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Post by laughter on Feb 8, 2023 8:41:12 GMT -5
(** muttley snicker **)
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Post by laughter on Feb 8, 2023 9:25:26 GMT -5
not yes not no a lack of footprints in the snow not maybe either .. boil that rabbit! of the three? neither one no answer lies beneath the Sun do not ponder, do not think of silence take the longest drink just let go of knowing now no what, no why, no way, no how
in a moment, when it's still confusion ends upon that hill |
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Post by laughter on Feb 12, 2023 8:05:03 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Feb 12, 2023 15:23:24 GMT -5
#2 (continued) lies we told that we believed with truth we did thus to deceive gleefully, and with no shame the megathreads, they were the game foxes all, jumping play sometimes at night sometimes all day clever was the turn of phrase excited so emotions blaze clarified in a strange way always something more to say no quiet mind on hilly trail wending turns so not to fail at forming questions ever thus no wrong answers in that trust quiet now the mountain lays echoing of those days the conversation seemed to end but life and love are with my friends a messenger comes to your door with words you've never heard before you doubt his looks you find him false but what if that is just your loss? a liar you believe is true leads you to a pleasant view a chimera that you buy without hope, I breath a sigh  |
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Post by laughter on Feb 23, 2023 5:00:54 GMT -5
Based on my understanding, LOA will somehow have to become part of a conclusive explanation, translation of case #2 uses the term "law of cause and effect", and the commentators in the vids relate that to "karma". What are your thoughts, in context, as to this in relation to your understanding of LOA? |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 25, 2023 1:39:55 GMT -5
Based on my understanding, LOA will somehow have to become part of a conclusive explanation, translation of case #2 uses the term "law of cause and effect", and the commentators in the vids relate that to "karma". What are your thoughts, in context, as to this in relation to your understanding of LOA? Depends on what is meant by 'karma' or 'the law of karma'. In its most basic form, it really is just LOA. But there are theories built on top of that (like reincarnation) that have nothing to do with that. Traditionally, in Chinese folklore, the way I remember it, the fox is a mischievous shapeshifter. So the fox koan is a really good koan on many levels. And I think Ramana gave the best answer when asked about his afterlife: Where could I possibly go? BOOM! |
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Post by laughter on Feb 25, 2023 21:24:10 GMT -5
The Zen Flesh, Zen Bones translation of case #2 uses the term "law of cause and effect", and the commentators in the vids relate that to "karma". What are your thoughts, in context, as to this in relation to your understanding of LOA? Depends on what is meant by 'karma' or 'the law of karma'. In its most basic form, it really is just LOA. But there are theories built on top of that (like reincarnation) that have nothing to do with that. Traditionally, in Chinese folklore, the way I remember it, the fox is a mischievous shapeshifter. So the fox koan is a really good koan on many levels. And I think Ramana gave the best answer when asked about his afterlife: Where could I possibly go? BOOM! The way I think of the reincarnation aspect of the case is that it's essentially a distraction. At the same time, I'm cognizant this line of thinking is a product of my conditioning: raised by lapsed Catholics in a predominantly Christian and post-Christian, secular humanist culture. That said, the way I view that aspect of the case is in terms of dialog and culture. The hook is deliberately set there for this, in that the "reincarnated Fox" is essentially a past version of the Master. One of the vids makes the point that in the translations the questioner and the Master giving the answer essentially have the same name/title: "The Zen Master on <name> Mountain". So, the answer given by the Master represents a cultural evolution of a sort, and, of course the "Red Beard" at the end of the case pulls the rug out from anyone who would want to wrap it up in that conceptualized bow. Again, that said, this is why the reincarnation aspect of it to me is just a statement about repeating patterns of individual understanding. Dialog with the 'pilgrim, and to some extent ourboros on the topic can be interesting and illuminating. Bottom line: the case seems to me quite transcendent of what anyone's beliefs in reincarnation might be. Thanks for your answer about LOA, it's along the lines of what I expected, but, well, expectation and koans .. heh heh, you know ... As I telegraphed with the poem, what I kept seeing in the Megathreads over time were various re-statements of certain cases, and then circular dialog around them. Case #2 will never stop coming up in various guises. Ever.  |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 26, 2023 2:19:36 GMT -5
