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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 1:15:04 GMT -5
It depends on what you interpret the LOA to mean. I don't use this term as part of my view of reality, but it points to elements of it. You can interpret reality only from your perspective, level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. What you see isn't exactly what it is, but a materialization of an inner reality, and this materialization is only yours; it isn't identical with anybody else's. There is no objective reference. At inner level you use inner senses, so the events and experiences are multi-dimensional, and are something else than what you perceive physically. Nobody dies in terms of destruction and annihilation. When you wake up, or go to sleep you just change focus; same when being born, or dying. You are immersed, hypnotized in some of these states, part by choice, part by mistake. In any state your experience is determined only by your level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. This is what LOA actually points to; not what most people believe to be. Nothing is imposed on you, nor from the physical world, nor from the inner world. Nobody to blame, nor to forgive, nor to put on a pedestal. Okay, what I mean is that, given the specific structures of this human dimensional reality, it's inadequate as an explanation to say that a baby that suffers/dies has vibrationally created/attracted that. Even if I accept that it's true at a higher level, it's still inadequate, because many souls aren't here to explore that higher level truth. These babies are here to experience brutality. That was hard for me to say, but brutality is a valid exploration in this dimensional reality. Then again, so is accountability! So my view of what you are saying is that it's all true in a higher sense, I'm likely to be inclined to talk about experience in terms of themes/explorations, just as much as I might be inclined to talk about the higher truths you are talking about. For many folks (including me), forgiveness has been an excellent tool. Compassion and empathy too. Even if it's misconceived at the higher level truths you are offering, it's still usaul within our vibrational reality. In Abe terms, no one comes here to suffer, but some come here to experience extreme contrast and come only for a short but intense ride. In Seth terms, no one comes here to suffer, but some come here to only go that far, like a test run, and then withdraw again when they experienced what they wanted to experience (I think there as some quotes on that topic in the Seth thread). Another explanation you often hear is that of a theater production, i.e. you chose your roles before you come here and then you play out your (self)assigned roles. Which means you chose your parents and you have agreements with the people you love and hate, the people that help you and harm you etc. and when you're done, you do it all over again because it was such a dramatic play, but this time you choose opposite roles, the perpetrator now plays the victim and the victim now plays the perpetrator. Now, you'll see that these different explanations all cater to different levels of understanding. The lowest level of understanding with the greatest potential of suffering is certainly SDP's explanation. What Inavalan offered is a much higher level of explanation. I like Abe's streaming consciousness explanation, because unlike the other stories, it is already beyond separation and individual volitional actors.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 1:25:22 GMT -5
It depends on what you interpret the LOA to mean. I don't use this term as part of my view of reality, but it points to elements of it. You can interpret reality only from your perspective, level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. What you see isn't exactly what it is, but a materialization of an inner reality, and this materialization is only yours; it isn't identical with anybody else's. There is no objective reference. At inner level you use inner senses, so the events and experiences are multi-dimensional, and are something else than what you perceive physically. Nobody dies in terms of destruction and annihilation. When you wake up, or go to sleep you just change focus; same when being born, or dying. You are immersed, hypnotized in some of these states, part by choice, part by mistake. In any state your experience is determined only by your level of evolvement, beliefs, expectations, emotions. This is what LOA actually points to; not what most people believe to be. Nothing is imposed on you, nor from the physical world, nor from the inner world. Nobody to blame, nor to forgive, nor to put on a pedestal. Maybe this analogy will clarify how I see it... Let's say someone is in a play, on stage. And in that play, they are asked to forgive, or feel imposed upon, or whatever. It's not 'real'. because they are acting. And yet a good actor will connect to the role and genuinely experience those things, even though it's not real. And that's kind of how I see the human reality. It's a play...and in a sense, it's a lie - you are right, there's nothing to forgive and no imposition. And yet, playing this human role might still engender finding forgiveness, and it being useful, from within the story. And it might engender feeling imposed upon too. We can't avoid it IF those are the themes of the play, and that is our role in the story. Watts once compared the difference cultures and how they see reality. If I remember correctly, he put it this way: The idea of the world as a play or a drama comes from Hinduism. In the West, the world is seen as a construct. And in China, they see the world as an organism. So while these models have their place in making sense of creation, the truth, however, lies beyond all these different models. All these stories belong to the realm of imagination, but the truth cannot be imagined.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 1:44:05 GMT -5
