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Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2022 8:45:12 GMT -5
Known directly. Big difference.  Knowing doesn't have any sub division. Even the early Greeks knew that there were two kinds of knowing. That's why they had two separate words for "knowing." Intellectual knowing involves a subject and object; direct knowing does not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 9:07:43 GMT -5
Knowing doesn't have any sub division. Even the early Greeks knew that there were two kinds of knowing. That's why they had two separate words for "knowing." Intellectual knowing involves a subject and object; direct knowing does not. If there is truly such a state, then you can only know when you are entering into that state and coming out of that state. You can't know when you are in it. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2022 9:38:37 GMT -5
Even the early Greeks knew that there were two kinds of knowing. That's why they had two separate words for "knowing." Intellectual knowing involves a subject and object; direct knowing does not. If there is truly such a state, then you can only know when you are entering into that state and coming out of that state. You can't know when you are in it. No reference so no understanding. Can one discern the difference between touching a fire and "knowing" it is hot versus being told that a fire is hot and "knowing" that it is hot intellectually? Touch a fire and the body instantly jerks away; no thinking or self reflection is necessary. What we are is intelligent and responds to reality directly. The intellect is one step removed from reality because it only deals in images, ideas, and symbols. During NS awareness is aware of itself directly, and there is no reflection, no thought, no perception, no time, no space, no sense of selfhood--no content. This cannot be understood by the intellect. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 22, 2022 10:22:14 GMT -5
It's not the "real" you going into or coming out of NS. It's the "dream/false" you submerged in the Real. Now the terms I have in quotes are concessions to the intellect, not the truth but useful in this context. There is only Self. Self vs self is a pointer.
The you that comes out of NS only exists conceptually, a product of the I-thought. The Real you is timeless and imperceptible. It cannot be known in the usual way we know objects. Some say it is the Knowing. But it defies description.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 10:56:46 GMT -5
If there is truly such a state, then you can only know when you are entering into that state and coming out of that state. You can't know when you are in it. No reference so no understanding. Can one discern the difference between touching a fire and "knowing" it is hot versus being told that a fire is hot and "knowing" that it is hot intellectually? Touch a fire and the body instantly jerks away; no thinking or self reflection is necessary. What we are is intelligent and responds to reality directly. The intellect is one step removed from reality because it only deals in images, ideas, and symbols. During NS awareness is aware of itself directly, and there is no reflection, no thought, no perception, no time, no space, no sense of selfhood--no content. This cannot be understood by the intellect. Whether awareness aware of itself or whether it is aware of the dog, it doesn't matter, the point is, when it is aware of something, it is having something in its focus. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 11:05:06 GMT -5
Even the early Greeks knew that there were two kinds of knowing. That's why they had two separate words for "knowing." Intellectual knowing involves a subject and object; direct knowing does not. , then you can only know when you are entering into that state and coming out of that state. You can't know when you are in it. , you're not sure such a state exists. That's totally fair, and honest. But from there you have two options. 1. forget it. or 2. enter the state yourself. This third option of trying to prove that no one else can go into the state, using word definitions and logic – it's just pointless. I think for some people it is not easy to enter this state. There is a 'barrier' of some kind, like a fear of death. It can really rig the mind to avoid the state, so it can be tricky. People think, well I meditated a bunch and it didn't happen, so it's not possible. Edit: I'm skeptical of people who say they entered it easily. There are probably levels to the 'experience', with some going deeper than others. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 11:24:43 GMT -5
If there is truly such a state, then you can only know when you are entering into that state and coming out of that state. You can't know when you are in it. , you're not sure such a state exists. That's totally fair, and honest. But from there you have two options. 1. forget it. or 2. enter the state yourself. This third option of trying to prove that no one else can go into the state, using word definitions and logic – it's just pointless. I think for some people it is not easy to enter this state. There is a 'barrier' of some kind, like a fear of death. It can really rig the mind to avoid the state, so it can be tricky. People think, well I meditated a bunch and it didn't happen, so it's not possible. Edit: I'm skeptical of people who say they entered it easily. There are probably levels to the 'experience', with some going deeper than others. You are not analyzing about dinosaurs, you are analysing about yourself. Can't you look at yourself find out how perception happens? Is it not perception is happening in you? Or are you looking at something out there ? Which one is true? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 11:51:57 GMT -5