Depends on what is meant by 'karma' or 'the law of karma'. In its most basic form, it really is just LOA. But there are theories built on top of that (like reincarnation) that have nothing to do with that. Traditionally, in Chinese folklore, the way I remember it, the fox is a mischievous shapeshifter. So the fox koan is a really good koan on many levels. And I think Ramana gave the best answer when asked about his afterlife: Where could I possibly go? BOOM! The way I think of the reincarnation aspect of the case is that it's essentially a distraction. At the same time, I'm cognizant this line of thinking is a product of my conditioning: raised by lapsed Catholics in a predominantly Christian and post-Christian, secular humanist culture. That said, the way I view that aspect of the case is in terms of dialog and culture. The hook is deliberately set there for this, in that the "reincarnated Fox" is essentially a past version of the Master. One of the vids makes the point that in the translations the questioner and the Master giving the answer essentially have the same name/title: "The Zen Master on <name> Mountain". So, the answer given by the Master represents a cultural evolution of a sort, and, of course the "Red Beard" at the end of the case pulls the rug out from anyone who would want to wrap it up in that conceptualized bow. Again, that said, this is why the reincarnation aspect of it to me is just a statement about repeating patterns of individual understanding. Dialog with the 'pilgrim, and to some extent ourboros on the topic can be interesting and illuminating. Bottom line: the case seems to me quite transcendent of what anyone's beliefs in reincarnation might be. Thanks for your answer about LOA, it's along the lines of what I expected, but, well, expectation and koans .. heh heh, you know ... As I telegraphed with the poem, what I kept seeing in the Megathreads over time were various re-statements of certain cases, and then circular dialog around them. Case #2 will never stop coming up in various guises. Ever. The question is asked in an either/or fashion. And there is no definite answer in that format. Because both answers given are correct, depending on context. Where it gets wrong is when you decide for a definite answer or when you want to wrap it up in a neat conceptual box, as you've pointed out. So as usual, the problem cannot fully be resolved intellectually. Actually, you could see it along those lines that came from Ramana, that both the sage and ignorant say "I am the body"... Zen masters are often named after the place where they used to live (usually some mountain in the middle of nowhere). So that's not unusual and almost the norm, like Weishan, Hanshan etc. - all hillbillies! It's one of those instances where Chan is much closer to the Taoist tradition than the Buddhist tradition. Another point you may find interesting is that on the reincarnation issue, Buddhism is much more new-agey than Seth or Abraham. They both say that there is no reward or punishment for anything you do in this life that is carried over to a future life. As Seth always said, the point of power is in the present, and so similarly, the reasons for the maladies or joys you encounter in this life are also to be found in this life. I'll take a look at the original text when I have the time. Usually there are some subtleties hidden in the text and characters that translators tend to overlook. Interestingly, the koan is called 野狐禅 ('Wild Fox Zen') in the original. There's an interesting wikipedia article on this koan, especially Dogen's interpretation is an interesting read (flip-flopper!) Good poem, btw.  |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 26, 2023 3:44:53 GMT -5
It would be interesting to look into an original version. From what I read on wiki, it may refer to the common misinterpretation of the cause-effect relation. For example: - I experience happy events (there is an external physical-reality that I perceive), and this causes me to feel happy. --- false causation
- I feel happy, and this causes me to experience (brings into the physical-reality that I perceive) happy events. --- true causation
This might be the difference between what they call "not falling into" false causation, and "not ignoring" true causation. ======= EDIT: Following a normal distribution, animals (e.g. foxes) are dominated by instincts, develop emotions, have incipient intellect. Following a normal distribution, humans (e.g. monks) mostly mastered instincts, are dominated by emotions, develop intellect, have incipient intuition. Hence 500 fox incarnations, to evolve and realize what is the true causation. |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 26, 2023 12:44:49 GMT -5
It would be interesting to look into an original version. From what I read on wiki, it may refer to the common misinterpretation of the cause-effect relation. For example: - I experience happy events (there is an external physical-reality that I perceive), and this causes me to feel happy. --- false causation
- I feel happy, and this causes me to experience (brings into the physical-reality that I perceive) happy events. --- true causation
This might be the difference between what they call "not falling into" false causation, and "not ignoring" true causation. ======= EDIT: Following a normal distribution, animals (e.g. foxes) are dominated by instincts, develop emotions, have incipient intellect. Following a normal distribution, humans (e.g. monks) mostly mastered instincts, are dominated by emotions, develop intellect, have incipient intuition. Hence 500 fox incarnations, to evolve and realize what is the true causation. I already found the original Chinese text. Let's see. Apparently, the term 'Wild Fox Zen' is an established Zen term that refers to false enlightenment (what we here call mind enlightenment), referring to people who confuse intellectual cleverness and personal opinions with actual clarity and actual truth and so the misinterpret Buddhist doctrine and don't walk the talk. Hence the fox reference. But to understand the context of the koan, we have to look into what the Buddha taught about causation. The point of the koan is to highlight some common misunderstandings about a core Buddhist teaching/dogma. Maybe Lolly can help here. In your example, both versions are actually correct. If you observe pleasing things in your experience, you are more likely to feel happy. If you are already feeling happy, you are more likely to observe pleasing things in your experience. It's one of those chegg things. |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 26, 2023 16:29:21 GMT -5