No, I am interested. I just don't see anything except a conceptual house of cards. Show me something besides theory. It isn't a "conceptual house of cards", nor a "theory"; it is my view on reality, that I live by. It is my "rubber hits the road" test. I don't differentiate between me when I discuss from my spiritual point of view, and me when I live the physical reality. Everything that attracts my attention, I intuitively interpret and fit with my views. Learning is a process of differentiation rather than accumulation of knowledge. I learn not from the experiences per se, but from my interpretations, intuitive, or with my inner guidance's help. It doesn't matter what somebody thinks, nor what he tries to convey, but what I interpret it to mean, which is a pointer to some inner knowledge, to learn or to be tested. You see, sometimes it is difficult to answer some questions because they make no sense from my perspective, and need my guess of where they're coming from, then my attempt to overcome that filter. Sometimes I reply with less hope to communicate, but more from respect toward the person who tries to understand what I say, or to learn in general. I have no interest in arguing, not in convincing, because I don't want to mislead where I might be wrong in my views. I think compassion is okay, if it means that you know who you really are and also know who the other really is and that the other can know too. So you remain at ease in the face of dis/un-ease, you are not joining the chain of pain. What is problematic though is empathy, because that would mean giving up your ease in the face of dis/un-ease so that you can relate, and then you are joining the chain of pain. And so you have two lost souls instead of one.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 1:56:14 GMT -5
I have to say: your reply rubs me wrong. So, my response will be to ignore it. This is an example of negative emotions which, untended, escalated. At some point, replying and not being understood started to become annoying and frustrating. I was aware of it, but I kept replying and ignoring it, from the wrong motivation of attempting to make myself understood, and why-not, to even offer a better path to another. As expected, this escalated into receiving a reply that caused a more negative emotion. So, it isn't his fault for that. It is mine. I could've avoided it (not necessarily by ignoring), but I was pressed a little by other obligations, and negligently let this follow its course. It wasn't random; it wasn't inflicted on me; it wasn't an intended experience, nor a planned one. But, it is a refresh lesson, and I'll take this from it. This is a good point. People learn to tolerate negative emotions. It all starts there. And that is very detrimental to the body or a community in the long run. At some point, both break down, and what we get is a so-called 'terminal' disease or a war. As Laozi said, a 1000 mile journey starts with a small step. Better deal with it when it is still in the beginning stages and still manageable.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 2:15:50 GMT -5
Those individuals who learn will experience sooner more satisfying realities than those who don't. People are at different levels, as students in a school. You could expose a first grader to material for the fourth grade, but the first grader wouldn't be able to learn anything from it. From the latter, the smarter ones'll realize the disconnect, but the majority will behave ridiculously, and painfully for themselves. You can see this all around ourselves, on this board, among the people you interface with in person, you can see this in the media, and in the told history. Even when a lesson is over your head, you could still get something useful from it with a proper attitude. Everybody can hurt only himself, and even that is only in a nightmare. Thanks. This is pretty close to what I mean by 'themes/explorations'.....what you call a 'first grader' will explore different themes to a fourth grader. I differ in that I believe that sometimes just having the experience is enough i.e a week old baby isn't going to consciously learn something profound from an experience, though the experience is still 'learned from' at another level e.g higher self, inner being, unconscious mind, oversoul....I'm not too particular about the labels. Here's a quote from Seth:
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Post by Reefs on Oct 12, 2023 2:26:21 GMT -5
Reefs-Grandma, I am mindful of your political line in the sand, hence my one line reply. It's been a good discussion so far. Carry on. ++++++ Just out curiosity, how much time do you guys spend each day following the news, reading, watching, discussing? And do you check the news at a specific time of the day or do you check the news randomly around the clock? Or are some of you guys on a news detox?
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Post by justlikeyou on Oct 12, 2023 5:57:51 GMT -5
Reefs-Grandma, I am mindful of your political line in the sand, hence my one line reply. It's been a good discussion so far. Carry on. ++++++ Just out curiosity, how much time do you guys spend each day following the news, reading, watching, discussing? And do you check the news at a specific time of the day or do you check the news randomly around the clock? Or are some of you guys on a news detox? There are a number of alt news sites that I check randomly during the day. One in particular comes out in the evening. These days I scan the summary of its talking points to decide if I need to watch to the video. The summary is usually enough. If it is a very busy news day I might check to see what the MSM is reporting/parroting. It's good to know what the otherside is saying and/or wants the unsuspecting public at large to believe.
