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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 22:01:31 GMT -5
You haven't considered the alternative that it was the crucifers who were distasteful? To be fair, Jesus poked them very hard, he was on a schedule, he needed to be crucified Friday. He was waiting for Passover to die. It was a Cosmic living drama. you have to resort to drastic means if you want to wash away the sins of the world.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 22:44:06 GMT -5
Jesus was distasteful also; otherwise, they would not have crucified him. I don't agree with you and satch who nailed him 2000 years ago. You haven't considered the alternative that it was the crucifers who were distasteful? The crucifiers were the moderators who decided that Jesus strayed off the topic of spirituality. Moderators are never distasteful. Jesus was stubborn. Like me. I won't feed your beggars.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 22:47:38 GMT -5
You haven't considered the alternative that it was the crucifers who were distasteful? The crucifiers were the moderators who decided that Jesus strayed off the topic of spirituality. Moderators are never distasteful. Jesus was stubborn. Like me. I won't feed your beggars.
Then I hope you don't become one yourself. Not caring one way or the other about beggars could be construed as biting the hand that feeds you since much of what you have is dependent on Chinese sweatshops. I hear the job security in those places isn't that good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 3:16:24 GMT -5
Jesus was distasteful also; otherwise, they would not have crucified him. I don't agree with you and satch who nailed him 2000 years ago. You haven't considered the alternative that it was the crucifers who were distasteful? I heard of many people who do not accept Jesus but the very first time I am hearing from someone who seems to be supporting crucifers.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 7:53:23 GMT -5
Yes, that's correct. Then the theologians have to invent epicycles so as not to send a baby that dies, to hell, like Augustine did. He said unbaptized babies that happen to die, go to hell. So theologians invented the age of accountability. If a child happens to die before the age of accountability, they get a pass, get a free ticket to heaven. My point is that ministers get this stuff taught in seminary, and most of them beat their congregation over the head with it. Baptists do anyway, Southern Baptists. Seems to me some people live their lives expecting, or even demanding answers to unanswerable questions. Some want guidance and clear rules and instructions as to how to live. I don't know enough to know how prevalent that is, and I'll refrain from my naturally cynical impulse in response to the notion. Christianity, in the forms of the institutions that propagate it, represents a state of social progression, or evolution, from the belief systems that people had before. Those beliefs were formed by a very different way of life from the late-stage agricultural revolution that is the context of Christianity. So maybe some of those beliefs are better or worse than Christian beliefs, it's situational. If you want a particular example of how the idea of the "evolution of Consciousness" is inherently flawed, there you go. This has absolutely zero to do with the evolution of consciousness. The evolution of consciousness is not about institutions or social progression. A higher state of consciousness can't be seen, doesn't even exist on the face of the Earth. > This< is something about the evolution of consciousness. So you have failed to get even a glimpse of things I've written about. We almost can't see beyond what we are, what we think we are, it doesn't even register. The cultural self filters out what does not correspond to itself. We see what we are. The cultural self can only see what corresponds to its own point of view.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 8:56:08 GMT -5
You're beating up sree when has been most vulnerable? Beating up people is not the answer. Oh, boo hoo poor little defenseless sree. You think ginning up some fake victim-drama is the " answer", then? I'm just saying laughter can't help being laughter. sree can't help being sree. You have no idea what you are like, really. Today may be a first, two birds, one stone. It's not so easy to see oneself. Can the eye see itself? No, not directly. I'm going to use sree as an example. Almost from the moment he arrived we could all see something amiss. Most people hung in there, we wanted to see if he had something. We started pointing things out. He rejected everything. Then, after many weeks, he became vulnerable, open. Then he threw up the barriers again. Like sree does not see himself, or is not honest about it, laughter doesn't see what he is like, how he treats people. sree was not quite a "Roy", almost. It was not easy for sree to say, I don't know. He finally said it concerning some things he posted. That's huge. laughter can't help being laughter. The second step is for laughter to see laughter. See objectively, impartially, for laughter to see laughter the way laughter sees sree, the way sree doesn't see sree. sree is trying, several posts he says, I don't know, tell me, I'm here, I want to know. That's the first step, to admit to oneself one doesn't know. Does laughter like what he is? Of course. So sree is much more along the way than laughter. laughter is very happy and content being laughter. Second bird, one > stone<. This is why it's difficult for sdp to dialogue with the ND view, there is a possibility of being two. That which is seen, that which sees, personality, the "boatman", and essence, the real self. Attention and awareness is the Way. Now, maybe for once, try not to read this from your own perspective. Only by saying, I don't know, can we move into the unknown.
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Post by sree on Aug 23, 2022 11:46:39 GMT -5
I don't see the human being as an organism. Consciousness is what we are: all one, for better or for worse, and never do we part. That's not consciousness. There is no better or worse concerning consciousness. You obviously see consciousness as a volitional entity. You are conflating it with the personal. No, I don't. The boatman is me when volition arises. The boatman, driven by the winds of thought, does this or that with a sense of purpose, compassion, and goodwill. Consciousness is a state of awareness. Nothing more.
Volition is an act of will. It is the urge to give to the beggar or to sleep with your neighbor's wife.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 13:21:38 GMT -5
That's not consciousness. There is no better or worse concerning consciousness. You obviously see consciousness as a volitional entity. You are conflating it with the personal. No, I don't. The boatman is me when (seemingly) volition arises. The boatman, driven by the winds of thought, does this or that with a sense of purpose, compassion, and goodwill. Consciousness is a state of awareness. Nothing more.
