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Post by laughter on Apr 20, 2023 2:35:40 GMT -5
Yes, exactly!
For years, I have noticed that he is trapped within his own beliefs, making it difficult for him to acknowledge alternative perspectives. He appears unwilling to entertain the idea that someone else might have a valid point of view, and this has prevented him from being receptive to feedback or criticism Bill is looking at you right now  (sorry B, no major offence meant)  .... ... oh! ... the .. help! ... kant stop !!!!! ....... |
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Post by laughter on Apr 20, 2023 2:42:55 GMT -5
So true. I would much rather be driving on a highway with people who are silently attentive than people who are lost in thoughts. One of the reasons I started a separate thread about what the word "meditation" points to is that that activity is much broader than the conventional definition would suggest. People who have never experienced sustained mental silence cannot imagine the high level of functionality that it entails. I explained that silent looking at "what is" is exactly the same activity involved in formal meditative activities even though such informal silent awareness isn't usually recognized as an identical activity. In both formal and informal attentiveness activities, the focus of attention is upon what is actual rather than what is imaginary. Not only was Norio Kushi, a personal friend of mine, accurately describing what happened when his mind went silent for two weeks, but over the years I've posted many similar accounts, and Gary Weber has also written extensively about this. One of the most amazing accounts was that of the air traffic controller IT guy whose mind suddenly went silent in the midst of a major emergency at Dulles Intl airport. He claimed that he calmly resolved the emergency and did all kinds of complex things with a totally silent mind while everyone around him was going crazy with worry and an inability to figure out what to do. In fact, he was so astonished at what happened, that he came to a TAT retreat because that event got him interested in non-duality. During the emergency at the airport his mind went totally silent and stayed silent for one day. A year later, during a weeklong retreat near Lake Tahoe, his mind went silent for four days, but the silence in no way adversely affected his ability to function. If anything it enhanced his functionality. Weber claimed that when that happened to him immediately prior to an important business meeting, he actually performed at such a high level that it astonished him. This has also happened to many mountain climbers who have written about it. In one case, a rock climber was about to peel off a rock face, when his mind went silent and his focus upon the rock became so intense that he fell into what athletes call "the zone." As he put it, "Something else took over," and he was able to scale the face making what he claimed were previously unthinkable moves. I can think of many other examples of this, but if someone has never attained any degree of mental silence, or experienced sustained mental silence, then s/he would have no basis for understanding or judging what's being pointed to. AAMOF, I frequently drive to town in mental silence, and I'm probably much more alert to everything that's happening than most other drivers on the road. In my case it's not purposeful; it's just the result of having done ATA-T for so many years that the mind periodically stops thinking. Becoming mentally silent in no way reduces one's alertness or functionality. A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly, once your mind is quiet. As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind. In the light of calm and steady self-awareness, inner energies wake up and work miracles without any effort on your part Nisargadatta Maharaj Yes. Now, that said, there can be a sort of "bounce" off of the infinite after experiencing one of the intervals zd has written about. Dunno' for sure, but you may or may not recall some of the hyperminding I did over on the Tolle form all those years ago now. (you were there for the tail end of it) .. all mind-spin on the existential question ...  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 20, 2023 2:44:26 GMT -5
I don't consider that an ad hominem attack, Gopal is just stating facts. The blood in your veins would freeze if you read some of the things I've read here on ST's forum. I simply stated a fact and did not intend to attack him. It appears that his only interest is in teaching, and if others attempt to teach as well, he perceives it as an attack. I encountered a similar individual on a technical forum called Stack Overflow who is highly ranked in Selenium, but lacks a basic understanding of the subject. When I attempted to correct him, he was not receptive to the idea. He even created a post in the user section claiming that I was causing trouble. Although some people defended me and others supported him, ultimately nothing was resolved. Well, I was actually very shocked by what he wrote about you concerning this, very uncharacteristic of him. What you wrote was nothing, nothing. He probably was just having a bad day. Now, laughter can be very subtle. He can stab you in the back and make you want to thank him.  |
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Post by laughter on Apr 20, 2023 2:48:19 GMT -5
A wise man once said, I forget who, the notion of responsibility(who's driving) only has relevance if you identify as a separate body/mind. A famous Japanese katana master taught his students by attacking them when they didn't expect it because that way they learned to react spontaneously, without or ahead of thought. "Subconscious is a Freudian term or am I wrong? Speaking off the cuff (or, of course, you can choose a different metaphor) and without actually having read either of them, my impression is that Jung's idea of the subconscious expanded on and went sideways to Freud, with interesting results. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 20, 2023 2:54:14 GMT -5
Well, house makes it very personal, immediate. Yes, but it's also a completely different metaphor. Out of the frying pan, into the fire, after all. I'll have to go back and look at it, if Buddha said house, or world, or both (at different times). |
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Post by andrew on Apr 20, 2023 3:02:04 GMT -5
Just to throw a spanner in the driving works, Abraham has actually said that the reason that there are relatively so FEW accidents on highways is because people enjoy their car space, relax, and allow themselves to often drift into happy thoughts while driving. This is probably less true in cities, when our attention is demanded a lot more on the roads, and actually people are then grumpier drivers.
