Multiple Realities

[stardustpilgrim]

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

[andrew]

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

I reflected on this for a few minutes. I'm currently house sitting for 2 dogs and 2 cats. Even in the absence of abstract thought (on their part), I'd say that each of those animals perceive/experience me quite differently. And I relate to each one slightly different (partly based on my perception of how they perceive me!).

I'm not sure what that means in terms of imagination. Maybe that we can't ever escape it. But it makes me realize again that for me, life is principally about relating/relationship.

[inavalan]

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

I don't think so.

That view is a dead-end.

Experience is unreliable.

No.

[inavalan]

Jul 16, 2023 22:36:35 GMT -5 andrew said:

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

I reflected on this for a few minutes. I'm currently house sitting for 2 dogs and 2 cats. Even in the absence of abstract thought (on their part), I'd say that each of those animals perceive/experience me quite differently. And I relate to each one slightly different (partly based on my perception of how they perceive me!).

I'm not sure what that means in terms of imagination. Maybe that we can't ever escape it. But it makes me realize again that for me, life is principally about relating/relationship.

That's one useful aspect of a true enlightenment / realization: to really know what (your) life is about.

[stardustpilgrim]

Jul 17, 2023 0:50:30 GMT -5 inavalan said:

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

I don't think so.

That view is a dead-end.

Experience is unreliable.

No.

I appreciate your input. I'm not talking about ALL possibilities of ALL of REALITY, the complete structure of everything. I'm just talking about our current experience of ordinary events.

Past experience means past experience here on ST's, the context is obvious. You weren't here for that past experience. Zen GM Reefs is holding this thing together and sdp appreciates it. I don't want to go back to the days of mud slinging and food fights and almost everything imaginable. My point is, without certain rules, it's in our nature to make-things-messy. Life is messy because we have conflicting viewpoints, *~personal~* conflicting viewpoints, not simply because that's just what All This is doing (not that anything happens outside All That Is). ST's forum is just a tiny cutout of the bigger world.

So by one reality I mean, take for example the lady who got kidnapped the other day, and was missing for 2 days and then showed up at her home. From reports it sounded like the kidnapper used a little kid for bait to entrap the lady. One set of events happened, but from her viewpoint and from the kidnapper's viewpoint things were very different. One set of physical events happened.

In Ukraine war is occurring. A missile is fired, buildings fall, people die, one set of events occur. But for Putin and Russia, there is one intention and one interpretation, for Ukrainians, the same event occurred, but their side of the story has different effects and a different interpretation. There is one set of facts concerning what happens, one set of physical events are occurring in Ukraine.

On ST's we have ZGMR's as Sheriff. There isn't an arbitrator for the Ukraine war. We have an odd political situation. NATO basically said last weekend, Ukraine cannot come into NATO now, but when the war is over they are welcome to come into NATO. That's pretty nutty, but maybe necessary to avoid a World War. (Not meaning to get political, it's just an extreme example of a food fight). I'm just trying to keep things real here. Life is messy, to deny that is well......

Maybe a better example, between ST's food fights and the Ukraine war, the Writers and Actors strike. And, have you ever been the person, I can't find my glasses, where are my glasses? Help me find my glasses. And someone points to the top of your head.

[zendancer]

One reality; billions of meta-realities. The goal of Zen and other non-dual traditions is to help people get out of their heads so that they can discern the difference.

[stardustpilgrim]

Jul 17, 2023 9:25:13 GMT -5 zendancer said:

One reality; billions of meta-realities. The goal of Zen and other non-dual traditions is to help people get out for their heads so that they can discern the difference.

Yes, but...

[Reefs]

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

You create your own reality (as does everybody else). Because you get what you think about (as does everybody else) and only you can think your thoughts, no one else can do that for you. Which also means you create your own truths (as does everybody else). And yet, there is no separation, there are no separate individual points of consciousness, only consciousness streaming and extensions of Source.

[Reefs]

Jul 17, 2023 8:55:00 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jul 17, 2023 0:50:30 GMT -5 inavalan said:

I don't think so.

That view is a dead-end.

Experience is unreliable.

No.

I appreciate your input. I'm not talking about ALL possibilities of ALL of REALITY, the complete structure of everything. I'm just talking about our current experience of ordinary events.

