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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 10:40:53 GMT -5
There have been some misunderstandings on the forum related to this, so I wanted to mention a few ideas and a bit of forum history.
Common society views "offenses" to the ego as something to avoid. The normal reaction if one's ego is pricked is to bury the feeling with external stimulation (food, entertainment, drugs), or counter-attack the percieved "enemy", or go vent to friends, "how dare he", etc. However, in a spiritual context where one is introspecting and meditating and somewhat aware that you may not be who you think (and feel) you are, a mild wound or embarrassment feeling can be extremely valuable. Because in that moment you are aware of feeling-roots of small-s self, the ego – a door can open, you might see/realize that self-pattern as a mind-object, and you can become more aware. In my own experience this happened to me once - a mild sense of embarrassment, when I meditated, triggered a very interesting and profound experience.
This forum history goes way back to a group called TAT and a teacher named Richard Rose, who taught a technique that he called "confrontation". Group members voluntarily submitted to some mutual questioning, challenging, and poking at egos.
Of course, as a spiritual practice, it can go astray, and devolve into egos getting too mad, trying to "get" each other or "win". It works better when the people involved are operating from a place of friendship, compassion, and a shared goal of Awareness. It requires willing participants. (The recent discussion about Figgles relates to this.)
Life itself will bring such challenges. So in a way, Rose was teaching a method of meeting the challenges half-way, taking a shortcut, which might feel unpleasant for a moment, but could actually be gentler than the alternative.
The web-forum format makes the practice near impossible, because of several factors. The ego slights and embarrassments are amplified because they occur in public with an audience, and because everything is recorded. Second, the communication is not face-to-face. When you can see faces and hear tone of voice, one can sense the friendliness and ease behind the questions or challenges. (ideally)
For those that have absolutely no interest in this, that's fine. But I mention it because people with this background may sometimes stumble upon the forum.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 5, 2023 12:39:28 GMT -5
There have been some misunderstandings on the forum related to this, so I wanted to mention a few ideas and a bit of forum history. Common society views "offenses" to the ego as something to avoid. The normal reaction if one's ego is pricked is to bury the feeling with external stimulation (food, entertainment, drugs), or counter-attack the percieved "enemy", or go vent to friends, "how dare he", etc. However, in a spiritual context where one is introspecting and meditating and somewhat aware that you may not be who you think (and feel) you are, a mild wound or embarrassment feeling can be extremely valuable. Because in that moment you are aware of feeling-roots of small-s self, the ego – a door can open, you might see/realize that self-pattern as a mind-object, and you can become more aware. In my own experience this happened to me once - a mild sense of embarrassment, when I meditated, triggered a very interesting and profound experience. This forum history goes way back to a group called TAT and a teacher named Richard Rose, who taught a technique that he called "confrontation". Group members voluntarily submitted to some mutual questioning, challenging, and poking at egos. Of course, as a spiritual practice, it can go astray, and devolve into egos getting too mad, trying to "get" each other or "win". It works better when the people involved are operating from a place of friendship, compassion, and a shared goal of Awareness. It requires willing participants. (The recent discussion about Figgles relates to this.) Life itself will bring such challenges. So in a way, Rose was teaching a method of meeting the challenges half-way, taking a shortcut, which might feel unpleasant for a moment, but could actually be gentler than the alternative. The web-forum format makes the practice near impossible, because of several factors. The ego slights and embarrassments are amplified because they occur in public with an audience, and because everything is recorded. Second, the communication is not face-to-face. When you can see faces and hear tone of voice, one can sense the friendliness and ease behind the questions or challenges. (ideally) For those that have absolutely no interest in this, that's fine. But I mention it because people with this background may sometimes stumble upon the forum. That's a good point. People at TAT retreats have often mentioned how the confrontation sessions triggered various realizations. The same thing can happen as a result of a Zen interview, but those are one-on-one and not in public. Nevertheless, they can be quite powerful even when the audience is only the teacher. I once had a big realization at a Zen retreat and thought that I had become enlightened (haha!) I confronted the teacher in a Zen interview in an attempt to exhibit my newly-enlightened state, and got hit with the Zen stock and kicked out of the interview room. It was a severe and rather traumatic assault on the ego, which had momentarily adopted a superior spiritual identity, and the somatic effect was amazing. After two days of feeling "locked up" emotionally and physically, another big realization occurred that made me appreciate how perfectly the Zen teacher had responded. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 5, 2023 21:32:40 GMT -5
