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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 15:28:11 GMT -5
An Italian.mother. That explains a lot. I used to visit my cousin in Middletown, New York. All his friends were Italian, great soccer players. Second generation. They spoke the language. I remember every house I visited the mom offering me food. I never ate so much in my life. Grapes, pasta, bread, cheese. It was none stop eating. And they were so persistent. In their eyes I was too skinny. Poor sree. Plus all that Catholic religion. All that guilt. I get it now. Don't get me wrong, they were the nicest people. My grandma was a devout Catholic. She went to church everyday to attend morning mass and ate her wafer (body of Christ). She always carried her rosary in her hands; and whenever I visited her, she would hug and kiss me, and made the sign of the cross...using her thumb to touch my forehead, right shoulder, left shoulder, and my chest. My grandma was a wonderful woman, an excellent cook, a matriarch who gave strength to and held the family together. Joe Biden should have his ass kicked for making fun of his own religion.
Religion is important to people. Without it, life would be too hard to bear. Hedonism, which is destroying our country, has become the religion of America.
And did your family break apart when she died? |
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Aug 6, 2022 16:22:20 GMT -5
Post by zazeniac on Aug 6, 2022 16:22:20 GMT -5
An Italian.mother. That explains a lot. I used to visit my cousin in Middletown, New York. All his friends were Italian, great soccer players. Second generation. They spoke the language. I remember every house I visited the mom offering me food. I never ate so much in my life. Grapes, pasta, bread, cheese. It was none stop eating. And they were so persistent. In their eyes I was too skinny. Poor sree. Plus all that Catholic religion. All that guilt. I get it now. Don't get me wrong, they were the nicest people. My grandma was a devout Catholic. She went to church everyday to attend morning mass and ate her wafer (body of Christ). She always carried her rosary in her hands; and whenever I visited her, she would hug and kiss me, and made the sign of the cross...using her thumb to touch my forehead, right shoulder, left shoulder, and my chest. My grandma was a wonderful woman, an excellent cook, a matriarch who gave strength to and held the family together. Joe Biden should have his ass kicked for making fun of his own religion.
Religion is important to people. Without it, life would be too hard to bear. Hedonism, which is destroying our country, has become the religion of America.
You are the Emperor of Ice Cream. Hedonism and masturbation making us all blind. Look at the folks on ST. They can't see past their (imaginary) noses. Only you can fix this, sree. |
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Aug 6, 2022 18:20:22 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 18:20:22 GMT -5
Ha! I could probably make an argument for it, but it's largely beside the point. Ah okay. Well this may come as a shock to you, Mr empty boat, but not everything I write is exclusively for your benefit. I tend to have half a mind on the spartans. Anyway, I suggest you take what you can from my words and discard the rest. It's not possible to put a figure on it, but there's something to be said for not trying to run before we can walk. Although I can certainly understand the minds propensity to want to skip to the ending to see if the book is worth reading. You won't be able to employ someone to wipe your backside on this one though. Ya know why. Coz in many respects it's not about the destination it's about the journey.
