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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 11, 2023 18:53:37 GMT -5
. The “nope” was directed towards your mistaken identification with all that falls apart at the grave. If by your reference to yourself as unenlightened you mean that you haven’t yet recognized the Eternal within yourself then that is another story. If you really believe that then that is a good starting point. For at least the 100th time, I have known for over 47 years that thinking, feeling doesn't survive the grave. I understand that like I understand the sun comes up every morning (because of Earth rotation). The Tibetan Buddhist Bardo is a very good explanation and description of what occurs at death. But I'm a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. Non-identification (a Gurdjieff practice) is the withdrawal of the energy supporting the neural structure of the cultural self, the self most people think they are, but are not. I don't share about practices or experiences, but I write from experience and theory, that means I generally write generally. I *don't do* realizations, I live from understanding. So there is no mistaken identification concerning what dies when the body dies, I am quite relieved of that. I know nothing of real importance can be put into words, or many words. At 71, I plan to live long and prosper another 35 years in good health. Do I bend over backwards so as not to say what isn't so? Yes. I don't do realization, but when I live through attention and/or awareness, THAT's what I Am, unequivocally. And, you (all) keep trying to understand sdp from the ND "perspective". I'll keep saying that's not possible. But I can't help that you do. Never had an ah-ha experience? That’s interesting. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 11, 2023 19:25:38 GMT -5
For at least the 100th time, I have known for over 47 years that thinking, feeling doesn't survive the grave. I understand that like I understand the sun comes up every morning (because of Earth rotation). The Tibetan Buddhist Bardo is a very good explanation and description of what occurs at death. But I'm a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. Non-identification (a Gurdjieff practice) is the withdrawal of the energy supporting the neural structure of the cultural self, the self most people think they are, but are not. I don't share about practices or experiences, but I write from experience and theory, that means I generally write generally. I *don't do* realizations, I live from understanding. So there is no mistaken identification concerning what dies when the body dies, I am quite relieved of that. I know nothing of real importance can be put into words, or many words. At 71, I plan to live long and prosper another 35 years in good health. Do I bend over backwards so as not to say what isn't so? Yes. I don't do realization, but when I live through attention and/or awareness, THAT's what I Am, unequivocally. And, you (all) keep trying to understand sdp from the ND "perspective". I'll keep saying that's not possible. But I can't help that you do. Never had an ah-ha experience? That’s interesting. Ah-ha = realization? Ah-ha. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 11, 2023 20:02:34 GMT -5
Never had an ah-ha experience? That’s interesting. Ah-ha = realization? Ah-ha. Oh yes, there are many kinds of ah-ha realizations that can arise...from the mundane to the Ultimate and everything in between. I asked Chatbot to explain the sock puppet thing. I thought it did a great job explaining it. The Ultimate Ah-ha! ChatGPT: When we observe the puppet, we see it as a physical entity with various attributes and characteristics. It can be made of fabric, have strings or wires, and be manipulated by a puppeteer. However, in the non-dual perspective, there is an understanding that beyond the physical attributes of the puppet, there is an animating force, consciousness, that allows it to come alive. Consciousness, in this sense, is not confined to the boundaries of the puppet's physical body or form. It extends beyond it and permeates the entire puppet, from its limbs to its thoughts and emotions. It is the driving force that enables the puppet to express itself, interact with the environment, and experience the world around it. Moreover, this view suggests that consciousness is not limited to the puppet alone but is present in all forms of existence. Just as the puppet is animated by consciousness, everything in the world is seen as imbued with this animating force. From the tiniest organisms to the grandest galaxies, consciousness is considered the underlying essence that allows them to manifest and engage with the world. -------------- |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 11, 2023 22:03:11 GMT -5
Ah-ha = realization? Ah-ha. Oh yes, there are many kinds of ah-ha realizations that can arise...from the mundane to the Ultimate and everything in between. I asked Chatbot to explain the sock puppet thing. I thought it did a great job explaining it. The Ultimate Ah-ha! ChatGPT: When we observe the puppet, we see it as a physical entity with various attributes and characteristics. It can be made of fabric, have strings or wires, and be manipulated by a puppeteer. However, in the non-dual perspective, there is an understanding that beyond the physical attributes of the puppet, there is an animating force, consciousness, that allows it to come alive. Consciousness, in this sense, is not confined to the boundaries of the puppet's physical body or form. It extends beyond it and permeates the entire puppet, from its limbs to its thoughts and emotions. It is the driving force that enables