So, you're not sure such a state exists. That's totally fair, and honest. But from there you have two options. 1. forget it. or 2. enter the state yourself. This third option of trying to prove that no one else can go into the state, using word definitions and logic – it's just pointless. I think for some people it is not easy to enter this state. There is a 'barrier' of some kind, like a fear of death. It can really rig the mind to avoid the state, so it can be tricky. People think, well I meditated a bunch and it didn't happen, so it's not possible. Edit: I'm skeptical of people who say they entered it easily. There are probably levels to the 'experience', with some going deeper than others. You are not analyzing about dinosaurs, you are analysing about yourself. Can't you look at yourself find out how perception happens? Is it not perception is happening in you? Or are you looking at something out there ? Which one is true? I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if I play along, then I'd say #1: perception is happening in me. Before you started started the infinite loop with Zendancer, you took issue with the Ramana quote I posted. Is it your position that Ramana too was wrong or delusional about Self and Awareness? |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2022 12:44:36 GMT -5
No reference so no understanding. Can one discern the difference between touching a fire and "knowing" it is hot versus being told that a fire is hot and "knowing" that it is hot intellectually? Touch a fire and the body instantly jerks away; no thinking or self reflection is necessary. What we are is intelligent and responds to reality directly. The intellect is one step removed from reality because it only deals in images, ideas, and symbols. During NS awareness is aware of itself directly, and there is no reflection, no thought, no perception, no time, no space, no sense of selfhood--no content. This cannot be understood by the intellect. Whether awareness aware of itself or whether it is aware of the dog, it doesn't matter, the point is, when it is aware of something, it is having something in its focus. No reference so no understanding. Being fixated on a definition or idea is like putting oneself into a self-created mental prison. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2022 12:53:16 GMT -5
You are not analyzing about dinosaurs, you are analysing about yourself. Can't you look at yourself find out how perception happens? Is it not perception is happening in you? Or are you looking at something out there ? Which one is true? I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if I play along, then I'd say #1: perception is happening in me. Before you started started the infinite loop with Zendancer, you took issue with the Ramana quote I posted. Is it your position that Ramana too was wrong or delusional about Self and Awareness? Good question. Niz, Ramana, Ramakrishna, Sekida, and countless other sages and Zen Masters who have talked and written about NS must be imagining things because their claims totally refute G's idea.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 13:16:52 GMT -5
You are not analyzing about dinosaurs, you are analysing about yourself. Can't you look at yourself find out how perception happens? Is it not perception is happening in you? Or are you looking at something out there ? Which one is true? I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if I play along, then I'd say #1: perception is happening in me. Before you started started the infinite loop with Zendancer, you took issue with the Ramana quote I posted. Is it your position that Ramana too was wrong or delusional about Self and Awareness? That's right, perception is happening in you, so this perception is inseparable from you? Yes? So the knower is not separate from the knowing? If awareness is that knower and it can be left with nothing when there is no perception, then are you not believing that that Awareness is the perceiver instead you think perceiver is arising in your awareness which means perceiver starts to appear when you come out of NS? Awareness itself is the perceiver or perceiver is arising in the awareness? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 22, 2022 13:30:19 GMT -5
It's not the "real" you going into or coming out of NS. It's the "dream/false" you submerged in the Real. Now the terms I have in quotes are concessions to the intellect, not the truth but useful in this context. There is only Self. Self vs self is a pointer. The you that comes out of NS only exists conceptually, a product of the I-thought. The Real you is timeless and imperceptible. It cannot be known in the usual way we know objects. Some say it is the Knowing. But it defies description. This speaks best to the OP, of all the posts. