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Post by Reefs on Dec 7, 2022 23:49:53 GMT -5
Yes, it's worth looking up these terms in a Sanskrit dictionary for yourself. I find that different teachers use these terms in slightly different ways or different terms for the exact same thing. Which is probably where the confusion comes from and why I prefer plain English over Sanskrit. ETA: FWIW, I looked up the glossary in Waite's book. He understands Sanskrit and has been reading the vedic classics in the original. This is how he translates it: Waite writes: Right, and it appears that each major school of Vedanta also has their own nuances to the terminology, even shtiti. I suppose that the meanings adopted are indicative of what resonates with or is intended by the user (speakers/listeners) at the time, so yeah, can get messy. ..🎯..That's a good reference book. It's an excellent book. It gives you a solid foundation on Advaita philosophy, its logic and terminology. Lots of good quotes from other teachers in there, too. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 7, 2022 23:57:17 GMT -5
I would say it's logical that it would be accompanied by a realization when it happens because it is the impersonal perspective. I don't trust those reports about Ramana though. I find the deification of Ramana by certain authors a bit weird. It doesn't ring true (and from an alignment perspective it is demonstrably not true) but it is also counter to Ramana's message. I'm curious, you both say it saved your marriage. How? Probably different realizations but Laffy can clarify/verify. The realization here was suddenly seeing how the idea of running off to a wilderness in order to regain a CC state of mind was keeping me separated from the truth of whatever was happening in the present moment. My wife's security had been threatened when, after a CC, I expressed an interest in giving everything away, and it was further threatened because she knew the story of the Buddha, and suspected that I might leave her and our daughter at any time and go off in search of the truth. I realized on that particular day that if what I wanted to know could be found, it would have to be found through the activity of everyday life and what this mind/body organism was already doing. I realized that my attachment to thoughts about running off to a wilderness was an escapist fantasy. This realization totally changed my perspective and shifted my interest back to my work and family at a time when my wife was on the verge of giving up on our relationship and leaving. The ND pathless path can take many unexpected twists and turns!  Ah, I see. I was on a similar 'traveling lightly' trip. But that was long before I 'settled down' so to speak. I was really on my own at that time, no one else to care for or to even consider. So I could have done it easily. I actually had a friend who did it. He went off to China and lived with some Taoists in a temple. But I still didn't do it somehow. Like you, I realized that if it can't be found here and now, what's the point? Well, and shortly after that, I went to the beach... that beach! BOOM!  |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 8, 2022 0:00:40 GMT -5
Probably different realizations but Laffy can clarify/verify. The realization here was suddenly seeing how the idea of running off to a wilderness in order to regain a CC state of mind was keeping me separated from the truth of whatever was happening in the present moment. My wife's security had been threatened when, after a CC, I expressed an interest in giving everything away, and it was further threatened because she knew the story of the Buddha, and suspected that I might leave her and our daughter at any time and go off in search of the truth. I realized on that particular day that if what I wanted to know could be found, it would have to be found through the activity of everyday life and what this mind/body organism was already doing. I realized that my attachment to thoughts about running off to a wilderness was an escapist fantasy. This realization totally changed my perspective and shifted my interest back to my work and family at a time when my wife was on the verge of giving up on our relationship and leaving. The ND pathless path can take many unexpected twists and turns! Nice. Indeed, if IT ain't right HERE, right NOW, it ain't IT. And if it ain't, it's OK, if it is what it is and there's a maturing openness to understanding how the mind makes the boundaries. Even that realization can be a decent pinch in a dream. As I think I've already shared, I told my wife if we had met 1-2-3 years before, I assume she would have walked right on by, maybe have run. That bad, eh? ** imagines SN in disheveled sadhu outfit ** |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 8, 2022 0:02:26 GMT -5
Right, and it appears that each major school of Vedanta also has their own nuances to the terminology, even shtiti. I suppose that the meanings adopted are indicative of what resonates with or is intended by the user (speakers/listeners) at the time, so yeah, can get messy. ..🎯..That's a good reference book. To me, to figure these out, the best way is to use something as a basis, a conduit for your tapping of your intuition and inner guidance. That something has to be something that doesn't already distort the knowledge you quest for. An asparagus bunch is a less misleading basis, conduit than any sage or dogma. In this respect, I value more a Sanskrit dictionary than I value a guru's interpretation of a term, both when they put in words their own beliefs, and when they try to interpret others'. You don't try to intellectually understand the meaning of a word, or phrase, but you treat it as a symbol for a concept. Every symbol can be interpreted on multiple levels, deeper and deeper (or higher and higher ), depending on where the seeker is situated on his infinite quest. For example, you can't fully trust anybody to interpret Ramana, and also you can't fully trust Ramana's interpretation of "the" truth. An asparagus bunch is likely to get you closer if you aren't arrogant, nor stubborn. ====== EDIT: This applies to forums too. Bouncing your beliefs of others is more helpful than arguing the merits of your beliefs, or theirs. From this perspective, those who just parrot a single belief are less helpful than those who can answer more nuanced. It is like bouncing your ball from a smooth wall, vs. bouncing it from a rugged one; dogma vs. asparagus bunch. Have you ever experienced a state of no thought? Just direct, raw sensory perception, but without any thought or idea of what you were perceiving? |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 8, 2022 1:41:11 GMT -5