the puppet to express itself, interact with the environment, and experience the world around it. Moreover, this view suggests that consciousness is not limited to the puppet alone but is present in all forms of existence. Just as the puppet is animated by consciousness, everything in the world is seen as imbued with this animating force. From the tiniest organisms to the grandest galaxies, consciousness is considered the underlying essence that allows them to manifest and engage with the world. -------------- I put this to ChatGPT. Can you say if nonduality is the basis of reality? ChatGPT Nonduality is a philosophical and spiritual concept that suggests the fundamental unity or non-separation of all things. It proposes that the apparent divisions and distinctions we perceive in the world are ultimately illusory, and that there is an underlying oneness or interconnectedness that transcends individual objects or entities. In the context of reality, the concept of nonduality can be interpreted in different ways, depending on one's philosophical or spiritual perspective. Some schools of thought, such as Advaita Vedanta in Hindu philosophy, propose that ultimate reality is nondual, and that the true nature of existence is a singular, formless consciousness or awareness. From this perspective, the world of separate objects and entities that we perceive is considered an illusion, known as maya, and the ultimate reality is seen as an undifferentiated, indivisible whole. In other spiritual traditions and philosophies, including some Buddhist and mystical teachings, nonduality is also recognized, but the emphasis may be placed on the interplay between dual and non-dual aspects of reality. These perspectives acknowledge the presence of both relative and absolute truths, where the world of duality is seen as a valid level of experience, while also pointing to a deeper, non-dual reality.It's important to note that the concept of nonduality can be highly abstract and challenging to grasp intellectually. It often transcends the limitations of language and logical reasoning. It is often considered a subject of direct experiential realization rather than something that can be fully understood through conceptual understanding alone. Ultimately, whether nonduality is considered the basis of reality or not is a matter of personal belief, philosophical inclination, and spiritual perspective. Different philosophical, religious, and spiritual traditions offer various interpretations and understandings of the nature of reality, and individuals may resonate with different perspectives based on their own experiences and inquiries.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And so I don't trust realizations. I trust verify. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jul 11, 2023 23:01:14 GMT -5
Oh yes, there are many kinds of ah-ha realizations that can arise...from the mundane to the Ultimate and everything in between. I asked Chatbot to explain the sock puppet thing. I thought it did a great job explaining it. The Ultimate Ah-ha! ChatGPT: When we observe the puppet, we see it as a physical entity with various attributes and characteristics. It can be made of fabric, have strings or wires, and be manipulated by a puppeteer. However, in the non-dual perspective, there is an understanding that beyond the physical attributes of the puppet, there is an animating force, consciousness, that allows it to come alive. Consciousness, in this sense, is not confined to the boundaries of the puppet's physical body or form. It extends beyond it and permeates the entire puppet, from its limbs to its thoughts and emotions. It is the driving force that enables the puppet to express itself, interact with the environment, and experience the world around it. Moreover, this view suggests that consciousness is not limited to the puppet alone but is present in all forms of existence. Just as the puppet is animated by consciousness, everything in the world is seen as imbued with this animating force. From the tiniest organisms to the grandest galaxies, consciousness is considered the underlying essence that allows them to manifest and engage with the world. -------------- I put this to ChatGPT. Can you say if nonduality is the basis of reality? ChatGPT Nonduality is a philosophical and spiritual concept that suggests the fundamental unity or non-separation of all things. It proposes that the apparent divisions and distinctions we perceive in the world are ultimately illusory, and that there is an underlying oneness or interconnectedness that transcends individual objects or entities. In the context of reality, the concept of nonduality can be interpreted in different ways, depending on one's philosophical or spiritual perspective. Some schools of thought, such as Advaita Vedanta in Hindu philosophy, propose that ultimate reality is nondual, and that the true nature of existence is a singular, formless consciousness or awareness. From this perspective, the world of separate objects and entities that we perceive is considered an illusion, known as maya, and the ultimate reality is seen as an undifferentiated, indivisible whole. In other spiritual traditions and philosophies, including some Buddhist and mystical teachings, nonduality is also recognized, but the emphasis may be placed on the interplay between dual and non-dual aspects of reality. These perspectives acknowledge the presence of both relative and absolute truths, where the world of duality is seen as a valid level of experience, while also pointing to a deeper, non-dual reality.It's important to note that the concept of nonduality can be highly abstract and challenging to grasp intellectually. It often transcends the limitations of language and logical reasoning. It is often considered a subject of direct experiential realization rather than something that can be fully understood through conceptual understanding alone. Ultimately, whether nonduality is considered the basis of reality or not is a matter of personal belief, philosophical inclination, and spiritual perspective. Different philosophical, religious, and spiritual traditions offer various interpretations and understandings of the nature of reality, and individuals may resonate with different perspectives based on their own experiences and inquiries.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And so I don't trust realizations. I trust verify. When did you realize that? |