I swear I read that somewhere. It would be good to talk to a living person. Talking to you guys is like talking to written books. I know you folks are well read and all that, but can you folks speak directly from the depth of nothingness? What do you want to know about it? |
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Aug 6, 2022 18:29:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 18:29:06 GMT -5
Ah, ok, thanks for 'splainin'. For context, my personal question to you was based on my apparent misreading of this: No, my ramble about Christianity wasn't to make any point about ethics or the relation to Judaism. Sometimes I enjoy a discursive digression into history or science, and I guess you might have missed the humor there that was at your expense.  I've been over it with you about your realization and how I find it to be contradictory to some of your interests and the way you express them.  Why didn't you point to the contradictions? Help me see them. Is spiritual inquiry not supposed to be this way: help each other get out of the existential trap? God can keep his Heaven, I prefer this world of Caesar. |
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Aug 6, 2022 18:46:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 18:46:02 GMT -5
Ending of the self, the selfless state, or dying before the body dies as Krishnamurti put it, is a state of bliss. This is my take on what can happen. It is not a testimony of direct experience on my part. The self is a state of awareness of the observer when the need to act brings forth the actor. When there is no need to act in response to needs of the body, the actor fades out, and there is just a state of awareness in which the self is not. What is the state of awareness like when the self ceases to exist? Krishnamurti asked this question in another way. "What is the nature of the mind of the man who has stepped out of the stream of sorrow?" Ultimately he is completely full of what is happening right now. headless.org/experiments/pointing.htm |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 19:12:57 GMT -5
I absolutely think it's possible and it sounds very much like what zd refers to as 'attending the actual minus thought'. He's talked about it quite extensively in the past. It's something to which I relate, a state that I have experienced. It's also akin to the being present I talked about, and it's a very peaceful state. The main issue I had with ATA-T is that the 'actual' part could be seen as over-concretising the world. So as negating the creative aspect of even the deepest aspects of the process of perception itself. I don't know if that makes any sense. Anyway, we are talking about a state of perception, but without the "process of conjuring ideas, concepts and imagery" you mention. So, certainly without that level of conscious thought- without that mental overlay, if you like. I agree thought is more of process than a discrete thing, but see it as generally happening at quite a surface level. It also tends to be quite recursive, which is how it is reinforced. I suppose where it could get contentious is when we start to talk about what level of 'sub-routines' might still be running in the background that make up the act of perception itself - that might still be described in terms of subtle thought movement. I.e whether there's some sort of depth of thought that makes up even basic recognition of the world at large. Cognition is the word you used, and I suppose the question becomes, to what extent could cognition be said to be comprised of thought. Personally, I say that ATA-T is not really compatible with your previous rat-race lifestyle. However, zd used to talk about thought as being entirely superfluous to everyday functioning and gave examples of folks being able to work in air traffic control without any level of thought going on. That's not something I resonate with so much. For me that would be more a case of flow, so something learned so thoroughly that it became a sort of body-knowledge and various functions can be performed on auto-pilot. Athletes are another good example of that. But I guess that body knowledge might be conceived of as still subtle thought processes playing out. You can probably relate to driving your car sometimes, slowing and stopping when necessary, but without really consciously thinking about it. If your mind is perhaps elsewhere or even relatively silent. So the question becomes, what level of thought could still be said to be running in such instances. I mean, obviously at some point one still had to learn to drive, right. Lastly, you mention " lose their clarity and reality takes on a dreamlike, surreal quality." In my experience ATA-T is in many ways the opposite of that. If anything, in such a state everything tends to become more vivid, and the sense of clarity is really quite palpable. Not dissimilar to kensho in that respect. Which could also be described as "the observer merging with the observed". Yet I can relate to the ephemerality of which you speak. I can also relate to why JK might refer to this as a no-time state. Timelessness is the substratum of experience, and the less content (i.e thought and associated), the more that shines through, so to speak. Time/space is the movement. Timelessness is the clarity and stillness. Think of it like this, at one end there is the consensus trance mundane experience, and the other is NS (undifferentiated awareness with no content). We're talking about striking a balance, here. I like the way you phrased that (sentence in bold above.) It speaks to me in a manner that could only come out from my own head. But you are mired in zen. Let's see if I can pull you out of that quicksand.
Cognition is thought itself. This is how I see it. I used reason to figure this out. I may be wrong. I am inquiring. You may question my reasoning, reject my perception of things and question that even. In this way, we can avoid shoving crap down each other's throat. We begin our exploration from ground zero. No acceptance of authority from me, you, Terry, Weber, Buddha, Krishnamurti, etc.