Past experience means past experience here on ST's, the context is obvious. You weren't here for that past experience. Zen GM Reefs is holding this thing together and sdp appreciates it. I don't want to go back to the days of mud slinging and food fights and almost everything imaginable. My point is, without certain rules, it's in our nature to make-things-messy. Life is messy because we have conflicting viewpoints, *~personal~* conflicting viewpoints, not simply because that's just what All This is doing (not that anything happens outside All That Is). ST's forum is just a tiny cutout of the bigger world.

So by one reality I mean, take for example the lady who got kidnapped the other day, and was missing for 2 days and then showed up at her home. From reports it sounded like the kidnapper used a little kid for bait to entrap the lady. One set of events happened, but from her viewpoint and from the kidnapper's viewpoint things were very different. One set of physical events happened.

In Ukraine war is occurring. A missile is fired, buildings fall, people die, one set of events occur. But for Putin and Russia, there is one intention and one interpretation, for Ukrainians, the same event occurred, but their side of the story has different effects and a different interpretation. There is one set of facts concerning what happens, one set of physical events are occurring in Ukraine.

On ST's we have ZGMR's as Sheriff. There isn't an arbitrator for the Ukraine war. We have an odd political situation. NATO basically said last weekend, Ukraine cannot come into NATO now, but when the war is over they are welcome to come into NATO. That's pretty nutty, but maybe necessary to avoid a World War. (Not meaning to get political, it's just an extreme example of a food fight). I'm just trying to keep things real here. Life is messy, to deny that is well......

Maybe a better example, between ST's food fights and the Ukraine war, the Writers and Actors strike. And, have you ever been the person, I can't find my glasses, where are my glasses? Help me find my glasses. And someone points to the top of your head.

Maybe Wattles can help put things into perspective (keep in mind that he wrote that in the 1910's...)

You must learn to see the world as being produced by evolution, as a something that is evolving and becoming, not as a finished work. Millions of years ago God worked with very low and crude forms of life, low and crude, yet each perfect after its kind. Higher and more complex organisms, animal and vegetable, appeared through the successive ages; the earth passed through stage after stage in its unfolding, each stage perfect in itself, and to be succeeded by a higher one.

What I wish you to note is that the so-called “lower organisms” are as perfect after their kind as the higher ones; that the world in the Eocene period was perfect for that period; it was perfect, but God’s work was not finished. This is true of the world today. Physically, socially, and industrially it is all good, and it is all perfect. It is not complete anywhere or in any part, but so far as the handiwork of God has gone it is perfect.

THIS MUST BE YOUR POINT OF VIEW: THAT THE WORLD AND ALL IT CONTAINS IS PERFECT, THOUGH NOT COMPLETED.

“All’s right with the world.” That is the great fact. There is nothing wrong with anything; there is nothing wrong with anybody.

All the facts of life you must contemplate from this standpoint.

There is nothing wrong with nature. Nature is a great advancing presence working beneficently for the happiness of all. All things in Nature are good; she has no evil. She is not completed; for creation is still unfinished, but she is going on to give to man even more bountifully than she has given to him in the past. Nature is a partial expression of God, and God is love. She is perfect but not complete.

So it is of human society and government. What though there are trusts and combinations of capital and strikes and lockouts and so on. All these things are part of the forward movement; they are incidental to the evolutionary process of completing society. When it is complete there will be harmony; but it cannot be completed without them. J. P. Morgan is as necessary to the coming social order as the strange animals of the age of reptiles were to the life of the succeeding period, and just as these animals were perfect after their kind, so Morgan is perfect after his kind.

Behold it is all very good. See government, and industry as being perfect now, and as advancing rapidly toward being complete; then you will understand that there is nothing to fear, no cause for anxiety, nothing to worry about. Never complain of any of these things. They are perfect; this is the very best possible world for the stage of development man has reached.

This will sound like rank folly to many, perhaps to most people. “What!” they will say, “are not child labor and the exploitation of men and women in filthy and unsanitary factories evil things? Aren’t saloons evil? Do you mean to say that we shall accept all these and call them good?”

Child labor and similar things are no more evil than the way of living and the habits and practices of the cave dweller were evil. His ways were those of the savage stage of man’s growth, and for that stage they were perfect. Our Industrial practices are those of the savage stage of industrial development, and they are also perfect.