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Post by lolly on Jul 13, 2023 11:00:09 GMT -5
am I the only one who's never read a GPT post because I don't care what it says, or are there others who skip them as well? Please don't tell me I'm in my own private Idaho on this.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 13, 2023 12:00:29 GMT -5
am I the only one who's never read a GPT post because I don't care what it says, or are there others who skip them as well? Please don't tell me I'm in my own private Idaho on this. Do I read Wikipedia? Sure. ChatGPT is not a person, it just a source. If you notice, the answer corresponds to the question, not anything real, it can't make judgements about truth and realness. ChatGPT is not some kind of wise sage, or any kind of a person, period. And its knowledge is wide and general, and it's just knowledge. I asked it something once, and it replied something like, my info only goes back to September 2021. ChatGPT is just kindergarten, it's public access for blanks sake, they're not giving away any secrets. What's its real purpose? It's collecting data on ME. That's the scary part. (That's Google's [side?] purpose, I can't say about Bing, but I'd assume the same). Basically, it's Big Brother on steroids, but is anybody in control? In maybe 6-8-10-12 years, it'll be graduate level AI, and you and I won't be able to access it. |
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Post by andrew on Jul 13, 2023 13:30:18 GMT -5
am I the only one who's never read a GPT post because I don't care what it says, or are there others who skip them as well? Please don't tell me I'm in my own private Idaho on this. I have skim read a couple, but generally skip them, and have explained why. I no longer experience an internal reaction to seeing them on the forum, so I guess I've accepted them as part and parcel of what we are doing together here. |
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Post by lolly on Jul 13, 2023 20:22:50 GMT -5
am I the only one who's never read a GPT post because I don't care what it says, or are there others who skip them as well? Please don't tell me I'm in my own private Idaho on this. I have skim read a couple, but generally skip them, and have explained why. I no longer experience an internal reaction to seeing them on the forum, so I guess I've accepted them as part and parcel of what we are doing together here. This is discussion forum, not a depository for the latest fangled version of Wiki. Not that I read more than a fraction of threads anyway, but I have no interest at all in GPT pastes. I'd be surprised if anyone does, and I bet 0 individuals care what GPT says on a forum, but maybe everyone else is into it and I'm in my private Idaho.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2023 5:34:54 GMT -5
am I the only one who's never read a GPT post because I don't care what it says, or are there others who skip them as well? Please don't tell me I'm in my own private Idaho on this. No you're not. I automatically skip them every time. |
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Post by ouroboros on Jul 14, 2023 5:55:11 GMT -5
Luddites!  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 16, 2023 14:17:12 GMT -5
"The practice of sitting meditation, said Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, is the only way. Only the practice of sitting meditation, as taught by the Buddha himself, could lay the groundwork for an authentic understanding of the Buddha's teaching. If people could sit, and keep sitting, without looking for results, a gap could be created in ego's defenses, and unconditional awareness could begin to shine through. But ego furiously opposes unconditional awareness. And its key strategy against meditation's assault is spiritual materialism. If meditation can be tied to ambition, the heart of its power of liberation is gone.
From the beginning Trungpa Rinpoche fought a pitched battle against spiritual materialism. ...The teachings given here on basic meditation--shamatha and vipashyana, mindfulness and awareness--provide the foundation that every practitioner needs to awaken as the Buddha did". from the introduction by Sherab Chodzin, 1994 Text from two seminars given in 1974.
"The topic we will be dealing with in this seminar is mindfulness and awareness, which is the basic heart of the Buddhist approach. ...The practice of meditation is the way, the only way. Without that, there is no way in and no way out. The practice of meditation is the way of unmasking ourselves, our deceptions of all kinds, and also the practice of meditation is a way of bringing out the subtleties of intelligence within us. ...
Meditation is the way of realizing the fundamental truth, the basic truth, that we can discover ourselves, we can work on ourselves. The goal is the path and the path is the goal. There is no other way of attaining basic sanity than the practice of meditation. Absolutely none. ...
