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Post by lolly on Sept 7, 2022 2:17:37 GMT -5
If suffering is the primary driver, then suffering will be the filter through which everything is interpreted. Fortunately, it's possible to find the truth as a result of simple curiosity. And some lucky people find the truth without being driven by either suffering or curiosity. Paul Morgan-Somers is one example--no questioning, no suffering, no curiosity, just.....BAM! Right out of the blue, and that doesn't fit any model of how such a thing might happen. I don't know his story, but that example does illustrate that suffering isn't the driving force behind a transformative event or realization. I'm still inclined to think that 'existential questioning and exploring' is underpinned by suffering, but I also don't want to diminish the role of curiosity in that, and I also don't doubt that this curiosity can be the conscious driving force (as it sounds like it was with you). I think we jumped context because the meaning of Dukkha isn't exactly what we define as suffering. If the person is pursuing a soccer pro card, in the Buddhist philosophical context, that is definitively suffering because the pro card (or anything else related to sense/experience) cannot be satisfactory. Indeed, all willful pursuit is impelled by Dukkha in Buddhist philosophy because all will is incited by 'craving', and craving is the cause of suffering. If we leave the Buddhist philosophical context, the words change meaning according to a different set of premises and the thesis becomes untrue.
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Post by lolly on Sept 7, 2022 2:20:06 GMT -5
FWIW, in the videos I've seen of Morgan-Somers, he never says anything about any kind of suffering prior to being inundated by "the ocean", to use his words. In fact, he claims that he was a happy teenager looking forward to playing professional soccer. Maybe the Buddhist religion's emphasis upon suffering causes some believers to filter everything through that concept. That's okay, but it's certainly not necessary, and there are lots of people who have awakened who were not driven by suffering. I suspect that the consensus on this forum by people who have found the truth is that there are many different pathways to the truth. ignorance therefore suffering. That's the whole of Buddhism
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Post by lolly on Sept 7, 2022 2:38:00 GMT -5
I am compelled to say something, but stray off in an attempt to understand the source of the compulsion. Still noone has answered my question: does Jim Henson or Kermit kiss Miss Piggy? The answer to which is paramount in all THIS, maybe. Rule 34
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:24:26 GMT -5
You certainly implied otherwise by writing that "getting past the small self is hard". I'm not going to argue with you about what you think you meant, but no, "getting past the small self" only seems hard to someone who hasn't yet. And not even every someone btw. Afterwards, the issue becomes quite clear, and noone absent the boatman would ever say that "getting rid of the boatman is hard". Only a pilfering mall cop would say such a thing. I've had one view for 45 years. But yes I've been a sorry student. I wouldn't post here in disagreement with that > view<. Attention and/or awareness is the way. No thinking, feelings/emotions, bodily actions or sensations, that is, no doing (which actually aren't doing, these merely happen) by the "boatman" leads anywhere.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:52:02 GMT -5
Correct. Some people do alcohol, drugs, even very nasty drugs...there are a whole host of means of escaping. I want some of those (** shakes head sadly **)
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:53:18 GMT -5
According to what Buddha told his disciples, he had one experience that resulted in liberation and freedom. He supposedly told them that after meditating for a certain period of time, he looked up into the morning sky from where he sat and saw the planet Venus. This sensory event triggered realization, and that's a classic kensho event. What's unusual is that the Buddha apparently attained freedom, realization, and permanent liberation as a result of that one event. Most people who have such things happen do not. Nevertheless, I'll drop this issue because you obviously have a deep attachment to the idea that liberation can only happen in one way. Having read hundreds of spiritual biographies and autobiographies of sages, it's clear to me that each human's path to realization is quite unique. Heh. It's weird I never heard that story PBS included it in a documentary a few years back so it has to be true.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:56:49 GMT -5
I don't know his story, but that example does illustrate that suffering isn't the driving force behind a transformative event or realization. I'm still inclined to think that 'existential questioning and exploring' is underpinned by suffering, but I also don't want to diminish the role of curiosity in that, and I also don't doubt that this curiosity can be the conscious driving force (as it sounds like it was with you). I think we jumped context because the meaning of Dukkha isn't exactly what we define as suffering. If the person is pursuing a soccer pro card, in the Buddhist philosophical context, that is definitively suffering because the pro card (or anything else related to sense/experience) cannot be satisfactory. Indeed, all willful pursuit is impelled by Dukkha in Buddhist philosophy because all will is incited by 'craving', and craving is the cause of suffering. If we leave the Buddhist philosophical context, the words change meaning according to a different set of premises and the thesis becomes untrue. It's quite possible to come to a very deeply embodied realization as to how chasing a high - any high - can never result in permanent satisfaction. It's possible to come to this point by having pursued, and even attained that satisfaction temporarily. No philosophy or spiritual practice required. And then there are those who really do get what they want and are happy with it. People are funny creatures, after all.
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Post by laughter on Sept 7, 2022 5:58:31 GMT -5
I am compelled to say something, but stray off in an attempt to understand the source of the compulsion. Still noone has answered my question: does Jim Henson or Kermit kiss Miss Piggy? The answer to which is paramount in all THIS, maybe. Rule 34
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2022 7:05:36 GMT -5
Heh. It's weird I never heard that story PBS included it in a documentary a few years back so it has to be true. That story is also included in at least two books about the life of the Buddha, but it's been more than 30 years since I read them, and I no longer keep those books in my library. Someone interested in the details can probably find them with a bit of searching.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2022 7:19:37 GMT -5
In the Zen tradition there isn't much discussion of the eightfold path, and intellectualization and attachment to ideas is eschewed. The primary teaching is that what's important is discovering what the Buddha discovered, so people are told how to meditate, and encouraged to pursue that path until realizations occur. There are countless stories of what happened to various people who followed that advice, and kensho events commonly result after periods of deep samadhi. I think that the Buddha reported that his realization occurred after looking at the planet Venus rising in the morning sky. One monk woke up after hearing a pebble strike a bamboo fence. Another guy woke up after smelling peach blossoms. Hakuin said that his deepest existential insight occurred upon hearing the sound of falling snow. Without a reference for what the word "kensho" points to, I can understand why people have no comprehension of it. FWIW, meditation is not a kensho event. A kensho event occurs suddenly, by grace, and if it's deep, reality disintegrates, one comes face to face with Source, and various existential questions are instantly resolved. Whether people believe this or not is not my concern. I find that hard to believe. I'm familiar with events being sudden. That's a thing... and also source aka true nature happens suddenly.