Nothing better is possible until we cease to be mental savages in industry and business, and become men and women. This can only come about by the rise of the whole race to a higher viewpoint. And this can only come about by the rise of such individuals here and there as are ready for the higher viewpoint. The cure for all this inharmoniousness lies not with the masters or employers but with the workers themselves.

Whenever they reach a higher viewpoint, whenever they shall desire to do so, they can establish complete brotherhood and harmony in Industry; they have the numbers and the power. They are getting now what they desire. Whenever they desire more in the way of a higher, purer, more harmonious life, they will receive more. True, they want more now, but they only want more of the things that make for animal enjoyment, and so industry remains in the savage, brutal, animal stage; when the workers begin to rise to the mental plane of living and ask for more of the things that make for the life of the mind and soul, industry will at once be raised above the plane of savagery and brutality. But it is perfect now upon its plane, behold, in fact it is all very good.

So it is true of saloons and dens of vice. If the majority of the people desire these things, it is right and necessary that they should have them. When the majority desires a world without such discords, they will create such a world. So long as men and women are on the plane of bestial thought, so long the social order will be in part disorder, and will show bestial manifestations. The people make society what it is, and as the people rise above the bestial thought, society will rise above the beastly in its manifestations. But a society which thinks in a bestial way must have saloons and dives; it is perfect after its kind, as the world was in the Eocene period, and very good.

All this does not prevent you from working for better things.

You can work to complete an unfinished society, instead of to renovate a decaying one; and you can work with a better heart and a more hopeful spirit. It will make an immense difference with your faith and spirit whether you look upon civilization as a good thing that is becoming better or as a bad and evil thing that is decaying. One viewpoint gives you an advancing and expanding mind and the other gives you a descending and decreasing mind.

One viewpoint will make you grow greater and the other will inevitably cause you to grow smaller. One will enable you to work for the eternal things; to do large works in a great way toward the completing of all that is incomplete and inharmonious; and the other will make you a mere patchwork reformer, working almost without hope to save a few lost souls from what you will grow to consider a lost and doomed world.

So you see it makes a vast difference to you, this matter of the social viewpoint. “All’s right with the world. Nothing can possibly be wrong but my personal attitude, and I will make that right. I will see the facts of nature and all the events, circumstances, and conditions of society, politics, government, and industry from the highest viewpoint. It is all perfect, though incomplete. It is all the handiwork of God; behold, it is all very good.”

archive.org/details/TheScienceOfBeingGreat_2020

[stardustpilgrim]

Jul 17, 2023 11:50:20 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jul 16, 2023 21:41:43 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

You see them everywhere, every day, you can't avoid them. There would be no TV, no movies, no novels, without them. You've probably encountered double realities in the past week, if not today. There's only one reality, one set of actual events. But everyone has their own viewpoint of what occurred or what's occurring. So because of this there are multiple realities. Probably mutually agreed divorce is probably relatively rare. One's relatively happy, one's not, two different realities. And the unhappy one usually keeps it a secret for a while, days, weeks, months, sometimes years. So there's some acting going on. I could go on giving examples. There are small cases, there are national cases, conflicts between countries. One set of events, what happened, two different interpretations. And it isn't just between people, it happens all the time, within, (some) people have war within. Most people probably have some kind of war within, it's the cause of stress. What's one example of past trauma on present reality? PTSD. What makes people? Their own private interpretation of what happens, because of a certain psychology. Is an interpretation imaginary? Yes. What actually happened, not imaginary. But then most everything that happens, happens because of interpretations, that's the meaning of ego. It would happen, even here, just little squiggles on a computer screen, and pictures, , constantly, without rules. How do I know? Past experience.

Oneness, one set of actually occurring events. Duality, multiple interpretations of events. Yea, sure, this is the meaning of the word imagination. But this is also the primary reason for nasty events of passion, and many times premeditated crime. Tell me I'm wrong. Seeing one set of facts, no-stress. But can we avoid dealing with the multiple interpretations? So who is imagining what?

You create your own reality (as does everybody else). Because you get what you think about (as does everybody else) and only you can think your thoughts, no one else can do that for you. Which also means you create your own truths (as does everybody else). And yet, there is no separation, there are no separate individual points of consciousness, only consciousness streaming and extensions of Source.

