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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 16:58:46 GMT -5
He's correct, in the Buddhist sense of emptiness, dependent origination. All things link together and have multiple causes. Emptiness means nothing exists in and of itself, nothing. But I don't think he meant that. I don't really know what I meant. I can only probe within just so far. Like a fisherman, sometimes I get a fish, sometimes even an old shoe.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 16:59:46 GMT -5
It's just the way the cultural self is formed. The baby and the small child stores the data in their neural structure, connections between nerves, learned from their parents and caregivers. But sree is exactly correct. I don't see the human being as an organism. Consciousness is what we are: all one, for better or for worse, and never do we part. Seems to me the kid had split off from his dad the way an amoebic cell reproduces by splitting itself into two amoebas.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 17:00:14 GMT -5
He's correct, in the Buddhist sense of emptiness, dependent origination. All things link together and have multiple causes. Emptiness means nothing exists in and of itself, nothing. But I don't think he meant that. I don't really know what I meant. I can only probe within just so far. Like a fisherman, sometimes I get a fish, sometimes even an old shoe. Thank you.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 17:03:40 GMT -5
Do you really understand? The age of accountability is 18 here in the US. By that age, most are able to and some do break all the Commandments. Even the Supreme Court would find them guilty as charged. I understand that you're talking about something else, yes. I like to keep our feet on the ground.
When I had a dog, after chatting for a while with spirits like you, I would stop and hold his head in both my hands and look into his eyes. It stopped me from floating off and brought me back to reality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 17:05:28 GMT -5
I understand that you're talking about something else, yes. I like to keep our feet on the ground.
When I had a dog, after chatting for a while with spirits like you, I would stop and hold his head in both my hands and look into his eyes. It stopped me from floating off and brought me back to reality.
Gravity is there when you need it. See.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 17:09:09 GMT -5
I don't expect you to read > this<, but scroll down to the Introduction. Read the first 2 & 1/2 paragraphs. The key words are the total depravity of man, and permeates the whole world. Those exist in a very real way as Jung's collective unconscious in western society. Some men emphasize the goodness of the Bible and exercise it in their lives, even Jefferson, who cut out the parts of the NT he thought didn't belong (Jefferson was undoubtedly on the autistic spectrum, undoubtedly had Asperger's Syndrome, the political correctness people have eliminated that name, stupid). William James is an absolute genius. Most people don't know that he wrote from his own perspective, his own (hidden) experiences. Emerson was a genius, Locke was a genius. Lincoln saved the US, without him we would be 2 countries. But still, on the whole, the idea of man's depravity permeates western society. I will send you a copy of my book when it comes out. I read your pdf article.
Consider this statement: "...sin is not merely accidental or contingent, but is a corruption of human nature because of the positive propensity of the will towards evil". Is this corruption of human nature a peculiarity of western society?
Western Christianity. But I'm saying the tentacles creep everywhere into society. A child raised in the church gets this. The more liberal the denomination the less the crazy indoctrination. My (former) wife was a church musician, sometimes organist, sometimes pianist. Two churches she worked at, and we this attended, were United Methodist. They are no so nutty on the original sin preaching. There is suffering everywhere. Religions try to explain the why of the suffering. But I think no other religion says that babies are born separated from God. So children are allowed to be children. Parents, of other cultures, don't think they have to get their child saved.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 17:15:50 GMT -5
He's correct, in the Buddhist sense of emptiness, dependent origination. All things link together and have multiple causes. Emptiness means nothing exists in and of itself, nothing. But I don't think he meant that. He's correct, but you don't think he meant that? Can we get some clarity around here please? Even a broken clock has the correct time twice a day.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 17:17:28 GMT -5
He's correct, in the Buddhist sense of emptiness, dependent origination. All things link together and have multiple causes. Emptiness means nothing exists in and of itself, nothing. But I don't think he meant that. I don't really know what I meant. I can only probe within just so far. Like a fisherman, sometimes I get a fish, sometimes even an old shoe. But the whole point is, you saw the truth. You saw the truth in the golfer and the son.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 17:19:17 GMT -5
I don't see the human being as an organism. Consciousness is what we are: all one, for better or for worse, and never do we part. Seems to me the kid had split off from his dad the way an amoebic cell reproduces by splitting itself into two amoebas.