Let us discuss the term meditation at this point. When we talk about the practice of meditation, was are talking about a way of being. Unfortunately, the term meditation is not quite an adequate translation of the Sanskrit term dyhana or samadhi. ...According to Buddha's philosophy there is no verb "to meditate". There is just a noun, "meditation". There is no verb meditating. You don't meditate, but you be in a state of meditation. ...Meditating is not a part of the Buddhist vocabulary, but meditation is".
Meditation is a noun that denotes that you are being in a state of meditation, already. pages 4-6
from The Path is the Goal, A Basic Handbook of Buddhist Meditation, Chogyam Trungpa 1995
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Post by zazeniac on Jul 19, 2023 10:40:33 GMT -5
"The practice of sitting meditation, said Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, is the only way. Only the practice of sitting meditation, as taught by the Buddha himself, could lay the groundwork for an authentic understanding of the Buddha's teaching. If people could sit, and keep sitting, without looking for results, a gap could be created in ego's defenses, and unconditional awareness could begin to shine through. But ego furiously opposes unconditional awareness. And its key strategy against meditation's assault is spiritual materialism. If meditation can be tied to ambition, the heart of its power of liberation is gone. From the beginning Trungpa Rinpoche fought a pitched battle against spiritual materialism. ...The teachings given here on basic meditation--shamatha and vipashyana, mindfulness and awareness--provide the foundation that every practitioner needs to awaken as the Buddha did". from the introduction by Sherab Chodzin, 1994 Text from two seminars given in 1974. "The topic we will be dealing with in this seminar is mindfulness and awareness, which is the basic heart of the Buddhist approach. ...The practice of meditation is the way, the only way. Without that, there is no way in and no way out. The practice of meditation is the way of unmasking ourselves, our deceptions of all kinds, and also the practice of meditation is a way of bringing out the subtleties of intelligence within us. ... Meditation is the way of realizing the fundamental truth, the basic truth, that we can discover ourselves, we can work on ourselves. The goal is the path and the path is the goal. There is no other way of attaining basic sanity than the practice of meditation. Absolutely none. ... Let us discuss the term meditation at this point. When we talk about the practice of meditation, was are talking about a way of being. Unfortunately, the term meditation is not quite an adequate translation of the Sanskrit term dyhana or samadhi. ...According to Buddha's philosophy there is no verb "to meditate". There is just a noun, "meditation". There is no verb meditat ing. You don't meditate, but you be in a state of meditation. ...Meditating is not a part of the Buddhist vocabulary, but meditation is". Meditation is a noun that denotes that you are being in a state of meditation, already. pages 4-6 from The Path is the Goal, A Basic Handbook of Buddhist Meditation, Chogyam Trungpa 1995 The last two paragraphs seem to contradict the first one. Perhaps I missed something. RM used to say that formal meditation, a sitting regimen, was for novices whereas SI was for more advanced seekers. In my view, any practice that draws attention away from mental objects is meditation including ATA, kin hin, zazen, insight, mindfulness, self remembering, SI, focus on I AM, dzogchen, knitting, mantra, even prayer, etc. To be politically correct, I'll say they don't cause, but portend awakening. The purists be dawned. 😁 Peace. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 19, 2023 12:57:27 GMT -5
"The practice of sitting meditation, said Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, is the only way. Only the practice of sitting meditation, as taught by the Buddha himself, could lay the groundwork for an authentic understanding of the Buddha's teaching. If people could sit, and keep sitting, without looking for results, a gap could be created in ego's defenses, and unconditional awareness could begin to shine through. But ego furiously opposes unconditional awareness. And its key strategy against meditation's assault is spiritual materialism. If meditation can be tied to ambition, the heart of its power of liberation is gone. From the beginning Trungpa Rinpoche fought a pitched battle against spiritual materialism. ...The teachings given here on basic meditation--shamatha and vipashyana, mindfulness and awareness--provide the foundation that every practitioner needs to awaken as the Buddha did". from the introduction by Sherab Chodzin, 1994 Text from two seminars given in 1974. "The topic we will be dealing with in this seminar is mindfulness and awareness, which is the basic heart of the Buddhist approach. ...The practice of meditation is the way, the only way. Without that, there is no way in and no way out. The practice of meditation is the way of unmasking ourselves, our deceptions of all kinds, and also the practice of meditation is a way of bringing out the subtleties of intelligence within us. ... Meditation is the way of realizing the fundamental truth, the basic truth, that we can discover ourselves, we can work on ourselves. The goal is the path and the path is the