Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2023 6:26:55 GMT -5
I understand, but my view is we have to do something. We are compelled to act, the moment we are 'fighting God's automatic nature'. Ideally perhaps, we change the belief, but that's easier said than done, sometimes a context won't allow that, and then we are adding more layers of struggle. Perhaps we could agree that the goal is always to reduce conflict. I don't think there is a 'one size fits all solution' to that though. People feel as if they're compelled to act, and the mind - intellect + emotion - will always make it so for any given people-peep. But you see, that's not really WIBIGO.  It just seems like WIBIGO to the people-peep. It doesn't seem that way. There is no escape from taking action when you are forced to. One cannot lie to oneself. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2023 5:57:25 GMT -5
"It's all appearances appearing" is one way to describe the realization of emptiness, but realizing emptiness is only half circle, after all. One Zen aphorism that address this is "chop wood, carry water". One who has realized emptiness will not feel as if they or anyone else is "compelled to act", but the pop-spirituality term "spiritual bypassing" is a comment on where that can lead. Of course, I'm writing in generalities and abstractions, which is what it is. Sure, being compelled to act definitely doesn't have to come with the sense of feeling compelled to act. Taking an extreme example, of holding a finger to a hot stove, it's very unlikely one would 'feel' compelled to move their finger from it, they will just move it! Similarly, when there is physical or emotional discomfort, one will instinctively act on that in some way, shape or form. It's a description from the outside in, (" mind will always make it so"). Not wrong, in the relative sense. But underlying this, is the existential question. You mentioned gopal's interest here, and that's where his interest comes from. It's an interest in the existential question. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2023 10:31:46 GMT -5
I understand, but my view is we have to do something. We are compelled to act, the moment we are 'fighting God's automatic nature'. Ideally perhaps, we change the belief, but that's easier said than done, sometimes a context won't allow that, and then we are adding more layers of struggle. Perhaps we could agree that the goal is always to reduce conflict. I don't think there is a 'one size fits all solution' to that though. When we are faced with a situation that requires action, it is important that we take action, otherwise we will be faced with another problem. Inaction when action is required is another problem in itself. yes, I like the way you said that. Why am I agreeing with you lately? Have you changed, or have I changed, or both? |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 28, 2023 10:40:44 GMT -5
Sure, being compelled to act definitely doesn't have to come with the sense of feeling compelled to act. Taking an extreme example, of holding a finger to a hot stove, it's very unlikely one would 'feel' compelled to move their finger from it, they will just move it! Similarly, when there is physical or emotional discomfort, one will instinctively act on that in some way, shape or form. It's a description from the outside in, (" mind will always make it so"). Not wrong, in the relative sense. But underlying this, is the existential question. You mentioned gopal's interest here, and that's where his interest comes from. It's an interest in the existential question. hmmm maybe. Maybe every query is fundamentally an existential query lol...I'm sort of joking, but not really. I perceive Gopal as being interested in a 'perfected state', which differs from self-realization interest somewhat, though the two subjects aren't disconnected. 'Perfected state' would be 'self-realization + relative consistent alignment' perhaps. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2023 12:05:33 GMT -5
When we are faced with a situation that requires action, it is important that we take action, otherwise we will be faced with another problem. Inaction when action is required is another problem in itself. yes, I like the way you said that. Why am I agreeing with you lately? Have you changed, or have I changed, or both? Because there has never been a point of contention here between you and me. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 30, 2023 8:39:08 GMT -5
It's a description from the outside in, (" mind will always make it so"). Not wrong, in the relative sense. But underlying this, is the existential question. You mentioned gopal's interest here, and that's where his interest comes from. It's an interest in the existential question. hmmm maybe. Maybe every query is fundamentally an existential query lol...I'm sort of joking, but not really.I perceive Gopal as being interested in a 'perfected state', which differs from self-realization interest somewhat, though the two subjects aren't disconnected. 'Perfected state' would be 'self-realization + relative consistent alignment' perhaps. and then, once this is recognized, dynamically, as it happens, what then? Seems to me that in the broader cultural context - like say, your dialogs on twitter - most people aren't really interested in the existential question, at least not directly. But here? Well, it's a different situation, and for me, there are turns in the dialog where the question becomes ... "how to proceed?". Perhaps a decent metric might be (with some exceptions), does continuing the dialog feed the intellectual spin, or not? |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2023 14:39:31 GMT -5