It would be interesting to look into an original version. From what I read on wiki, it may refer to the common misinterpretation of the cause-effect relation. For example: - I experience happy events (there is an external physical-reality that I perceive), and this causes me to feel happy. --- false causation
- I feel happy, and this causes me to experience (brings into the physical-reality that I perceive) happy events. --- true causation
This might be the difference between what they call "not falling into" false causation, and "not ignoring" true causation. ======= EDIT: Following a normal distribution, animals (e.g. foxes) are dominated by instincts, develop emotions, have incipient intellect. Following a normal distribution, humans (e.g. monks) mostly mastered instincts, are dominated by emotions, develop intellect, have incipient intuition. Hence 500 fox incarnations, to evolve and realize what is the true causation. I already found the original Chinese text. Let's see. Apparently, the term 'Wild Fox Zen' is an established Zen term that refers to false enlightenment (what we here call mind enlightenment), referring to people who confuse intellectual cleverness and personal opinions with actual clarity and actual truth and so the misinterpret Buddhist doctrine and don't walk the talk. Hence the fox reference. But to understand the context of the koan, we have to look into what the Buddha taught about causation. The point of the koan is to highlight some common misunderstandings about a core Buddhist teaching/dogma. Maybe Lolly can help here. In your example, both versions are actually correct. If you observe pleasing things in your experience, you are more likely to feel happy. If you are already feeling happy, you are more likely to observe pleasing things in your experience. It's one of those chegg things. In terms of vibration ... Your vibration is the cause. Your experience is the effect. Intellectually may seem the other way, but the process isn't in a negative feedback (a closed-loop that would maintain a balance), but it is an open-loop. Vibration causes / attracts an experience that, in turn, supports and amplifies that vibration. As I understand, koans are meant to make us put aside our intellect, critical factor, and tap our individual intuition. That is an altered state of consciousness, in which each one can interpret according to his individual level of evolvement. There isn't a "correct" solution to the koan. There are deeper and deeper interpretations. All these stories are colored by the understanding of those who recounted and translated them, and although they may now differ from their original form, the embedded symbolism is still available for our intuitive interpretation. Regarding the cause-effect: our thoughts, feelings, beliefs determine the reality that we experience. Then, in turn, those experiences support those thoughts, feelings, beliefs, but they aren't primary, but secondary. I recall a koan like: what is the sound of one hand clapping? Intellectually there is no answer, but pondering on the "nonsense" puts you in an altered state of consciousness, where your critical factor is bypassed (somnambulism), and you can tap your intuition. Following this approach, the answer that came to my mind was: " whatever you want it to be", with the explanation that "the sound you hear isn't caused by hand slapping, but by your beliefs who create that reality; you create the image, the sound, the event". It would be interesting to look at the exact original Chinese formulation of the "wild fox koan", although ultimately it is irrelevant. The koan is a conduit like the tea leaves reading, the i-ching draw, the stars setup, ... |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 26, 2023 17:40:39 GMT -5
I already found the original Chinese text. Let's see. Apparently, the term 'Wild Fox Zen' is an established Zen term that refers to false enlightenment (what we here call mind enlightenment), referring to people who confuse intellectual cleverness and personal opinions with actual clarity and actual truth and so the misinterpret Buddhist doctrine and don't walk the talk. Hence the fox reference. But to understand the context of the koan, we have to look into what the Buddha taught about causation. The point of the koan is to highlight some common misunderstandings about a core Buddhist teaching/dogma. Maybe Lolly can help here. In your example, both versions are actually correct. If you observe pleasing things in your experience, you are more likely to feel happy. If you are already feeling happy, you are more likely to observe pleasing things in your experience. It's one of those chegg things. In terms of vibration ... Your vibration is the cause. Your experience is the effect. Intellectually may seem the other way, but the process isn't in a negative feedback (a closed-loop that would maintain a balance), but it is an open-loop. Vibration causes / attracts an experience that, in turn, supports and amplifies that vibration. As I understand, koans are meant to make us put aside our intellect, critical factor, and tap our individual intuition. That is an altered state of consciousness, in which each one can interpret according to his individual level of evolvement. There isn't a "correct" solution to the koan. There are deeper and deeper interpretations. All these stories are colored by the understanding of those who recounted and translated them, and although they may now differ from their original form, the embedded symbolism is still available for our intuitive interpretation. Regarding the cause-effect: our thoughts, feelings, beliefs determine the