Metaphor.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 17:27:08 GMT -5
Quite curious, on Ari Melber's program today, The Beat, 6:00PM eastern time, he's been talking about sin and the film The Devil's Advocate. The writer of the book the film is based on is on next.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 17:33:24 GMT -5
I read your pdf article.
Consider this statement: "...sin is not merely accidental or contingent, but is a corruption of human nature because of the positive propensity of the will towards evil". Is this corruption of human nature a peculiarity of western society?
Western Christianity. But I'm saying the tentacles creep everywhere into society. A child raised in the church gets this. The more liberal the denomination the less the crazy indoctrination. My (former) wife was a church musician, sometimes organist, sometimes pianist. Two churches she worked at, and we this attended, were United Methodist. They are no so nutty on the original sin preaching. There is suffering everywhere. Religions try to explain the why of the suffering. But I think no other religion says that babies are born separated from God. So children are allowed to be children. Parents, of other cultures, don't think they have to get their child saved. I understand your objection to the way some folks' attitude are with regard to "original sin". From my experience, Asian Christians (here in the US as well as in Asia) can be just as crazed also.
Parents in western societies are pretty "normal" people, in my view, and generally are more into this world than the next. The general population is in the grip of the government rather than the church.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 17:37:21 GMT -5
I don't really know what I meant. I can only probe within just so far. Like a fisherman, sometimes I get a fish, sometimes even an old shoe. But the whole point is, you saw the truth. You saw the truth in the golfer and the son. You just scared me off about being a cocksure fundamentalist. Let's say I saw the golfer and his son the same way I would see a mother hen and her chicks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 18:35:32 GMT -5
Doing the right thing IS spontaneous but then again so is losing one's temper. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that when we do good things we feel good even if we are doing it for no reward. We are certainly not suffering by giving a homeless person money or a hot meal. Loving kindness meditation is a spiritual practice in Buddhism. Karma yoga is a specific path of yoga which is doing service towards others without seeking a reward. Ramana Maharishi said when you do work just give it to God, not for yourself. Karma yoga compliments the other yogas of bhakti and Jnana. In the eight limbs of Patanjali's ashtanga yoga there are the ethical and moral standards of the yamas and niyamas. I reiterate, on a behavioral level these practices are Self (ish). It benefits the mind to do these good acts and kind actions thereby better preparing a calmer and happier mind for the deeper discovery of true nature. There is method and reason behind this. Of course we have to recognize the noble desires of selfishness like helping others and the desire for liberation rather than those selfish desires which have negative results. But both good and bad actions and intentions are motivated by benefiting ones own self. I think this is fairly obvious. We act to benefit ourselves in some way, either consciously or unconsciously. What is that other than selfishness? Well, no, we're not agreeing, not really. Ramana's advice is good, and far be it from me to criticize an entire school of yoga. But you're still playing a word game, people's emotions are complicated and so generalizations will always fail. If you insist on abstraction, the underlying notion is one of free will. There's nothing abstract about saying that we do things to feel satisfied and fulfilled. It's basic human nature.
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Post by laughter on Aug 22, 2022 19:33:31 GMT -5
Well, no, we're not agreeing, not really. Ramana's advice is good, and far be it from me to criticize an entire school of yoga. But you're still playing a word game, people's emotions are complicated and so generalizations will always fail. If you insist on abstraction, the underlying notion is one of free will. There's nothing abstract about saying that we do things to feel satisfied and fulfilled. It's basic human nature. First of all, yes it is abstract. Also, it's an opinion, one with a compelling opposite opinion.
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Post by laughter on Aug 22, 2022 19:34:27 GMT -5
I mean Christ in the nondual sense that is hidden in plain view of the sacraments: all are the body of Christ, only one Jesus though. The philosopher's fist step is to objectify Christ. In secular terms, the phenomenal, objective Universe. There's a hierarchy of composition: the baby is a part of humanity, humanity is a part of the Universe. The Christian philosopher's draw their dualistic line between God and man. So they connect innocence to original sin by the composition of the baby with humanity, but they have God shaking his head sadly at Eve in the orchard. It's really quite hilarious, but the humor of course has it's dark edges around it in terms of the 'pilgrims collective subconscious and the dynamic of shame, not to mention the underlying theme of misogyny. Lol.. it's all gone a bit dark in here. .. ok strike everything but the first sentence. The rest was just pandering.
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