This forum history goes way back to a group called TAT and a teacher named Richard Rose, who taught a technique that he called "confrontation". Group members voluntarily submitted to some mutual questioning, challenging, and poking at egos. The original purpose of this forum was to connect spiritually like-minded people, not to challenge or question each others egos. That's a later development. This forum wasn't even meant to be a discussion forum. It just evolved into a discussion forum at some point on a rather broad range of spiritual topics. Which is also the reason why this forum is not a non-duality forum by design, but mostly by accident, and by no means is it meant to be limited to just that one flavor of spirituality. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 21:51:54 GMT -5
This forum history goes way back to a group called TAT and a teacher named Richard Rose, who taught a technique that he called "confrontation". Group members voluntarily submitted to some mutual questioning, challenging, and poking at egos. The original purpose of this forum was to connect spiritually like-minded people, not to challenge or question each others egos. That's a later development. This forum wasn't even meant to be a discussion forum. It just evolved into a discussion forum at some point on a rather broad range of spiritual topics. Which is also the reason why this forum is not a non-duality forum by design, but mostly by accident, and by no means is it meant to be limited to just that one flavor of spirituality. Agreed. Maybe I should clarify my comment there – I didn't mean to say that confrontation was the purpose of this forum. I mean that the forum had a connection to another group, and in that group (in-person), it was a common practice. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 5, 2023 22:29:25 GMT -5
The original purpose of this forum was to connect spiritually like-minded people, not to challenge or question each others egos. That's a later development. This forum wasn't even meant to be a discussion forum. It just evolved into a discussion forum at some point on a rather broad range of spiritual topics. Which is also the reason why this forum is not a non-duality forum by design, but mostly by accident, and by no means is it meant to be limited to just that one flavor of spirituality. Agreed. Maybe I should clarify my comment there – I didn't mean to say that confrontation was the purpose of this forum. I mean that the forum had a connection to another group, and in that group (in-person), it was a common practice. Yes, in that sense, you are correct. And in the past, some members here adopted that approach. But we've also seen the negative side effects of that approach and so these days, we rarely do it. And based on my experience, it rarely works for exactly the reasons that you've mentioned. But there have been some notable breakthroughs nevertheless. But they came at a high cost. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 7, 2023 14:45:46 GMT -5
This forum history goes way back to a group called TAT and a teacher named Richard Rose, who taught a technique that he called "confrontation". Group members voluntarily submitted to some mutual questioning, challenging, and poking at egos. The original purpose of this forum was to connect spiritually like-minded people, not to challenge or question each others egos. That's a later development. This forum wasn't even meant to be a discussion forum. It just evolved into a discussion forum at some point on a rather broad range of spiritual topics. Which is also the reason why this forum is not a non-duality forum by design, but mostly by accident, and by no means is it meant to be limited to just that one flavor of spirituality. Yea, I was one of the people who tried to dialogue when this was just a spiritual friends locator. Shawn kept telling us this wasn't for dialogue, stop trying to dialogue (he checked in pretty regularly). Somebody found Beliefnet, told us all, so we went to dialogue there (it's been gone a few years now). I would pop back in from time to time, finally found the forum here. We had a lively dialogue on Beliefnet, all types, even atheists. There was one smart guy who really like Daniel Dennett, Faustus5. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2023 15:58:12 GMT -5
