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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 9:09:48 GMT -5
One must directly experience NS in order to have a reference for it. Without a reference, one can only engage in idle speculation. Can you know when you are in NS? Or you can only know after you came out from that state? The state of NS is known during NS, but not by a separate entity because there is no content and no separate observer. Satch is the expert on NS, so perhaps he can add his two cents. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 9:33:26 GMT -5
Can you know when you are in NS? Or you can only know after you came out from that state? but not by a separate entity because there is no content and no separate observer. Satch is the expert on NS, so perhaps he can add his two cents. Then there is something in your focus while you are there in NS. Cheers! |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 9:48:55 GMT -5
The state of NS is known during NS, but not by a separate entity because there is no content and no separate observer. Satch is the expert on NS, so perhaps he can add his two cents. Then there is something in your focus while you are there in NS. Cheers! Sorry, no reference and no understanding. Cheers!  Just to be clear, because language cannot capture what's being pointed to, there is awareness of pure awareness but not as a separate state. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 9:59:42 GMT -5
Then there is something in your focus while you are there in NS. Cheers! Sorry, no reference and no understanding. Cheers! Just to be clear, because language cannot capture what's being pointed to, there is awareness of pure awareness but not as a separate state. sorry you are not showing enough willingness to where I point at! May be somebody from this forum may help you about what I am talking about. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 10:09:39 GMT -5
Sorry, no reference and no understanding. Cheers! Just to be clear, because language cannot capture what's being pointed to, there is awareness of pure awareness but not as a separate state. sorry you are not showing enough willingness to where I point at! May be somebody from this forum may help you about what I am talking about. No reference for NS. I think that says it all. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 21, 2022 10:15:47 GMT -5
In NS there is no awareness of objects. Basically you are aware of breathing, and eventually the breath is no longer the breath, and you are not you. You've pretty much forgotten everything so when the gong sounds, you are disoriented momentarily. You don't know who you are, what you are, or where you are, then it all comes back, you and the world. Similar to deep sleep only you are sitting upright and quite alert, otherwise you get smacked with a kiusaku.
In deep sleep you are awareness, but there are no objects because the self (mind/ego) has withdrawn, receded.
Ramana uses a bucket in a well as an analogy. The bucket is temporarily submerged in the water, but it can be pulled out.
As pure awareness, there is no time or memory, so you can't know the experience in the way we know things typically. But you know you exist in deep sleep and in NS, so there is a form of awareness that is beyond or before mind and objects.
It isn't that I decided to believe Ramana and follow his teaching out of blind faith. It's that his teaching matched my experience in Zen and zazen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 10:24:43 GMT -5
In NS there is no awareness of objects. Basically you are aware of breathing, and eventually the breath is no longer the breath, and you are not you. You've pretty much forgotten everything so when the gong sounds, you are disoriented momentarily. You don't know who you are, what you are, or where you are, then it all comes back, you and the world. Similar to deep sleep only you are sitting upright and quite alert, otherwise you get smacked with a kiusaku. In deep sleep you are awareness, but there are no objects because the self (mind/ego) has withdrawn, receded. Ramana uses a bucket in a well as an analogy. The bucket is temporarily submerged in the water, but it can be pulled out. As pure awareness, there is no time or memory, so you can't know the experience in the way we know things typically. But you know you exist in deep sleep and in NS, so there is a form of awareness that is beyond or before mind and objects. It isn't that I decided to believe Ramana and follow his teaching out of blind faith. It's that his teaching matched my experience in Zen and zazen. You know you were there in deep sleep because you are coming out. You don't know when you were there. While we can't even recall where is the start of our own dream, we couldn't recall anything from there. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 10:33:46 GMT -5
In NS there is no awareness of objects. Basically you are aware of breathing, and eventually the breath is no longer the breath, and you are not you. You've pretty much forgotten everything so when the gong sounds, you are disoriented momentarily. You don't know who you are, what you are, or where you are, then it all comes back, you and the world. Similar to deep sleep only you are sitting upright and quite alert, otherwise you get smacked with a kiusaku. In deep sleep you are awareness, but there are no objects because the self (mind/ego) has withdrawn, receded. Ramana uses a bucket in a well as an analogy. The bucket is temporarily submerged in the water, but it can be pulled out. As pure awareness, there is no time or memory, so you can't know the experience in the way we know things typically. But you know you exist in deep sleep and in NS, so there is a form of awareness that is beyond or before mind and objects. It isn't that I decided to believe Ramana and follow his teaching out of blind faith. It's that his teaching matched my experience in Zen and zazen. You know you were there in deep sleep because you are coming out. You don't know when you were there. While we can't even recall where is the start of our own dream, we couldn't recall anything from there. No reference for NS. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 10:47:26 GMT -5
You know you were there in deep sleep because you are coming out. You don't know when you were there. While we can't even recall where is the start of our own dream, we couldn't recall anything from there. No reference for NS. "The state of NS is known during NS"
so....