I've done tons of driving in my life, often drift into thought, and yet my alert responses seem to be amazing...they often surprise me... perhaps because I'm NOT focusing that much on the road. My responses may be better when the attentive 'I' is only slightly focused on what's happening. I have done still mind exercises while driving, but I usually enjoy listening to music more, and the music often takes me to interesting and good places.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 20, 2023 3:03:17 GMT -5
A wise man once said, I forget who, the notion of responsibility(who's driving) only has relevance if you identify as a separate body/mind. A famous Japanese katana master taught his students by attacking them when they didn't expect it because that way they learned to react spontaneously, without or ahead of thought. "Subconscious is a Freudian term or am I wrong? Speaking off the cuff (or, of course, you can choose a different metaphor) and without actually having read either of them, my impression is that Jung's idea of the subconscious expanded on and went sideways to Freud, with interesting results. I explore Jung from time to time. Everything he wrote and explored was from his own experience, no theoretical nonsense. Jung was VERY advanced, a kind of public mystic, but he never said this openly. Outwardly, he was a "scientist". Inwardly, he lived everything he wrote about, the writing came out of his lived experience. His famous Red Book says a lot. I read something just the other day I'd never heard before. He had a famous retreat also, he did hands-on work there. He just saw what needed to be done next, and did it. The quote was something like, yea, those stones were calling out to me that they wanted to become a wall, so I built a wall from them. That's pretty cool. Yes, Jung experienced that we had a common unconscious, the collective unconscious. |
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Post by zazeniac on Apr 20, 2023 7:29:32 GMT -5
A wise man once said, I forget who, the notion of responsibility(who's driving) only has relevance if you identify as a separate body/mind. A famous Japanese katana master taught his students by attacking them when they didn't expect it because that way they learned to react spontaneously, without or ahead of thought. "Subconscious is a Freudian term or am I wrong? Speaking off the cuff (or, of course, you can choose a different metaphor) and without actually having read either of them, my impression is that Jung's idea of the subconscious expanded on and went sideways to Freud, with interesting results. Did a little digging. There's some debate on the matter. Not that it's relevant. I don't think it's a concept that is common in advaita vedanta. It seems to me that's all there is. The conscious component is just a color commentator and at times an interloper that gets in the way. I mean you can consciously fart, but where does the idea to do so come from. But I don't want to turn this into a Lincoln-Douglass debate. It's not relevant to practice which is all that those of us on this side of the Styx can do. Dogen and Ramana(savikalpa samadhi) and zd(ATA) say so. Good enough for me. A friend just did an ayahuasca ritual. He says he'll speak to me about it soon. I'll give you guys a brief report. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 7:53:22 GMT -5
I'm reminded of one the most practical bits of advice that Polonius had to give. Which advice? I'm not much into Shakespeare. Funny, I typed the name into duckduckgo and one of the first hits is wikipedia: "Generally regarded as wrong in every judgment he makes over the course of the play ..." So if you answer, I'll still have to deal with possible irony. In these matters, I prefer be simple and not overly clever. There's enough room for confusion already. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 9:11:14 GMT -5
I simply stated a fact and did not intend to attack him. It appears that his only interest is in teaching, and if others attempt to teach as well, he perceives it as an attack. I encountered a similar individual on a technical forum called Stack Overflow who is highly ranked in Selenium, but lacks a basic understanding of the subject. When I attempted to correct him, he was not receptive to the idea. He even created a post in the user section claiming that I was causing trouble. Although some people defended me and others supported him, ultimately nothing was resolved. Well, I was actually very shocked by what he wrote about you concerning this, very uncharacteristic of him. What you wrote was nothing, nothing. He probably was just having a bad day. Bad day for sure |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 20, 2023 9:59:24 GMT -5