To me, to figure these out, the best way is to use something as a basis, a conduit for your tapping of your intuition and inner guidance. That something has to be something that doesn't already distort the knowledge you quest for. An asparagus bunch is a less misleading basis, conduit than any sage or dogma. In this respect, I value more a Sanskrit dictionary than I value a guru's interpretation of a term, both when they put in words their own beliefs, and when they try to interpret others'. You don't try to intellectually understand the meaning of a word, or phrase, but you treat it as a symbol for a concept. Every symbol can be interpreted on multiple levels, deeper and deeper (or higher and higher ), depending on where the seeker is situated on his infinite quest. For example, you can't fully trust anybody to interpret Ramana, and also you can't fully trust Ramana's interpretation of "the" truth. An asparagus bunch is likely to get you closer if you aren't arrogant, nor stubborn. ====== EDIT: This applies to forums too. Bouncing your beliefs of others is more helpful than arguing the merits of your beliefs, or theirs. From this perspective, those who just parrot a single belief are less helpful than those who can answer more nuanced. It is like bouncing your ball from a smooth wall, vs. bouncing it from a rugged one; dogma vs. asparagus bunch. Have you ever experienced a state of no thought? Just direct, raw sensory perception, but without any thought or idea of what you were perceiving? I am not sure I don't misinterpret your question, but I control my focus of attention as I want, quite well. I can not-think about anything and focus on nothing, as I can focus on any combination of physical and or physic senses. Usually, whatever state of consciousness or whatever reality I am focusing in, I firstly ask my subconscious to suspend all my beliefs and expectations, which includes all thoughts too. I do this to minimize distortions. I can experience a state of expanded-awareness in which I turn on all the psychic- / inner-senses, in a state of openness with no expectations, no thoughts, no beliefs. More rarely, I include in this the boosting of all my physical-senses, for example when walking, but I don't find a good use for that state. If I just stay in the state of expanded-awareness, with no intent, I experience a feeling of expanded potential, of which I make no choices. I feel that I can touch any point of the wider-reality up to the limit of my current evolvement. I am somehow on the other side of my subconscious. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 9, 2022 8:21:07 GMT -5
At the same time, even though there’s a certain science to how they are nurtured and/or applied, he also warns against the pursuit of these siddhis at the expense of realizing Self (he stated as the most important, and I’d agree), because they typically would reinforce the sense of a separate self due to the pride, arrogance, and inflated ego. I'm open minded enough to perhaps consider experiences where there's still self-referential "thought" to be this "deep flow", but this is certainly a significant conceptual distinction. As I like to joke with zd: it's one of those "ya' kinda' not have to have been there" thingies ... That would just prove that you are not SR to the SR police. So better not go there.  |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 9, 2022 8:25:03 GMT -5
I haven't read much about siddhis, and I would certainly not suggest that anyone chase after special experiences, powers, CC's, etc because such chasing would be a movement in the wrong direction and would enhance the sense of being a SVP seeking to go from point A to point B (when most of us would probably agree that there is no point B). I was lucky to find the community I did back in '10. The whole ego game of claiming enlightenment hadn't even occurred to me until it became clear this was a major interest to some folks in that dialog. The clearest voices there resonated with the informing of mind that followed: what is realized is that the existential truth isn't a reward for hard work or good behavior, and that it's not going to make you a superpeep either. Instead, it's a simple, and yet subtle commonality among anyone and everyone. Nothing more or less than the awareness of being. Not anyone's fault that it seems so easy to overlook.  In that context, after more than 10 years on these forums, would you say that these forums are more helping or more hindering in the process of becoming conscious. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 9, 2022 8:32:03 GMT -5