"Volition" is an act of will automatic response. It is the urge to give to the beggar or to sleep with your neighbor's wife. sdp almost likes. Fixed, to not like " ".
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Post by sree on Aug 23, 2022 13:52:16 GMT -5
No, I don't. The boatman is me when (seemingly) volition arises. The boatman, driven by the winds of thought, does this or that with a sense of purpose, compassion, and goodwill. Consciousness is a state of awareness. Nothing more.
"Volition" is an act of will automatic response. It is the urge to give to the beggar or to sleep with your neighbor's wife. sdp almost likes. Fixed, to not like " ". Why automatic? I act with intent.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 14:10:53 GMT -5
sdp almost likes. Fixed, to not like " ". Why automatic? I act with intent. From where does the intent come?
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Post by sree on Aug 23, 2022 14:23:19 GMT -5
Why automatic? I act with intent. From where does the intent come? Where does the sky come from? Everything comes from the Consciousness. It is what we are. Consciousness cannot be known. I am not proclaiming this as a truth.
I don't mean to imply that not knowing is a cop out. I think this urge to find out is a distraction from "what is" (Krishnamurti). What is, is this goddam mess of an existence that needs attention.
You never shared why you wanted to kill yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 15:08:15 GMT -5
sdp almost likes. Fixed, to not like " ". Why automatic? I act with intent. I never think about what to say. I just shoot from the hip.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 16:00:12 GMT -5
From where does the intent come? Where does the sky come from? Everything comes from the Consciousness. It is what we are. Consciousness cannot be known. I am not proclaiming this as a truth.
I don't mean to imply that not knowing is a cop out. I think this urge to find out is a distraction from "what is" (Krishnamurti). What is, is this goddam mess of an existence that needs attention.
You never shared why you wanted to kill yourself.
Yes I did. I said I hated myself. I wanted not-to-be anymore. laughter used the words existential dread. I like to put it, angst. Angst is a nagging pain that's always in the background. The angst got worse. It's a psychological pain that is worse than physical pain. I've had unbearable pain 3 times in my life (apart from broken bones and torn stuff that has to obviously be repaired) where I had to go to the hospital to get problem fixed. One was a sinus infection. One was an infected ingrown toenail. The 3rd, just slightly less painful, a kidney stone. The psychological pain is unending, you think it will never end. The psychological pain is worse than physical pain. The only way out seems to be suicide. I know why people kill themselves. The psychological became mixed with depression. Depression begins to distort the thinking. But I knew my thinking was distorted, so I figured suicide wasn't a good idea. There is no return from suicide. The two very bad periods didn't last long, a couple of days. I knew I was broken. I felt boxed in, felt there was no way out. But ATST I knew there was a way out. But some people just give up. Oh, and I knew it was 100% or not at all. I considered 100% effective ways. .......Curious, my oldest daughter had two of her very best friends commit suicide, a past boyfriend, drugs, and her BFF friend, a young lady. She had mental problems off and on for years. She researched. She took tranquilizers and put a plastic bag over her head, sealed it. She had stayed with her Mother, her Mother found her. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Intent comes from the boatman. How does the boatman arise? The boatman forms from mostly the first six years of life, from data collected. It's the imprinting you saw, the golfer and the golfer's son. It's recordings upon recordings upon recordings, everything you experience as a young child, it's stored in the neural structure. There are thousands and thousands of neural connections, recordings. The boatman consists of these recordings. We appear very alive and appear to be acting in the moment, but the boatman merely reacts to events and to people, the appropriate recording is pulled up. Events and people pull up different recordings. So the boatman is a reactor, not an actor. You know the term, knee-jerk reactions. You know the term, pushing one's buttons. From something you said I think maybe you have read Carlos Castaneda, his Don Juan Matus. Don Juan had a term, stopping the world. I passed on the first two books, they seemed to be only about taking natural plant-drugs, I wasn't interested. But I got the 3rd, Journey To Ixtlan, in 1974, through a book club, probably forgot to not-order. I actually lived on West Serendipity then, Colorado Springs, Colorado. So it was serendipity. I got Don Juan. Stopping the world means to break the chain of automatic associations, to break the automaticity. Don Juan also talks about not-doing. And he talks about losing self importance. He also talks a lot about personal power. It took me a long time to understand that. But he means by personal power, energy, accumulating energy. But basically Don Juan was teaching Carlos how to cease functioning through the "boatman" and to begin to function through one's true self. If you have not read Castaneda, get Journey to Ixtlan ASAP. You will understand it. I read what was published, went back to the first two, and then read them all as they came out. Except, I don't think I ever made it through The Wheel of Time, I don't remember why. So we don't know how self was formed, we were too young to know what was happening. We are born as our true self. But true self is like visiting another planet. So we have to develop a cultural self, a boatman, as a means to interact with the world. But about the age of six we have a reversal, we cease living through our true self and come to believe we are the boatman. Most people never have a shift back to living through the true self. The psychologist Karen Horney is good on this also, Neurosis and Human Growth. Winnicott is pretty good also, but I don't know of one particular book for him. Here is a > link<. Maybe Playing and Reality. The greatest psychologist I've come > across< is Robert Assagioli. I read his book Psychosynthesis about 1991. Most excellent. He uses spirituality as a basis for treating people with psychological problems.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 23, 2022 16:13:11 GMT -5
Why automatic? I act with intent. I never think about what to say. I just shoot from the hip. It can be both. But I think abscissa is the Master of pointing out contradictions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2022 16:31:18 GMT -5
It can be both. But I think abscissa is the Master of pointing out contradictions. Ohh, you give me too much credit Pilgrim. I'm just an Amateur at it really.
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