No problem with that, but I say for 95% of people this occurs unconsciously, people are caught in their own webs and don't know this and don't know how to escape. All religions knew this originally, and have given us ~side-planks~ to keep us oriented. People don't realize, what you do to others you are doing to yourself. ~We~ are a tangled mess of thoughts, feelings and doings, and we form tribes, live in tribes. Thoughts and feelings and doings are kinds of tools, we think they are self, and we think they are leverage in-the-world. Thoughts, feelings-emotions, doings just perpetuate.

[Reefs]

Jul 17, 2023 12:13:26 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jul 17, 2023 11:50:20 GMT -5 Reefs said:

You create your own reality (as does everybody else). Because you get what you think about (as does everybody else) and only you can think your thoughts, no one else can do that for you. Which also means you create your own truths (as does everybody else). And yet, there is no separation, there are no separate individual points of consciousness, only consciousness streaming and extensions of Source.

No problem with that, but I say for 95% of people this occurs unconsciously, people are caught in their own webs and don't know this and don't know how to escape. All religions knew this originally, and have given us ~side-planks~ to keep us oriented. People don't realize, what you do to others you are doing to yourself. ~We~ are a tangled mess of thoughts, feelings and doings, and we form tribes, live in tribes. Thoughts and feelings and doings are kinds of tools, we think they are self, and we think they are leverage in-the-world. Thoughts, feelings-emotions, doings just perpetuate.

Yes, it's all a matter of awareness. As Abe always say, good feels good, bad feels bad. That's all one needs to understand. And if people would actually understand that, they wouldn't be such a "tangled mess of thoughts, feelings and doings". When we are born, we actually do understand that, deeply and truly and also live by it. But over time, with socialization, we come to believe that what feels bad to us is actually good for us and what feels really good is actually really really bad. No wonder people are confused and don't know which end is up. 

[inavalan]

Jul 17, 2023 8:55:00 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jul 17, 2023 0:50:30 GMT -5 inavalan said:

I don't think so.

That view is a dead-end.

Experience is unreliable.

No.

I appreciate your input. I'm not talking about ALL possibilities of ALL of REALITY, the complete structure of everything. I'm just talking about our current experience of ordinary events.

Past experience means past experience here on ST's, the context is obvious. You weren't here for that past experience. Zen GM Reefs is holding this thing together and sdp appreciates it. I don't want to go back to the days of mud slinging and food fights and almost everything imaginable. My point is, without certain rules, it's in our nature to make-things-messy. Life is messy because we have conflicting viewpoints, *~personal~* conflicting viewpoints, not simply because that's just what All This is doing (not that anything happens outside All That Is). ST's forum is just a tiny cutout of the bigger world.

So by one reality I mean, take for example the lady who got kidnapped the other day, and was missing for 2 days and then showed up at her home. From reports it sounded like the kidnapper used a little kid for bait to entrap the lady. One set of events happened, but from her viewpoint and from the kidnapper's viewpoint things were very different. One set of physical events happened.

In Ukraine war is occurring. A missile is fired, buildings fall, people die, one set of events occur. But for Putin and Russia, there is one intention and one interpretation, for Ukrainians, the same event occurred, but their side of the story has different effects and a different interpretation. There is one set of facts concerning what happens, one set of physical events are occurring in Ukraine.

On ST's we have ZGMR's as Sheriff. There isn't an arbitrator for the Ukraine war. We have an odd political situation. NATO basically said last weekend, Ukraine cannot come into NATO now, but when the war is over they are welcome to come into NATO. That's pretty nutty, but maybe necessary to avoid a World War. (Not meaning to get political, it's just an extreme example of a food fight). I'm just trying to keep things real here. Life is messy, to deny that is well......

Maybe a better example, between ST's food fights and the Ukraine war, the Writers and Actors strike. And, have you ever been the person, I can't find my glasses, where are my glasses? Help me find my glasses. And someone points to the top of your head.

My view is that there is no single physical reality; there is no objective reference.

As I understand, your view is that there is one physical reality that is just interpreted differently.

I am also saying, that the reality you perceive through your five physical senses is created by your subconscious, so you observe a subjective reality, in which you "live". That reality is created as a result of your subconscious connection to everything, and it is shaped according to your beliefs, expectations, focus, conscious and unconscious.

One important aspect of our experience here in the physical reality is that each one of us can't be hurt, nor helped by anybody and anything without our own individual acceptance at a subconscious level. This also means that I can't hurt or help anybody, without their acceptance at some level, either.