Yea, I was one of the people who tried to dialogue when this was just a spiritual friends locator. Shawn kept telling us this wasn't for dialogue, stop trying to dialogue (he checked in pretty regularly). Somebody found Beliefnet, told us all, so we went to dialogue there (it's been gone a few years now). I would pop back in from time to time, finally found the forum here. We had a lively dialogue on Beliefnet, all types, even atheists. There was one smart guy who really like Daniel Dennett, Faustus5. I forget, did you ever go to a TAT meeting, or meet people associated with Rose's group? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 7, 2023 21:17:11 GMT -5
Yea, I was one of the people who tried to dialogue when this was just a spiritual friends locator. Shawn kept telling us this wasn't for dialogue, stop trying to dialogue (he checked in pretty regularly). Somebody found Beliefnet, told us all, so we went to dialogue there (it's been gone a few years now). I would pop back in from time to time, finally found the forum here. We had a lively dialogue on Beliefnet, all types, even atheists. There was one smart guy who really like Daniel Dennett, Faustus5. I forget, did you ever go to a TAT meeting, or meet people associated with Rose's group? Yes. I went to a weekend meeting in Wheeling, W VA at the old farmhouse about 23 years ago thereabouts. There were about 25-30 people, some for only one day. I got there a little late Friday, maybe 9:00, they were having discussion at the table, a few. Met Shawn, Bob Cergol from I think it was Raleigh, Bob Fergurson, I think from Colorado, one more, I forget, I think he wrote a book also (looked it up, Art Ticknor), Cece Rose, their daughter, still pretty young. All very nice people, some local people too. Somehow I had connected to a TAT guy living in France, we emailed for a few months, he later moved back the US (caught that name too, I think it was David Weimer). I would butcher his name trying to remember, but it started with a W. Now, their headquarters is about 2 hours away from me. Some day I'll get back to a quarterly meeting. I remember Shawn looked like a kid, maybe in his 20's, but didn't know. I remember nearby, there were several house foundations, weeds growing up through. I figured plans got changed when Rose got alzheimers. So yes, I met students of Rose. (Why do you ask? I'm curious). |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2023 22:43:28 GMT -5
I forget, did you ever go to a TAT meeting, or meet people associated with Rose's group? Yes. I went to a weekend meeting in Wheeling, W VA at the old farmhouse about 23 years ago thereabouts. There were about 25-30 people, some for only one day. I got there a little late Friday, maybe 9:00, they were having discussion at the table, a few. Met Shawn, Bob Cergol from I think it was Raleigh, Bob Fergurson, I think from Colorado, one more, I forget, I think he wrote a book also (looked it up, Art Ticknor), Cece Rose, their daughter, still pretty young. All very nice people, some local people too. Somehow I had connected to a TAT guy living in France, we emailed for a few months, he later moved back the US (caught that name too, I think it was David Weimer). I would butcher his name trying to remember, but it started with a W. Now, their headquarters is about 2 hours away from me. Some day I'll get back to a quarterly meeting. I remember Shawn looked like a kid, maybe in his 20's, but didn't know. I remember nearby, there were several house foundations, weeds growing up through. I figured plans got changed when Rose got alzheimers. So yes, I met students of Rose. (Why do you ask? I'm curious). Cool. I was wondering if we crossed paths at one point. I've met those same people, but it was a bit later, so probably not. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 8, 2023 6:19:26 GMT -5
Yes. I went to a weekend meeting in Wheeling, W VA at the old farmhouse about 23 years ago thereabouts. There were about 25-30 people, some for only one day. I got there a little late Friday, maybe 9:00, they were having discussion at the table, a few. Met Shawn, Bob Cergol from I think it was Raleigh, Bob Fergurson, I think from Colorado, one more, I forget, I think he wrote a book also (looked it up, Art Ticknor), Cece Rose, their daughter, still pretty young. All very nice people, some local people too. Somehow I had connected to a TAT guy living in France, we emailed for a few months, he later moved back the US (caught that name too, I think it was David Weimer). I would butcher his name trying to remember, but it started with a W. Now, their headquarters is about 2 hours away from me. Some day I'll get back to a quarterly meeting. I remember Shawn looked like a kid, maybe in his 20's, but didn't know. I remember nearby, there were several house foundations, weeds growing up through. I figured plans got changed when Rose got alzheimers. So yes, I met students of Rose. (Why do you ask? I'm curious). Cool. I was wondering if we crossed paths at one point. I've met those same people, but it was a bit later, so probably not. Cool. I didn't stay in touch with any of them. |
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