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 10:58:57 GMT -5
"The state of NS is known during NS" so....
There is awareness of pure awareness, nothing else. It is not known as a state because there is no separate knower and no state known about separately, so don't jump to an erroneous conclusion due to language issues. Other subjects may be in the wheelhouse, but this one is not. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 11:03:59 GMT -5
"The state of NS is known during NS"
so....
You seem to be using word-logic and assuming that subject-object reality is final and absolute, and that word logic applies to everything. But Awareness is so primordial, it's like a "axiom" of existence. As you probably know, the axioms in a logical system, are not derived from logic; they just are. So if you want to investigate awareness, it might be better to be open to possibilities that don't conform to pre-existing word-logic. (Eg: "awareness is a subject, and always has an object.") |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 11:13:38 GMT -5
"The state of NS is known during NS" so....
There is awareness of pure awareness, nothing else. It is not known as a state because there is no separate knower and no state known about separately, so don't jump to an erroneous conclusion due to language issues. Other subjects may be in the wheelhouse, but this one is not. If you KNOW, then there is a process of knowing is happening, and the knower is not left with nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2022 11:16:03 GMT -5
"The state of NS is known during NS"
so....
You seem to be using word-logic and assuming that subject-object reality is final and absolute, and that word logic applies to everything. But Awareness is so primordial, it's like a "axiom" of existence. As you probably know, the axioms in a logical system, are not derived from logic; they just are. So if you want to investigate awareness, it might be better to be open to possibilities that don't conform to pre-existing word-logic. (Eg: "awareness is a subject, and always has an object.") That's not what I am saying. I am trying to prove the fact that both are one and can't be separated, one can't exist without another, infact, they are not two, they are one single unit. Awareness is part of the ongoing perception. Don't get deceived by zendancer's writing, just you look for yourself. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 12:26:26 GMT -5
There is awareness of pure awareness, nothing else. It is not known as a state because there is no separate knower and no state known about separately, so don't jump to an erroneous conclusion due to language issues. Other subjects may be in the wheelhouse, but this one is not. If you KNOW, then there is a process of knowing is happening, and the knower is not left with nothing. Sorry. No reference. NS is beyond logic and ideation. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2022 12:28:39 GMT -5
You seem to be using word-logic and assuming that subject-object reality is final and absolute, and that word logic applies to everything. But Awareness is so primordial, it's like a "axiom" of existence. As you probably know, the axioms in a logical system, are not derived from logic; they just are. So if you want to investigate awareness, it might be better to be open to possibilities that don't conform to pre-existing word-logic. (Eg: "awareness is a subject, and always has an object.") That's not what I am saying. I am trying to prove the fact that both are one and can't be separated, one can't exist without another, infact, they are not two, they are one single unit. Awareness is part of the ongoing perception. Don't get deceived by zendancer's writing, just you look for yourself. Good luck with proving anything when there is no reference.  |
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