These apply to each of the examples you gave. In each one, the apparent victim accepted the experience beforehand, as the apparent perpetrator did too. It isn't about each of them interpreting differently an experience or the context.

This doesn't mean that the victim and the perpetrator sat down, negotiated, and decided together. They are elements of gestalts, have free will, make their individual choices, dynamically joining realities and leaving realities, accordingly. 

Your fear, hate, anger, ..., cause you to join realities in which you'll experience more and more of the same. There is no randomnicity that can serendipitously change that. To get out of it, you have to change your beliefs, expectations, focus, which result in a change of your emotions, and that will result in your joining another kind of reality.

[laughter]

Jul 17, 2023 12:11:58 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jul 17, 2023 8:55:00 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

I appreciate your input. I'm not talking about ALL possibilities of ALL of REALITY, the complete structure of everything. I'm just talking about our current experience of ordinary events.

Past experience means past experience here on ST's, the context is obvious. You weren't here for that past experience. Zen GM Reefs is holding this thing together and sdp appreciates it. I don't want to go back to the days of mud slinging and food fights and almost everything imaginable. My point is, without certain rules, it's in our nature to make-things-messy. Life is messy because we have conflicting viewpoints, *~personal~* conflicting viewpoints, not simply because that's just what All This is doing (not that anything happens outside All That Is). ST's forum is just a tiny cutout of the bigger world.

So by one reality I mean, take for example the lady who got kidnapped the other day, and was missing for 2 days and then showed up at her home. From reports it sounded like the kidnapper used a little kid for bait to entrap the lady. One set of events happened, but from her viewpoint and from the kidnapper's viewpoint things were very different. One set of physical events happened.

In Ukraine war is occurring. A missile is fired, buildings fall, people die, one set of events occur. But for Putin and Russia, there is one intention and one interpretation, for Ukrainians, the same event occurred, but their side of the story has different effects and a different interpretation. There is one set of facts concerning what happens, one set of physical events are occurring in Ukraine.

On ST's we have ZGMR's as Sheriff. There isn't an arbitrator for the Ukraine war. We have an odd political situation. NATO basically said last weekend, Ukraine cannot come into NATO now, but when the war is over they are welcome to come into NATO. That's pretty nutty, but maybe necessary to avoid a World War. (Not meaning to get political, it's just an extreme example of a food fight). I'm just trying to keep things real here. Life is messy, to deny that is well......

Maybe a better example, between ST's food fights and the Ukraine war, the Writers and Actors strike. And, have you ever been the person, I can't find my glasses, where are my glasses? Help me find my glasses. And someone points to the top of your head.

Maybe Wattles can help put things into perspective (keep in mind that he wrote that in the 1910's...)

You must learn to see the world as being produced by evolution, as a something that is evolving and becoming, not as a finished work. Millions of years ago God worked with very low and crude forms of life, low and crude, yet each perfect after its kind. Higher and more complex organisms, animal and vegetable, appeared through the successive ages; the earth passed through stage after stage in its unfolding, each stage perfect in itself, and to be succeeded by a higher one.

What I wish you to note is that the so-called “lower organisms” are as perfect after their kind as the higher ones; that the world in the Eocene period was perfect for that period; it was perfect, but God’s work was not finished. This is true of the world today. Physically, socially, and industrially it is all good, and it is all perfect. It is not complete anywhere or in any part, but so far as the handiwork of God has gone it is perfect.

THIS MUST BE YOUR POINT OF VIEW: THAT THE WORLD AND ALL IT CONTAINS IS PERFECT, THOUGH NOT COMPLETED.

“All’s right with the world.” That is the great fact. There is nothing wrong with anything; there is nothing wrong with anybody.

All the facts of life you must contemplate from this standpoint.

There is nothing wrong with nature. Nature is a great advancing presence working beneficently for the happiness of all. All things in Nature are good; she has no evil. She is not completed; for creation is still unfinished, but she is going on to give to man even more bountifully than she has given to him in the past. Nature is a partial expression of God, and God is love. She is perfect but not complete.

So it is of human society and government. What though there are trusts and combinations of capital and strikes and lockouts and so on. All these things are part of the forward movement; they are incidental to the evolutionary process of completing society. When it is complete there will be harmony; but it cannot be completed without them. J. P. Morgan is as necessary to the coming social order as the strange animals of the age of reptiles were to the life of the succeeding period, and just as these animals were perfect after their kind, so Morgan is perfect after his kind.