sdp likes multiple times. You're not going to get anywhere with ZD. I've had this dialogue with him off and on, for years. He bent just a little a few days ago, admitting there is such a thing as the brain and brain processing (my words). Years ago I gave the image of an hourglass. The top and bottom (and vice versa) are like the Whole. The narrow opening in the middle where just a little sand passes through is like a persons mind-brain-body-consciousness processing information. And ZD just said no, it doesn't work that way, it's always the Whole in action. But Gopal, on this, you are light years ahead of ZD. Your understanding surpasses ZD an untold amount. It's like there is a blockage for ZD, how he can't see this. I would just shake my head and walk away, give up. I support you 100%. I think lolly would also support you in this. lolly is a very smart dude too. Karma, and it's operation in the universe, just cannot be denied. But ZD always has this blank check in his pocket: Too bad, you just don't understand. Bull manure. When anyone thinks in yes or no, there's a problem. The higher includes yes and no. I tried to go into the two truths one time, how there is absolute Truth OTOH and relative truth OToH. He just pulled his magic wand out, No, not correct, there is ONLY ONE TRUTH. I'm glad somebody else here has some ____s to stand up to ZD's nonsense. (sdp added the emphasis). It is difficult to communicate with him as pointing out that he is not attentive can be perceived as an attack, causing a problem. Additionally, he may not take well to having his ideas challenged and may interpret it negatively. FWIW, I never mind anyone challenging ideas as long as it relates to ideas and doesn't involve denigration and ad hominem-type comments. In fact, it helps to avoid "I/you" statements altogether. Rather than writing that someone one disagrees with is ignorant, blind, etc., write about whatever ideas have been expressed. Most sages encourage skepticism and frequently say, "Don't accept what I'm saying as anything other than a pointer. Each human must find the truth for him/herself." |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 20, 2023 10:45:56 GMT -5
A surfer is always one-with "what is," so s/he is always one-with both the wave and the ocean and all else (including thoughts). Surfing and skiing, however, are two activities that athletes sometimes mention pursuing with a silent mind. Usually surfers and skiers are focused so strongly on what's happening that there's very little, if any, reflective thinking. I was never a surfer, but as an average skier, I know that whenever I plummeted down a black diamond ski slope there was never any thinking about the past or future! Yes, but what does "training" mean? Being 'always one-with "what is," so s/he is always one-with both the wave and the ocean and all else (including thoughts)' isn't enough to even stand while surfing or skiing. What does training accomplish? You can't modify your instincts, you don't use your intellect, you don't think, ... What does training do? Not sure that I understand the question. THIS in the form of a particular human does whatever is done in that form. In the form of humans THIS can train itself to speed-read, play the piano, ski, surf, stop thinking, etc. The fundamental point is that there's no separate volitional entity involved in anything that happens. The sense of "me" is some sort of thought structure that is imagined and reinforced by cultural conditioning and isn't necessary. What we ARE is the entire unified field of all being, and that field of being, or whatever we want to call it, is incomprehensibly intelligent. The usual sense of selfhood can totally vanish, but the body/mind organism will continue to function intelligently with or without abstract thought. Humans can learn both directly through the body and indirectly through the intellect. Many things are learned in the same way as riding a bicycle--by doing it. As another example, many animals, without the use of abstract thought, learn how to do things by simply watching older animals do those things. Bears, crows, and hundreds of other animals show their offspring how to find food and perform various tasks without the use of communicated images, ideas, and symbols. I went to a gym a few days ago to do some strength training. There were many new and unfamiliar machines, but I could look at the pictures posted on the machines and figure out how to use them. Others were so complex that I paid a trainer for an hour to show me how to use them. Some of the learning occurred through language and other learning occurred simply by watching what the trainer did when she adjusted the machine, got into position, and did a particular exercise. Through language she explained why the seats and other components needed to be set in a particular way to avoid knee strain or potential joint damage. What we are is intelligent, but the intellect is like the tip of the iceberg of that intelligence. It's like a hand-held calculator compared to a massive mainframe computer. It's obviously useful because it allows humans to imagine possible future consequences of present actions, but people who discover the deeper and vaster field of intelligence that underlies everything also discover the limited nature of the intellect. They also usually discover that 95-99% of all reflective thinking is just an unnecessary habit--a habit that causes a lot of suffering due to getting attached to many erroneous ideas and beliefs. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 20, 2023 11:07:33 GMT -5