From "Be As You Are" where Godman clarifies and summarizes RM's views on Samadhi. In my view RM saw KNS and savikalpa samadhi as intermediate stages on the path to sahaja. Several times, RM mentions the removal of vasanas as a necessary pre-requisite to sahaja. This excision occurs as one practices SI. "The classification generally used by Sri Ramana divides the various samadhis into the following three-fold division: 1 Sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi This is the state of the jnani who has finally and irrevocably eliminated his ego. Sahaja means ‘natural’ and nirvikalpa means ‘no differences’. A jnani in this state is able to function naturally in the world, just as any ordinary person does. Knowing that he is the Self, the sahaja jnani sees no difference between himself and others and no difference between himself and the world. For such a person, everything is a manifestation of the indivisible Self. 2 Kevala nirvikalpa samadhi This is the stage below Self-realization. In this state there is a temporary but effortless Self-awareness, but the ego has not been finally eliminated. It is characterised by an absence of body-consciousness. Although one has a temporary awareness of the Self in this state, one is not able to perceive sensory information or function in the world. When body-consciousness returns, the ego reappears. 3 Savikalpa samadhi In this state Self-awareness is maintained by constant effort. The continuity of the samadhi is wholly dependent on the effort put in to maintain it. When Self-attention wavers, Self-awareness is obscured. The following brief definitions formulated by Sri Ramana should be sufficient to guide the uninitiated through the terminological jungle of samadhi: 1 Holding on to reality is samadhi. 2 Holding on to reality with effort is savikalpa samadhi. 3 Merging in reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa samadhi. 4 Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep. 5 Remaining in the primal, pure, natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. You also gotta ask yourself what's really the point of all these finer and finer distinctions between different states of being. IMO, as Waite pointed out also, Ramana is unnecessarily confusing here with his vocabulary. Bottom line is, there's the natural state and you are either aware of it in this moment right here right now or you are not. Simple. No PhD in samadhi studies required. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 9, 2022 8:39:53 GMT -5
I would say it's logical that it would be accompanied by a realization when it happens because it is the impersonal perspective. I don't trust those reports about Ramana though. I find the deification of Ramana by certain authors a bit weird. It doesn't ring true (and from an alignment perspective it is demonstrably not true) but it is also counter to Ramana's message. I'm curious, you both say it saved your marriage. How? For me it was because of conflict. I guess people get divorced because they reach a point where they don't want to tolerate conflict any longer. I've told this story multiple times, about how, sometime in the weeks after the vanishing act, we were laying in bed together, talking, and she started to get really angry. She started hurling all these nasty insults, and I was literally like "who is this you, she keeps referring to??  ". ... (** muttley snicker **) .. perhaps that's what "couples therapy" is trying to acheive: at least a temporary pause in the constant cycle of reactivity, cause in the past, that's how it would have gone. Either that or their lives move into different directions. There are couples who separate amicably and remain on very good terms. So you basically just stopped reacting because there was nothing that could be triggered anymore, is that what you are saying? How did she react to that non-reactivity? I'd imagine it would make some people extra mad, at least temporarily until they give up. I noticed that with parents and children especially. The child often becomes part of the self-image and self-identity of the parent. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 9, 2022 8:52:14 GMT -5
Have you ever experienced a state of no thought? Just direct, raw sensory perception, but without any thought or idea of what you were perceiving? I am not sure I don't misinterpret your question, but I control my focus of attention as I want, quite well. I can not-think about anything and focus on nothing, as I can focus on any combination of physical and or physic senses. Usually, whatever state of consciousness or whatever reality I am focusing in, I firstly ask my subconscious to suspend all my beliefs and expectations, which includes all thoughts too. I do this to minimize distortions. I can experience a state of expanded-awareness in which I turn on all the psychic- / inner-senses, in a state of openness with no expectations, no thoughts, no beliefs. More rarely, I include in this the boosting of all my physical-senses, for example when walking, but I don't find a good use for that state. If I just stay in the state of expanded-awareness, with no intent, I experience a feeling of expanded potential, of which I make no choices. I feel that I can touch any point of the wider-reality up to the limit of my current evolvement. I am somehow on the other side of my subconscious. That's not quite it. Because it's still in the realm of categorizing perception and experience. Although this is getting really close. It's an important question to ask and answer, because a reference for this state is necessary for a mutual understanding between us re: this SR business. Without it, we'd just accuse each other of making stuff up. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2022 10:16:38 GMT -5
I'm open minded enough to perhaps consider experiences where there's still self-referential "thought" to be this "deep flow", but this is certainly a significant conceptual distinction. As I like to joke with zd: it's one of those "ya' kinda' not have to have been there" thingies ... That would just prove that you are not SR to the SR police. So better not go there. Well, first off .. (** muttley snicker **) and who cares? .. but 2nd off .. huh?? .. why? |
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2022 10:21:18 GMT -5