I was involved with a Korean Rinzai Zen tradition for about 14 years (between 1984 and 1998), visited Zen monasteries in both Japan and China, met numerous teachers in both the Rinzai and Soto traditions, became a dharma teacher, and heard numerous dharma talks, and I don't remember once hearing the eightfold path mentioned or any of the conventional Buddhist ideas that are included in books about Buddhism. Zen people honor the Buddha, but their main interest is in meditation and replicating the Buddha's enlightenment. They have almost no interest in the traditional teachings that other Buddhist groups espouse.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2022 7:35:17 GMT -5
I don't know his story, but that example does illustrate that suffering isn't the driving force behind a transformative event or realization. I'm still inclined to think that 'existential questioning and exploring' is underpinned by suffering, but I also don't want to diminish the role of curiosity in that, and I also don't doubt that this curiosity can be the conscious driving force (as it sounds like it was with you). I think we jumped context because the meaning of Dukkha isn't exactly what we define as suffering. If the person is pursuing a soccer pro card, in the Buddhist philosophical context, that is definitively suffering because the pro card (or anything else related to sense/experience) cannot be satisfactory. Indeed, all willful pursuit is impelled by Dukkha in Buddhist philosophy because all will is incited by 'craving', and craving is the cause of suffering. If we leave the Buddhist philosophical context, the words change meaning according to a different set of premises and the thesis becomes untrue. It might be worth noting that although suffering is a central concept in traditional Buddhism, it isn't given the same importance in Advaita Vedanta. Suffering may drive a lot of people to pursue ND, but curiosity, alone, can also be a major driver, and I suspect that if curiosity-driven people were asked about suffering, very few of them would equate suffering with existential curiosity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 7:38:08 GMT -5
I think we jumped context because the meaning of Dukkha isn't exactly what we define as suffering. If the person is pursuing a soccer pro card, in the Buddhist philosophical context, that is definitively suffering because the pro card (or anything else related to sense/experience) cannot be satisfactory. Indeed, all willful pursuit is impelled by Dukkha in Buddhist philosophy because all will is incited by 'craving', and craving is the cause of suffering. If we leave the Buddhist philosophical context, the words change meaning according to a different set of premises and the thesis becomes untrue. It might be worth noting that although suffering is a central concept in traditional Buddhism, it isn't given the same importance in Advaita Vedanta. Suffering may drive a lot of people to pursue ND, but curiosity, alone, can also be a major driver, and I suspect that if curiosity-driven people were asked about suffering, very few of them would equate suffering with existential curiosity. Suffering people tries to fix the problem inside the story so not all of them who suffer are triggered to know WHO THEY REALLY ARE!
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2022 8:33:51 GMT -5
It might be worth noting that although suffering is a central concept in traditional Buddhism, it isn't given the same importance in Advaita Vedanta. Suffering may drive a lot of people to pursue ND, but curiosity, alone, can also be a major driver, and I suspect that if curiosity-driven people were asked about suffering, very few of them would equate suffering with existential curiosity. Suffering people tries to fix the problem inside the story so not all of them who suffer are triggered to know WHO THEY REALLY ARE! That's for sure!
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Post by lolly on Sept 7, 2022 9:01:32 GMT -5
I find that hard to believe. I'm familiar with events being sudden. That's a thing... and also source aka true nature happens suddenly.
I was involved with a Korean Rinzai Zen tradition for about 14 years (between 1984 and 1998), visited Zen monasteries in both Japan and China, met numerous teachers in both the Rinzai and Soto traditions, became a dharma teacher, and heard numerous dharma talks, and I don't remember once hearing the eightfold path mentioned or any of the conventional Buddhist ideas that are included in books about Buddhism. Zen people honor the Buddha, but their main interest is in meditation and replicating the Buddha's enlightenment. They have almost no interest in the traditional teachings that other Buddhist groups espouse. hard to imagine cuz the eight-path is central to Buddhist philosophy...
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Post by zendancer on Sept 7, 2022 10:21:37 GMT -5
I was involved with a Korean Rinzai Zen tradition for about 14 years (between 1984 and 1998), visited Zen monasteries in both Japan and China, met numerous teachers in both the Rinzai and Soto traditions, became a dharma teacher, and heard numerous dharma talks, and I don't remember once hearing the eightfold path mentioned or any of the conventional Buddhist ideas that are included in books about Buddhism. Zen people honor the Buddha, but their main interest is in meditation and replicating the Buddha's enlightenment. They have almost no interest in the traditional teachings that other Buddhist groups espouse. hard to imagine cuz the eight-path is central to Buddhist philosophy... True, but Zen has no interest in philosophy or conventional teachings. Zen has more in common with Advaita Vedanta, mystical Sufism, and other mystical traditions than it does with traditional Buddhism. Zen takes the attitude of "Get enlightened and then there won't be any need for ideation about how to respond to life events or the world in general." In the absence of ideation everything is direct and unmediated by images, ideas, or symbols.
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