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 7:30:27 GMT -5
I can see why that could rub you wrong. SDP has direct experience of a 'dark night of the soul', and I surmise that intrinsic to any 'dark night', there is a sense of choicelessness to it. I am reminded of a guy called Jeff Foster...who is known in non-dual circles. Recently had Lyme disease and documented it. It left him begging to God for mercy. He's on the mend now. One thing I can say with sureness, is that in these moments of begging, all belief goes out of the window. Every scrap of spiritual ideology. And I think there's value in that for most folks that experience it, as awful as it is in the moment. To be clear, I absolutely do not wish that for you or anyone! I have learned that people have their own unique spiritual paths with their own lessons...some suffer, some don't. I have come to appreciate that diversity. And for those that do suffer, I wish for them to speedily move through it. I need to start my thread, then I'll be on everybody's ____ list. Far far too late to start worrin' 'bout that ... (for you, that is)
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 7:35:26 GMT -5
Those individuals who learn will experience sooner more satisfying realities than those who don't. People are at different levels, as students in a school. You could expose a first grader to material for the fourth grade, but the first grader wouldn't be able to learn anything from it. From the latter, the smarter ones'll realize the disconnect, but the majority will behave ridiculously, and painfully for themselves. You can see this all around ourselves, on this board, among the people you interface with in person, you can see this in the media, and in the told history. Even when a lesson is over your head, you could still get something useful from it with a proper attitude. Everybody can hurt only himself, and even that is only in a nightmare. Thanks. This is pretty close to what I mean by 'themes/explorations'.....what you call a 'first grader' will explore different themes to a fourth grader. I differ in that I believe that sometimes just having the experience is enough i.e a week old baby isn't going to consciously learn something profound from an experience, though the experience is still 'learned from' at another level e.g higher self, inner being, unconscious mind, oversoul....I'm not too particular about the labels. The levels are deceptive, however. Seems to me that Zen addresses this with multiple pointers, including "beginner's mind" and "the stink of Zen". Isn't it what new-ager's mean with "as above, so below"? Even more obvious with the Christians, and both Zen and the Christians both recognize the levels but put them in context. The core problem with the levels, of course, is self-deception and ego, but there's even something more subtly profound that that going on.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 12, 2023 8:03:13 GMT -5
I came here just now to start another thread, checked my notifications. At some point LOA breaks down, just breaks, period. Nonsense. Of course it can be explained using LOA. It's just a matter of right context. You approach it from the wrong context. Your context is too small and you also hold some erroneous beliefs about creation in general as well as the nature of reality. What's breaking down at some point is your own incoherent hotchpotch of ideas. AFAIAC, sometimes s**t just happens. I think in terms of ~your being attracts your life~, rather than LOA. There is a continuum running from order to chaos. I have no problem with LOA operating on most of that continuum, say the upper 95%. One's being puts one somewhere on that continuum. At the ~top~ you find flow and synchronicities and a sense that everything is operating perfectly as it should be. Most people live somewhere in the middle. What I've been writing about, since last Saturday, poking, exploring, is the bottom 5% where chaos reigns. This is the realm of hardened criminals, terrorists, serial killers and others of the sort, they have no rules. This is where s**t can just happen. A group of the nasty guys of the 5%-and-lower have imposed their will and chaos upon some innocents of the higher continuum. I've ~battled~ ZD (mostly) over this issue for years. I don't mind calling my view a paradigm, I haven't made it up. For me it explains certain aspects of what happens. All this, in a nutshell, is why I said at some point LOA breaks down. You'll never convince me that the babies and toddlers who were decapitated are part of a natural flow of the universe, they are not responsible in any way for getting their heads cup off. They got caught up in an unnatural flow of the ~5%~ chaos. Everybody does not live at the same level of being, there's a continuum. And now we have a *more ordered group* trying to restore and maintain order, fighting the no-rules-chaos of a 5%, and lower-down to a negative 1%. You could even say the 2,3,4,5% are caught up in the really-nasty-1%. IOW, we have a terrible mess. There is no good outcome coming. I think we've past the point of a better-outcome.
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 8:03:16 GMT -5
There's controversy around this news item...the fog of war is confusing. That's not to say I believe it is false, or that I'd be surprised, but the source of this news items is Israel, so....right now, I think caution is sensible. However, I agree that LOA cannot adequately explain our reality...or the human experience, even if it is a universal principle. LOA is not meant to explain reality. LOA is meant to explain the process of creation. " ... butt! ... butt! ...."
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 12, 2023 8:06:54 GMT -5
I need to start my thread, then I'll be on everybody's ____ list. Far far too late to start worrin' 'bout that ... (for you, that is) No problem. ............ I'm built to stand alone, when need be, which is mostly always...
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 8:14:29 GMT -5
Reefs-Grandma, I am mindful of your political line in the sand, hence my one line reply. It's been a good discussion so far. Carry on. ++++++ Just out curiosity, how much time do you guys spend each day following the news, reading, watching, discussing? And do you check the news at a specific time of the day or do you check the news randomly around the clock? Or are some of you guys on a news detox? Always a junkie, but this latest turn of events has narrowed the sources that aren't completely polluted to an even narrower set than in the last decade or so. Certain situations are quite revealing, despite the seemingly ever-intensifying problem of allowing the absence of deception to leak out from around the sides of what gets presented.
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 8:21:28 GMT -5
Thanks. This is pretty close to what I mean by 'themes/explorations'.....what you call a 'first grader' will explore different themes to a fourth grader. I differ in that I believe that sometimes just having the experience is enough i.e a week old baby isn't going to consciously learn something profound from an experience, though the experience is still 'learned from' at another level e.g higher self, inner being, unconscious mind, oversoul....I'm not too particular about the labels. Here's a quote from Seth: This of course implicates the question of complicity in a network of pain and trauma. It also suggests a sort of balance that certainly manifests in the bigger picture of the natural world, but that doesn't seem to me to fit with the human psyche. Perhaps my take on this is unduly colored by the notion of supply and demand. Would we really expect there to be as many volunteer wombs as there are curious souls? I also hesitate to completely embrace such a self-sufficient explanation. This channeling has some compelling aspects to it, for sure, but not all of my reservations are grounded in common mind, like, at all.
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Post by laughter on Oct 12, 2023 8:22:47 GMT -5
Far far too late to start worrin' 'bout that ... (for you, that is) No problem. ............ I'm built to stand alone, when need be, which is mostly always... Oh I bet you can guess the tune that played in my head.
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