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2022 13:46:17 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if I play along, then I'd say #1: perception is happening in me. Before you started started the infinite loop with Zendancer, you took issue with the Ramana quote I posted. Is it your position that Ramana too was wrong or delusional about Self and Awareness? That's right, perception is happening in you, so this perception is inseparable from you? Yes? So the knower is not separate from the knowing? If awareness is that knower and it can be left with nothing when there is no perception, then are you not believing that that Awareness is the perceiver instead you think perceiver is arising in your awareness which means perceiver starts to appear when you come out of NS? Awareness itself is the perceiver or perceiver is arising in the awareness? Probably you could say Awareness is the true perceiver, and an ego arises in Awareness and tries to take ownership of "my awareness", and claim that it's a perceiver. But I'm not sure it matters. I notice you didn't answer any of my questions. Your sentences there are extremely hard to parse, but I think I get the gist of it. Why is it so hard for you to understand that this goes beyond words and logic? Everything in our everyday experience is like that. A bat can perceive flying insects with echolocation. If I give you words about it, are you going to know (gnosis) what that experience is like, for a bat? If you were born blind and had never seen a color, a description of "red" as "hot" or "not blue" or "like a sunset" is not going show you what red is truly like. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 22, 2022 13:54:40 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if I play along, then I'd say #1: perception is happening in me. Before you started started the infinite loop with Zendancer, you took issue with the Ramana quote I posted. Is it your position that Ramana too was wrong or delusional about Self and Awareness? That's right, perception is happening in you, so this perception is inseparable from you? Yes? So the knower is not separate from the knowing? If awareness is that knower and it can be left with nothing when there is no perception, then are you not believing that that Awareness is the perceiver instead you think perceiver is arising in your awareness which means perceiver starts to appear when you come out of NS? Awareness itself is the perceiver or perceiver is arising in the awareness? No reference so no understanding. The perceiver and every other separate thing appears in awareness. Awareness is one, so it can't be understood with the intellect. The intellect can only deal with duality, but awareness is non-dual. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 22, 2022 14:36:19 GMT -5
It's generally accepted here that awareness precedes everything, is primary, primordial. I agree. We all enter a period of unconsciousness every 24, sleep. If we are primarily awareness, and awareness supersedes, thought, feelings/emotions, bodily movements and sensations, then why do we ~go unconscious~ when we sleep? (Not saying there are no exceptions). Furthermore, in nirvikalpa samadhi, only-awareness-remains. So why doesn't one go-in-to nirvikalpa samadhi, during sleep? (For those who have experienced nirvikalpa samadhi). It seems we are all (mostly all) subject to the body, that awareness is subject to the needs of the body. Something seems amiss. Now, as you get older, dudes, you will have the following experience, you probably have at least on occasion, anyway. In the winter 5 hours is about my max, sometimes longer if I deliberately stop fluids after about 5PM, I can go 8 hours in the summer (sweating factor), nice. But usually during the night my bladder wakes me up and says, empty me now, I'll give you about one minute to start. So the body is exceptionally intelligent, it will wake us up to avoid, an *accident*. I had to look the name up, but we can narrow this issue down to the urethral sphincters, muscles. So it seems a battle ensues while we are yet asleep, between a full bladder and the pee-cut-off muscle. Of course, we know who wins and thusly wakes us up. (There is one more issue involved, the older you get gravity becomes part of the equation. I never understood this about my Father. He could be sitting quite comfortably, and then need to go, and when he got up, the need to go intensified beyond any proportion considered possible. Now I understand how gravity gets involved). So it seems in such a case that body-intelligence even supersedes and surpasses awareness, as it ~ controls~ access to awareness. It seems body-intelligence supersedes even nirvikalpa samadhi. Surely awareness doesn't need sleep, I'm sure awareness doesn't need sleep. So I'm also sure something is ~out of whack~ here, something is missing. I don't subscribe to your assumptions. Sleep isn't unconscious: your "awareness" is focused elsewhere than the physical; your physical-senses are dimmed down, and your inner-senses become primary. Consciousness "precedes" matter, creates matter; not the other way around. Consciousness is primary. You seem to call "awareness" the state of "being awake". "Awareness" is a feature of your non-physical identity, and it can be focused in other states than "awake". In that sense it is primordial. The "awake state" isn't primordial. Comparatively, the "dream state" as part of the "sleep state" (as called from the physical ego's perspective) are "more" primordial than the "awake state". Actually those states aren't really on / off, but they move between the foreground and the background of the "awareness" ' focus. "Awareness" isn't subject to the body's needs. It may respond to physical-stimuli, when it is mostly focused into other states than "awake", but the body is managed by the "subconscious" (which actually creates the physical-body, as everything else you perceive). The "body intelligence" is part of the "subconscious". "Awareness" never sleeps; it changes focus. This makes sense to me.Is it (all) experiential? |
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