What is cognition? What is thought, and what is the relationship between these two things if they are related at all. I am in my garden now and I am looking at a maple tree. This foregoing statement describes a situation in which I, the observer, see place (where I am situated) and thing (maple tree). The thing exists at the moment of detection by the senses (touch, sight, smell, etc.). Cognition arises as the thing takes form based on remembered experiences drawn from the memory. Therefore, the cognition of the scene of the garden where I am looking at the maple tree is created by thought. This conclusion is rough and ready. Please feel free to take it apart as you see fit. Right. You've identified your position though there is no need to objectify the tree. Just breathe. Relax. Take your foot off of the thinking mind. Let it stop describing and inquiring.. it wants to. Just relax. Feel the tree through you legs. Feel it's roots through your feet. Straighten your back because this is what your body wants to do. Relax.. breathe. There is an exchange between you and the air surrounding you. Let your pores open to it. The tree has known you for a long time. There is an affinity in you for the tree and the space that it lives in. Don't be troubled by any external sounds. That's just life, swallow it down. Recognise how sharp the resistance that you've developed has become. It's hurting you, only. Drop it.. it's safe. Really. Be the Lamb that your Grandmother blessed.. just for a moment. Just enough to enrich your stability.. then let it go. There is a grown man sitting in your seat. We'd like to meet him. |
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Aug 6, 2022 19:17:01 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 19:17:01 GMT -5
No, my friend. Christianity and the teaching of Jesus are not the same thing. Christianity was invented by early Christians. It's the same confusion in Buddhism which was invented by the monks. Spirituality and superstition. I come to this forum to point out the difference. Ahh.. good to see you've found another purpose in your life. Bravo. What is the other purpose, abscissa? |
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Aug 6, 2022 19:26:09 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 19:26:09 GMT -5
I swear I read that somewhere. It would be good to talk to a living person. Talking to you guys is like talking to written books. I know you folks are well read and all that, but can you folks speak directly from the depth of nothingness? What do you want to know about it? Not about it. About you, abscissa. When you speak from the depth of nothingness, you and I disappear. No division. In that communion, there is learning, together.
Good lord! I am Krishnamurti.
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Aug 6, 2022 19:35:05 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 19:35:05 GMT -5
I like the way you phrased that (sentence in bold above.) It speaks to me in a manner that could only come out from my own head. But you are mired in zen. Let's see if I can pull you out of that quicksand.
Cognition is thought itself. This is how I see it. I used reason to figure this out. I may be wrong. I am inquiring. You may question my reasoning, reject my perception of things and question that even. In this way, we can avoid shoving crap down each other's throat. We begin our exploration from ground zero. No acceptance of authority from me, you, Terry, Weber, Buddha, Krishnamurti, etc.
What is cognition? What is thought, and what is the relationship between these two things if they are related at all. I am in my garden now and I am looking at a maple tree. This foregoing statement describes a situation in which I, the observer, see place (where I am situated) and thing (maple tree). The thing exists at the moment of detection by the senses (touch, sight, smell, etc.). Cognition arises as the thing takes form based on remembered experiences drawn from the memory. Therefore, the cognition of the scene of the garden where I am looking at the maple tree is created by thought. This conclusion is rough and ready. Please feel free to take it apart as you see fit. Right. You've identified your position though there is no need to objectify the tree. Just breathe. Relax. Take your foot off of the thinking mind. Let it stop describing and inquiring.. it wants to. Just relax. Feel the tree through you legs. Feel it's roots through your feet. Straighten your back because this is what your body wants to do. Relax.. breathe. There is an exchange between you and the air surrounding you. Let your pores open to it. The tree has known you for a long time. There is an affinity in you for the tree and the space that it lives in. Don't be troubled by any external sounds. That's just life, swallow it down. Recognise how sharp the resistance that you've developed has become. It's hurting you, only. Drop it.. it's safe. Really. Be the Lamb that your Grandmother blessed.. just for a moment. Just enough to enrich your stability.. then let it go. There is a grown man sitting in your seat. We'd like to meet him. OK, you want to take me into your "world of nothingness". I appreciate your graciousness and accept it.
You are taking Jesus into your life, abscissa.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:45:43 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 22:45:43 GMT -5
My grandma was a devout Catholic. She went to church everyday to attend morning mass and ate her wafer (body of Christ). She always carried her rosary in her hands; and whenever I visited her, she would hug and kiss me, and made the sign of the cross...using her thumb to touch my forehead, right shoulder, left shoulder, and my chest. My grandma was a wonderful woman, an excellent cook, a matriarch who gave strength to and held the family together. Joe Biden should have his ass kicked for making fun of his own religion.