Behold it is all very good. See government, and industry as being perfect now, and as advancing rapidly toward being complete; then you will understand that there is nothing to fear, no cause for anxiety, nothing to worry about. Never complain of any of these things. They are perfect; this is the very best possible world for the stage of development man has reached.

This will sound like rank folly to many, perhaps to most people. “What!” they will say, “are not child labor and the exploitation of men and women in filthy and unsanitary factories evil things? Aren’t saloons evil? Do you mean to say that we shall accept all these and call them good?”

Child labor and similar things are no more evil than the way of living and the habits and practices of the cave dweller were evil. His ways were those of the savage stage of man’s growth, and for that stage they were perfect. Our Industrial practices are those of the savage stage of industrial development, and they are also perfect.

Nothing better is possible until we cease to be mental savages in industry and business, and become men and women. This can only come about by the rise of the whole race to a higher viewpoint. And this can only come about by the rise of such individuals here and there as are ready for the higher viewpoint. The cure for all this inharmoniousness lies not with the masters or employers but with the workers themselves.

Whenever they reach a higher viewpoint, whenever they shall desire to do so, they can establish complete brotherhood and harmony in Industry; they have the numbers and the power. They are getting now what they desire. Whenever they desire more in the way of a higher, purer, more harmonious life, they will receive more. True, they want more now, but they only want more of the things that make for animal enjoyment, and so industry remains in the savage, brutal, animal stage; when the workers begin to rise to the mental plane of living and ask for more of the things that make for the life of the mind and soul, industry will at once be raised above the plane of savagery and brutality. But it is perfect now upon its plane, behold, in fact it is all very good.

So it is true of saloons and dens of vice. If the majority of the people desire these things, it is right and necessary that they should have them. When the majority desires a world without such discords, they will create such a world. So long as men and women are on the plane of bestial thought, so long the social order will be in part disorder, and will show bestial manifestations. The people make society what it is, and as the people rise above the bestial thought, society will rise above the beastly in its manifestations. But a society which thinks in a bestial way must have saloons and dives; it is perfect after its kind, as the world was in the Eocene period, and very good.

All this does not prevent you from working for better things.

You can work to complete an unfinished society, instead of to renovate a decaying one; and you can work with a better heart and a more hopeful spirit. It will make an immense difference with your faith and spirit whether you look upon civilization as a good thing that is becoming better or as a bad and evil thing that is decaying. One viewpoint gives you an advancing and expanding mind and the other gives you a descending and decreasing mind.

One viewpoint will make you grow greater and the other will inevitably cause you to grow smaller. One will enable you to work for the eternal things; to do large works in a great way toward the completing of all that is incomplete and inharmonious; and the other will make you a mere patchwork reformer, working almost without hope to save a few lost souls from what you will grow to consider a lost and doomed world.

So you see it makes a vast difference to you, this matter of the social viewpoint. “All’s right with the world. Nothing can possibly be wrong but my personal attitude, and I will make that right. I will see the facts of nature and all the events, circumstances, and conditions of society, politics, government, and industry from the highest viewpoint. It is all perfect, though incomplete. It is all the handiwork of God; behold, it is all very good.”

archive.org/details/TheScienceOfBeingGreat_2020

An ever changing and shifting, dynamic perfection.

[Reefs]

Jul 21, 2023 7:17:23 GMT -5 laughter said:

Jul 17, 2023 12:11:58 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Maybe Wattles can help put things into perspective (keep in mind that he wrote that in the 1910's...)

An ever changing and shifting, dynamic perfection.

Exactly. Just don't rack your brain and try to crack the riddle and demystify the mystery. It will either end in confusion (if can't come up with an explanation) or in the profane (if you actually come up with an explanation).

Remember this one?



"I am mysterious folks, live with it!" 


Perfect! 



And I found this one in the same book quoted above:


O, when I am safe in my sylvan home,
I tread on the pride of Greece and Rome;
And when I am stretched beneath the pines,
Where the evening star so holy shines,
I laugh at the lore and the pride of man,
At the sophist schools, and the learned clan;
For what are they all, in their high conceit,
When man in the bush with God may meet?

- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Bingo! That could have actually come from Zhuangzi, hehe. 

[Deleted]

What if the multiple realities are just a glitch in the simulation.