reality that we experience. Then, in turn, those experiences support those thoughts, feelings, beliefs, but they aren't primary, but secondary. I recall a koan like: what is the sound of one hand clapping? Intellectually there is no answer, but pondering on the "nonsense" puts you in an altered state of consciousness, where your critical factor is bypassed (somnambulism), and you can tap your intuition. Following this approach, the answer that came to my mind was: " whatever you want it to be", with the explanation that "the sound you hear isn't caused by hand slapping, but by your beliefs who create that reality; you create the image, the sound, the event". It would be interesting to look at the exact original Chinese formulation of the "wild fox koan", although ultimately it is irrelevant. The koan is a conduit like the tea leaves reading, the i-ching draw, the stars setup, ... FWIW, most koans involve simple and direct answers that can become obvious after sufficient contemplation. It's true that intuition is used to access a deeper level of intelligence than the intellect can access, but when a koan is penetrated, reflective thought is bypassed completely. There is also a consensus among people who use koans as teaching tools concerning the answers, and this is why they are used as test questions in the Zen tradition. An answer must show the teacher in no uncertain terms that one has seen through the conundrum. If the teacher has any doubts, s/he can ask followup koans that will make it clear whether a koan has been penetrated by a student or whether the student has been told the answer by someone else. Although many koans are answered with words, the one-hand clapping koan is not one of them. Something else is required. |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 27, 2023 21:52:05 GMT -5
I found this Chinese page, and used google auto translator to browse it: Chinese linkThis is the original question and answer: 大修行人还 落因果否？.. 不 落因果。 This is the enlightening answer to that same question: 不 昧因果。 It seems that 因果 means not only cause-effect, but also karma, which might change a little the meaning of the story. yellowbridge- 大修行人还落因果否？
大 dà big; huge; large; major; great; wide; deep; older (than); oldest; eldest; greatly; very much; (dialect) father; father's elder or younger brother
修行人 xiūxíng rén person pursuing religious practice (Buddhism)
还 hái still; still in progress; still more; yet; even more; in addition; fairly; passably (good); as early as; even; also; else
落 luò to fall or drop; (of the sun) to set; (of a tide) to go out; to lower; to decline or sink; to lag or fall behind; to fall onto; to rest with; to get or receive; to write down; whereabouts; settlement
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
否 fǒu to negate; to deny; not
- 不落因果。
不 bù (negative prefix); not; no
落 luò to fall or drop; (of the sun) to set; (of a tide) to go out; to lower; to decline or sink; to lag or fall behind; to fall onto; to rest with; to get or receive; to write down; whereabouts; settlement
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
- 不昧因果。
不 bù (negative prefix); not; no
昧 mèi to conceal; dark
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
Paraphrasing (in spite of the risks involved ) ... the question might've been if the advanced Buddhism practitioners still accumulate " lower" karma. The monk's fateful answer was that they don't; the master's answer was that they can't hide from karma. |
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Post by inavalan on Feb 27, 2023 21:57:21 GMT -5
This is the older calligraphy variant used by the author of the Chinese page referenced above: ![]()  |
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Post by Reefs on Feb 28, 2023 4:48:51 GMT -5
I found this Chinese page, and used google auto translator to browse it: Chinese linkThis is the original question and answer: 大修行人还 落因果否？.. 不 落因果。 This is the enlightening answer to that same question: 不 昧因果。 It seems that 因果 means not only cause-effect, but also karma, which might change a little the meaning of the story. yellowbridge- 大修行人还落因果否？
大 dà big; huge; large; major; great; wide; deep; older (than); oldest; eldest; greatly; very much; (dialect) father; father's elder or younger brother
修行人 xiūxíng rén person pursuing religious practice (Buddhism)
还 hái still; still in progress; still more; yet; even more; in addition; fairly; passably (good); as early as; even; also; else
落 luò to fall or drop; (of the sun) to set; (of a tide) to go out; to lower; to decline or sink; to lag or fall behind; to fall onto; to rest with; to get or receive; to write down; whereabouts; settlement
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
否 fǒu to negate; to deny; not
- 不落因果。
不 bù (negative prefix); not; no
落 luò to fall or drop; (of the sun) to set; (of a tide) to go out; to lower; to decline or sink; to lag or fall behind; to fall onto; to rest with; to get or receive; to write down; whereabouts; settlement
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
- 不昧因果。
不 bù (negative prefix); not; no
昧 mèi to conceal; dark
因果 yīnguǒ karma; cause and effect
Paraphrasing (in spite of the risks involved ) ... the question might've been if the advanced Buddhism practitioners still accumulate " lower" karma. The monk's fateful answer was that they don't; the master's answer was that they can't hide from karma. Buddhism is like a science. They have their own specialized concepts and language. And it's often impossible to guess what Sanskrit term certain Chinese characters or words are actually referring to, merely by using a regular dictionary. There are special dictionaries for that. So you better check these terms with a Buddhist dictionary like this one: buddhism-dict.net/ddb/indexes/term-en.html |
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