Religion is important to people. Without it, life would be too hard to bear. Hedonism, which is destroying our country, has become the religion of America.
You are the Emperor of Ice Cream. Hedonism and masturbation making us all blind. Look at the folks on ST. They can't see past their (imaginary) noses. Only you can fix this, sree. What is ST? |
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Aug 6, 2022 23:08:54 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 23:08:54 GMT -5
You are the Emperor of Ice Cream. Hedonism and masturbation making us all blind. Look at the folks on ST. They can't see past their (imaginary) noses. Only you can fix this, sree. What is ST? it's short for the name of this forum (S)piritual (T)eachers. |
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Aug 6, 2022 23:18:00 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 23:18:00 GMT -5
Why didn't you point to the contradictions? Help me see them. Is spiritual inquiry not supposed to be this way: help each other get out of the existential trap? God can keep his Heaven, I prefer this world of Caesar. I am speaking in metaphors, abscissa.
"God", in this sense, represents the realm of spiritualism (i.e. escapism). Spirituality, to me, is about life in the here and now. It's Saturday night. Someone somewhere is getting shot and killed in America. I will know the tally on the news tomorrow.
I am the world, the existential trap: Maya. A friend is coming to dinner next Tuesday. He just sent me an email telling me that a bullet was just lodged in a picture on the wall of a 4th floor apartment in his building. He lives on the 6th floor. This guy is making $200,000 a year. Why is Nancy not making our world safe? What the hell is she doing messing with Taiwan?
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Aug 6, 2022 23:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 23:19:12 GMT -5
Chritianity and Islam both are offshoot of Judaism. God of Jesus is God of Abraham and likewise God of Muhamad Nabi is the God of Abraham. Their way of salvation is different. No, my friend. Christianity and the teaching of Jesus are not the same thing. Christianity was invented by early Christians. It's the same confusion in Buddhism which was invented by the monks. Spirituality and superstition. I come to this forum to point out the difference.
Where else can you know what Jesus taught? How do you know early writing differ from Jesus teaching? Paul finished his writing on 52 AD. Jesus died on 30 AD. Paul met Jesus brother in person Gal1:19. |
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Aug 6, 2022 23:39:01 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 6, 2022 23:39:01 GMT -5
No, my friend. Christianity and the teaching of Jesus are not the same thing. Christianity was invented by early Christians. It's the same confusion in Buddhism which was invented by the monks. Spirituality and superstition. I come to this forum to point out the difference.
Where else can you know what Jesus taught? How do you know early writing differ from Jesus teaching? Paul finished his writing on 52 AD. Jesus died on 30 AD. Paul met Jesus brother in person Gal1:19. Come on, man. I don't care who taught what. Just focus on the teaching. What does it say? If it makes sense, I will take it even if it came from your dog bow wowing it out last night.
The Sermon on the Mount is in English. It must have been translated from Greek. Apparently, the language - at the time those words were supposedly spoken - was lost. Why attach importance to who said what? |
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Aug 7, 2022 0:09:23 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2022 0:09:23 GMT -5
Where else can you know what Jesus taught? How do you know early writing differ from Jesus teaching? Paul finished his writing on 52 AD. Jesus died on 30 AD. Paul met Jesus brother in person Gal1:19. Come on, man. I don't care who taught what. Just focus on the teaching. What does it say? If it makes sense, I will take it even if it came from your dog bow wowing it out last night.
The Sermon on the Mount is in English. It must have been translated from Greek. Apparently, the language - at the time those words were supposedly spoken - was lost. Why attach importance to who said what? The language they have spoken is Aramaic not Greek. It was written in Koine Greek because the alexander the great has colonized that area 300 years ago of Jesus advent. So to evangelize the gospel, they had to write in Greek. Who teach what? You don't know, yes? Then you should not be claiming that you know the teaching is lost. Rather you should say you don't know. Teachings are not lost but altered when the days was passed by. 70 AD matthew and like were written and little diviation from what Paul has written and then at 120 AD John was written and once again little diviation. Likewise it goes on. |
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