I simply stated a fact and did not intend to attack him. It appears that his only interest is in teaching, and if others attempt to teach as well, he perceives it as an attack. I encountered a similar individual on a technical forum called Stack Overflow who is highly ranked in Selenium, but lacks a basic understanding of the subject. When I attempted to correct him, he was not receptive to the idea. He even created a post in the user section claiming that I was causing trouble. Although some people defended me and others supported him, ultimately nothing was resolved. Well, I was actually very shocked by what he wrote about you concerning this, very uncharacteristic of him. What you wrote was nothing, nothing. He probably was just having a bad day. Now, laughter can be very subtle. He can stab you in the back and make you want to thank him. I have no idea what you're referring to, but from my POV I'm like the old Zen Master who said, "Every day is a good day." Can I get irritated? Yes. Do I mind if people disagree? No. Reefs has established some rules that I think are beneficial, and one of those rules is to stay away from ad hominem comments and the whole "I/you" kind of thing. From my POV this is a very unusual forum because all of the people who post here seem highly intelligent, extremely well educated, and are amazingly good writers. The quality of the writing, alone, is far beyond what is usually found on online forums. I'm sure that Gopal is much smarter than I am, and I respect his intelligence. He's had a significant realization and that should be applauded. However, it's "turtles all the way down," and there doesn't seem to be any end to the depth of what can be discovered on the path of ND. Hakuin is an object lesson in this regard. He had a mind-blowing CC, and thought that he had become enlightened. He went to his teacher, expressed his understanding, and got laughed at. Later, he had another mind-blowing breakthrough, and after presenting his understanding to his teacher, he got knocked on his butt, and his teacher began calling him "that poor hole-dwelling devil." A while later he had another realization and his teacher quit laughing at him. Nevertheless, his teacher never sanctioned his understanding. Hakuin continued contemplating and meditating and had many more realizations before he finally attained what Dilullo calls "liberation" and an end to the search. By the time Hakuin attained liberation his old teacher had died, and Hakuin said, "I never fully appreciated the depth of my teacher's realization and understanding until many years after my first interaction with him. If nothing else, this path is supremely humbling, and one's humility continues to increase as one sees more and more deeply into the nature of THIS. |
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Post by inavalan on Apr 20, 2023 11:31:06 GMT -5
Yes on both. The way I understand these, the physical-reality is a virtual framework for learning. There is no objective physical-reality observed by participants. All participants are interconnected, and based on the information they exchange everyone's subconscious creates a version of the physical-reality that the outer-ego perceives through the physical-senses associated to a virtual physical-body, an avatar. When immersed in the awake state, the outer-ego, due to societal conditioning, has no idea that everything is virtual. I cannot disregard my physical-body when awake because that's my avatar with which I participate in the virtual physical-reality. But there is no objective physical-body. All the interconnections are at non-physical level. All is virtual, and all I perceive and I experience is based on my personality's state of consciousness and its focus (direction, and depth). OK, in principle no problem with any of that. ? Is there a shared "virtual framework"? Yes. That's what I meant by " All participants are interconnected". |
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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 20, 2023 12:26:14 GMT -5
Just to throw a spanner in the driving works, Abraham has actually said that the reason that there are relatively so FEW accidents on highways is because people enjoy their car space, relax, and allow themselves to often drift into happy thoughts while driving. This is probably less true in cities, when our attention is demanded a lot more on the roads, and actually people are then grumpier drivers. I've done tons of driving in my life, often drift into thought, and yet my alert responses seem to be amazing...they often surprise me... perhaps because I'm NOT focusing that much on the road. My responses may be better when the attentive 'I' is only slightly focused on what's happening. I have done still mind exercises while driving, but I usually enjoy listening to music more, and the music often takes me to interesting and good places. I remember the first time I turned my attention inward years ago. I was walking on a beach and suddenly noticed how incredibly noisy and out of control my mind was. TV Commerciala and other non-sense, non-freaking stop. I was horrified and immediately became motivated to find the off switch. One of the things I would do back then was while driving is I would shift my attention from the head noise to noticing my hand on the steering wheel. I would just notice it, feel the feeling of it there. It wouldn't be long before my attention was caught up in mental noise again but as soon as I noticed that I would shift attention back to the feeling of my hand on the wheel. It was the start of a beautiful thing. I can relate to what Socrates in the Peaceful Warrior when he says " It's taken a life time". |
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(sorry B, no major offence meant)
