly springs Are soon dry. The true men of old Knew no lust for life, No dread of death.Their entrance was without gladness, Their exit, yonder, Without resistance. Easy come, easy go. They did not forget where from, Nor ask where to, Nor drive grimly forward Fighting their way through life. They took life as it came, gladly; Took death as it came, without care; And went away, yonder, Yonder! They had no mind to fight Tao. They did not try, by their own contriving, To help Tao along. These are the ones we call true men. Minds free, thoughts gone Brows clear, faces serene.Were they cool? Only cool as autumn. Were they hot? No hotter than spring. All that came out of them Came quiet, like the four seasons. [vi. I.] emphasis sdp
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