goal. There is no other way of attaining basic sanity than the practice of meditation. Absolutely none. ... Let us discuss the term meditation at this point. When we talk about the practice of meditation, was are talking about a way of being. Unfortunately, the term meditation is not quite an adequate translation of the Sanskrit term dyhana or samadhi. ...According to Buddha's philosophy there is no verb "to meditate". There is just a noun, "meditation". There is no verb meditat ing. You don't meditate, but you be in a state of meditation. ...Meditating is not a part of the Buddhist vocabulary, but meditation is". Meditation is a noun that denotes that you are being in a state of meditation, already. pages 4-6 from The Path is the Goal, A Basic Handbook of Buddhist Meditation, Chogyam Trungpa 1995 The last two paragraphs seem to contradict the first one. Perhaps I missed something. RM used to say that formal meditation, a sitting regimen, was for novices whereas SI was for more advanced seekers. In my view, any practice that draws attention away from mental objects is meditation including ATA, kin hin, zazen, insight, mindfulness, self remembering, SI, focus on I AM, dzogchen, knitting, mantra, even prayer, etc. To be politically correct, I'll say they don't cause, but portend awakening. The purists be dawned. 😁 Peace. Agreed. I assume that SI stands for self inquiry; is that correct? Yes, all of these activities seem to be highly correlated with the occurrence of spiritual experiences/events and realizations. Sitting meditation usually allows one to go deeper and enter NS whereas ATA-T and most other meditative activities pursued while awake and doing ordinary daily activities do not. Ramakrishna is the only character I've heard about who apparently could fall into NS while walking around. He would suddenly freeze like a statue and remain motionless for a period of time before snapping out of it. During a decade of Zen activities and retreats I can't remember anyone ever mentioning samadhi, much less NS. It was almost exclusively discussed in books. Out of curiosity do Soto teachers talk about shikan taza as a particular meditative activity? My understanding is that shikan taza is the primary form of meditation for Soto practitioners. I doubt that a beginner could even do it because it requires an extremely settled mind. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 19, 2023 14:01:40 GMT -5
The last two paragraphs seem to contradict the first one. Perhaps I missed something. RM used to say that formal meditation, a sitting regimen, was for novices whereas SI was for more advanced seekers. In my view, any practice that draws attention away from mental objects is meditation including ATA, kin hin, zazen, insight, mindfulness, self remembering, SI, focus on I AM, dzogchen, knitting, mantra, even prayer, etc. To be politically correct, I'll say they don't cause, but portend awakening. The purists be dawned. 😁 Peace. Agreed. I assume that SI stands for self inquiry; is that correct? Yes, all of these activities seem to be highly correlated with the occurrence of spiritual experiences/events and realizations. Sitting meditation usually allows one to go deeper and enter NS whereas ATA-T and most other meditative activities pursued while awake and doing ordinary daily activities do not. Ramakrishna is the only character I've heard about who apparently could fall into NS while walking around. He would suddenly freeze like a statue and remain motionless for a period of time before snapping out of it. During a decade of Zen activities and retreats I can't remember anyone ever mentioning samadhi, much less NS. It was almost exclusively discussed in books. Out of curiosity do Soto teachers talk about shikan taza as a particular meditative activity? My understanding is that shikan taza is the primary form of meditation for Soto practitioners. I doubt that a beginner could even do it because it requires an extremely settled mind. I read this account about Socrates somewhere between 1970 & 1973, it stuck in my mind as significant. There is a second mention in the Theaetetus. From: donaldrobertson.name/2017/01/03/socrates-the-soldier/ Socrates’ Military Endurance Plato’s account of Socrates focuses on his reputation for exceptional endurance (karteria) in the army, as well as his bravery and self-discipline. In Plato’s Symposium, Socrates freezes in deep meditation en route to a drinking party (the ‘symposium’ of the title). The host, Agathon, and the other guests, are left waiting; a slave is sent and returns reporting: “Socrates is here, but he’s gone off to the neighbour’s porch. He’s standing there and won’t come in even though I called him several times.” Agathon gives the order, “Go back and bring him in!” but Socrates’ companion, Aristodemus, objects: “No, no, leave him alone. It’s one of his habits: every now and then he just goes off like that and stands frozen, wherever he happens to be.”Socrates eventually arrives when the meal is halfway finished, at which Agathon chides him: “Socrates, come lie down next to me. Who knows, if I touch you, I may catch a bit of the enlightenment (sophia) that came to you under my neighbour’s porch. It’s clear you’ve seen the light. If you hadn’t you’d still be standing there!” Edit: I just noticed, "standing frozen" could have two meanings, one maybe unintentional. |
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