I was lucky to find the community I did back in '10. The whole ego game of claiming enlightenment hadn't even occurred to me until it became clear this was a major interest to some folks in that dialog. The clearest voices there resonated with the informing of mind that followed: what is realized is that the existential truth isn't a reward for hard work or good behavior, and that it's not going to make you a superpeep either. Instead, it's a simple, and yet subtle commonality among anyone and everyone. Nothing more or less than the awareness of being. Not anyone's fault that it seems so easy to overlook. In that context, after more than 10 years on these forums, would you say that these forums are more helping or more hindering in the process of becoming conscious. I think all the culture that came before already answers that question. Zen and Advaita are to some degrees exceptions in certain instances, but culture is always antithetical to the existential truth. You pointed that out yourself with the quip about "simplicity incarnate" .. the best culture can ever do is point, and it will always go through cycles. The bottom line is that the internet offers a great opportunity, and there are some people who will benefit from that. Results will always vary. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2022 10:22:36 GMT -5
I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. You also gotta ask yourself what's really the point of all these finer and finer distinctions between different states of being. IMO, as Waite pointed out also, Ramana is unnecessarily confusing here with his vocabulary. Bottom line is, there's the natural state and you are either aware of it in this moment right here right now or you are not. Simple. No PhD in samadhi studies required. I hereby re-christen salvikalpa samadhi to be Tiger Saliva Samadhi.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 9, 2022 10:25:08 GMT -5
For me it was because of conflict. I guess people get divorced because they reach a point where they don't want to tolerate conflict any longer. I've told this story multiple times, about how, sometime in the weeks after the vanishing act, we were laying in bed together, talking, and she started to get really angry. She started hurling all these nasty insults, and I was literally like "who is this you, she keeps referring to?? ". ... (** muttley snicker **) .. perhaps that's what "couples therapy" is trying to acheive: at least a temporary pause in the constant cycle of reactivity, cause in the past, that's how it would have gone. Either that or their lives move into different directions. There are couples who separate amicably and remain on very good terms. So you basically just stopped reacting because there was nothing that could be triggered anymore, is that what you are saying? How did she react to that non-reactivity? I'd imagine it would make some people extra mad, at least temporarily until they give up. I noticed that with parents and children especially. The child often becomes part of the self-image and self-identity of the parent. it was just like a muffled thud behind a closed door.  |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 9, 2022 12:49:09 GMT -5
I can recognize "savikalpa samadhi" as what Albert Low suggested in his book, The Iron Cow of Zen. The way he puts it is to "arouse the mind without resting it anywhere". Evidently, he traced this as somehow paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra, but I've never picked up on that in my readings of the DS and haven't been back to Iron Cow since the first time I read it. Never would have had any interest in any of it without having experienced the sudden, temporary vanishing act of the phantom. You also gotta ask yourself what's really the point of all these finer and finer distinctions between different states of being. IMO, as Waite pointed out also, Ramana is unnecessarily confusing here with his vocabulary. Bottom line is, there's the natural state and you are either aware of it in this moment right here right now or you are not. Simple. No PhD in samadhi studies required. I often talk to ND groups about different forms of samadhi for various reasons. First, everyday samadhi is something most adults can understand from their own experience (even if they haven't previously thought about it), and I use that as a simple example of getting lost in the flow of life. I explain that when one's attention becomes deeply focused on some activity, selfhood and the usual sense of time and space disappear. The sense of being a SVP only returns when self-referential thoughts return. In this sense, the sense of selfhood appears and disappears throughout the day as a result of whether reflective thoughts are dominating one's attention or not. When pointing to everyday samadhi of the bricklayer type, I'm suggesting that after one becomes conscious of that kind of flow and understands the importance of it, that can be a gateway to the kind of silent awareness that often results in realizations. ZMSS used to tell his students, "Just do it!" and that admonition is pointing to the same thing. Don't think, don't equivocate, don't wobble, forget the idea of control; become psychologically unified with life by doing whatever needs to be done and then doing the next thing that needs to be done. Second, people are curious about samadhi states that may occur during meditation or other activities, so I explain that everyday samadhi is relatively superficial compared to "being in the zone" and extremely superficial compared to NS. The bottom line is that any discussions about various kinds of samadhi are all pointing to the natural state and what might trigger a recognition/realization of the natural state and a penetration of the SVP illusion. |
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