Here's Bashar talking about the 'perfected state' Gopal....(2 minutes)
|
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 30, 2023 14:51:30 GMT -5
hmmm maybe. Maybe every query is fundamentally an existential query lol...I'm sort of joking, but not really.I perceive Gopal as being interested in a 'perfected state', which differs from self-realization interest somewhat, though the two subjects aren't disconnected. 'Perfected state' would be 'self-realization + relative consistent alignment' perhaps. and then, once this is recognized, dynamically, as it happens, what then? Seems to me that in the broader cultural context - like say, your dialogs on twitter - most people aren't really interested in the existential question, at least not directly. But here? Well, it's a different situation, and for me, there are turns in the dialog where the question becomes ... "how to proceed?". Perhaps a decent metric might be (with some exceptions), does continuing the dialog feed the intellectual spin, or not? I gettcha. I tend to look at these kinds of issues in energy terms (and I'm not just talking about non-duality here) To give an analogy, if horses are running very wild, sometimes you have to jump on and ride with them, and burn that energy off. You have to meet them where they are at. But sometimes running wild with them doesn't burn off the energy, it actually fosters the energy and encourages the energy, and if you aren't careful, you'll be running with them for a very long time. So then you have to somehow find a way to bring them home to rest. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Jan 30, 2023 15:54:34 GMT -5
Yes, exactly, and then, once this is recognized, dynamically, as it happens, what then? Seems to me that in the broader cultural context - like say, your dialogs on twitter - most people aren't really interested in the existential question, at least not directly. But here? Well, it's a different situation, and for me, there are turns in the dialog where the question becomes ... "how to proceed?". Perhaps a decent metric might be (with some exceptions), does continuing the dialog feed the intellectual spin, or not? I gettcha. I tend to look at these kinds of issues in energy terms (and I'm not just talking about non-duality here) To give an analogy, if horses are running very wild, sometimes you have to jump on and ride with them, and burn that energy off. You have to meet them where they are at. But sometimes running wild with them doesn't burn off the energy, it actually fosters the energy and encourages the energy, and if you aren't careful, you'll be running with them for a very long time. So then you have to somehow find a way to bring them home to rest.  .. you just re-invented one of the Zen 10 bulls.  |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 31, 2023 6:51:01 GMT -5
I gettcha. I tend to look at these kinds of issues in energy terms (and I'm not just talking about non-duality here) To give an analogy, if horses are running very wild, sometimes you have to jump on and ride with them, and burn that energy off. You have to meet them where they are at. But sometimes running wild with them doesn't burn off the energy, it actually fosters the energy and encourages the energy, and if you aren't careful, you'll be running with them for a very long time. So then you have to somehow find a way to bring them home to rest. .. you just re-invented one of the Zen 10 bulls. lol maybe I missed my spiritual calling. If so, I missed it by a country mile |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Feb 1, 2023 6:37:34 GMT -5
Yes! The source of our perception and thoughts, regardless of what we would like to change, reinforces our beliefs and ideas. If an idea is present, it will also generate its opposite, and if a belief is strongly ingrained, it will continue to shape our beliefs. Find out what's left in the absence of any and all belief and you'll lose interest in all of these philosophical ideas. We should define the premises of this theory, and thereby show how we arrive at that conclusion  |
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Feb 1, 2023 6:40:57 GMT -5
Here's Bashar talking about the 'perfected state' Gopal....(2 minutes) It's only 2 minutes, so I had a look, just because it's good to watch a clownish act, but not for very long. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 1, 2023 12:16:56 GMT -5
Here's Bashar talking about the 'perfected state' Gopal....(2 minutes) It's only 2 minutes, so I had a look, just because it's good to watch a clownish act, but not for very long. each to their own eh! Gopal, what did you think? Pretty similar to what you are talking about, right? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 12:36:06 GMT -5
It's only 2 minutes, so I had a look, just because it's good to watch a clownish act, but not for very long. each to their own eh! Gopal, what did you think? Pretty similar to what you are talking about, right? Sorry andrew, I don't watch videos. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Feb 1, 2023 13:46:27 GMT -5
each to their own eh! Gopal, what did you think? Pretty similar to what you are talking about, right? Sorry andrew, I don't watch videos. I'm not sleeping much at the moment, if I'm up late tonight, I'll do a bit of a transcript. |
|
It just seems like WIBIGO to the people-peep.
.. you just re-invented one of the Zen 10 bulls. 
