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Post by laughter on Jul 25, 2021 6:19:14 GMT -5
Great comments sifty .. thoughtful, deep, with a deliberate feel to them. I have to opine though, t hat it seems to me quite common that someone might inquire as to the nature of "I" and find it anything but elusive. In Zen the seeker has to see the bulls tail, and Christians have to open themselves to God's love. I'd guess an effective initial inquiry is, for many, a major shift in perspective. Thanks! And, well, it's interesting. There's two ways in which the above might be true, and both speak to your point. One way is what I'd call the relative -- but still crucial -- understanding of the I as the individual waking witness. For some people, simply seeing this to be the case is already a big deal, and there's a recognition even there that even as the storm of life events happens, something, namely that witness, remains unruffled. The recognition and falling back upon this relatively-continuous witness can already produce a powerful peace, at least for a while, in many people. And there is a second way, which is what I think you are really alluding to... which is a glimpse of Truth. And absolutely, that sighting of the bull's tail can certainly effect a profound a shift in perspective, and is usually a necessary (if not always sufficient) motivation to take the spiritual search seriously... One taste of that honey can drive a person mad with longing for more   |
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Post by laughter on Jul 25, 2021 6:37:04 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Eight9. THE DUALITY OF SUBJECT AND OBJECT AND TRINITY OF SEER, SIGHT, AND SEEN CAN EXIST ONLY IF SUPPORTED BY THE ONE. IF ONE TURNS INWARD IN SEARCH OF THAT ONE REALITY THEY FALL AWAY. THOSE WHO SEE THIS ARE THOSE WHO SEE WISDOM. THEY ARE NEVER IN DOUBT. Commentary: Experiencing the outside world, thoughts, feelings, or anything at all always happens by a division between the seer, the seen, and the actual act of seeing. This trio, which comes and goes, and which has no life of its own, can only exist if supported by something which does not come and go, and which is fundamentally aware and alive, though in a profoundly different way in which we might normally understand those terms. The One seems to cover itself up with thought and then it becomes these three instruments. But in fact these instruments are changing, transient, and therefore impermanent. They depend on not noticing the One that supports them. If that One is seen, it’s like a magician whose trick is seen through, or the cartoon coyote who, having walked over a cliff and gone 100 steps, suddenly looks down and falls. Instantly the suspension of disbelief is gone. Again, this is because the seeing and the seen depend on there being a boundary between the me (the seer) and not-me. If there was no boundary, or distance, between me and something else, I could never say I saw it. But the me that this depends on is itself an ‘in here,’ me, small, atomic, indivisible — the ego. It assumes to itself the glory of the light of the One which it merely reflects. Like a candle next to the Sun, as soon as we see the Sun, the candle becomes invisible. Once the me cannot stand, the not-me (the seen and the act of seeing) cannot stand either. They exist only if the seer exists. So if we turn attention inward away from the changing objects looking for the One, the usual trio of division falls away. Those who see and understand this are the ones who are truly realized. They are never in doubt, because the mind is the instrument of doubt, and that instrument is only credited if the One is not seen. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. Seems to me some great potential advice to anyone serious about pursuing the existential truth. As to that absence of doubt .. heh heh. A common objection on this forum over the years is "but if you're so sure about what you discovered that you've stopped seeking, then how can you know what you might still have yet to find?". Ironically enough, one of the most effective pointing I've seen in response to this is: "I know nothing, haven't discovered anything, and have lost everything".  |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 25, 2021 14:10:26 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Eight9. THE DUALITY OF SUBJECT AND OBJECT AND TRINITY OF SEER, SIGHT, AND SEEN CAN EXIST ONLY IF SUPPORTED BY THE ONE. IF ONE TURNS INWARD IN SEARCH OF THAT ONE REALITY THEY FALL AWAY. THOSE WHO SEE THIS ARE THOSE WHO SEE WISDOM. THEY ARE NEVER IN DOUBT. Commentary: Experiencing the outside world, thoughts, feelings, or anything at all always happens by a division between the seer, the seen, and the actual act of seeing. This trio, which comes and goes, and which has no life of its own, can only exist if supported by something which does not come and go, and which is fundamentally aware and alive, though in a profoundly different way in which we might normally understand those terms. The One seems to cover itself up with thought and then it becomes these three instruments. But in fact these instruments are changing, transient, and therefore impermanent. They depend on not noticing the One that supports them. If that One is seen, it’s like a magician whose trick is seen through, or the cartoon coyote who, having walked over a cliff and gone 100 steps, suddenly looks down and falls. Instantly the suspension of disbelief is gone. Again, this is because the seeing and the seen depend on there being a boundary between the me (the seer) and not-me. If there was no boundary, or distance, between me and something else, I could never say I saw it. But the me that this depends on is itself an ‘in here,’ me, small, atomic, indivisible — the ego. It assumes to itself the glory of the light of the One which it merely reflects. Like a candle next to the Sun, as soon as we see the Sun, the candle becomes invisible. Once the me cannot stand, the not-me (the seen and the act of seeing) cannot stand either. They exist only if the seer exists. So if we turn attention inward away from the changing objects looking for the One, the usual trio of division falls away. Those who see and understand this are the ones who are truly realized. They are never in doubt, because the mind is the instrument of doubt, and that instrument is only credited if the One is not seen. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. Seems to me some great potential advice to anyone serious about pursuing the existential truth. As to that absence of doubt .. heh heh. A common objection on this forum over the years is "but if you're so sure about what you discovered that you've stopped seeking, then how can you know what you might still have yet to find?". Ironically enough, one of the most effective pointing I've seen in response to this is: "I know nothing, haven't discovered anything, and have lost everything". Also viable: <sips cappuccino> |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 25, 2021 22:14:18 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Ten11. IS IT NOT, RATHER, IGNORANCE TO KNOW ALL ELSE WITHOUT KNOWING ONESELF, THE KNOWER? AS SOON AS ONE KNOWS THE SELF, WHICH IS THE SUBSTRATUM OF KNOWLEDGE AND IGNORANCE, KNOWLEDGE AND IGNORANCE PERISH. Commentary: When you look into the knower of the relative world, that is, the egoic I, which thinks it is the body and the mind, that ego shows itself to be not the knower but merely an object that is known — known in the light of the Self. Knowing that Self, one can no longer take seriously the claims of the ego to be separate. If those claims fall, then the knowledge of the world, and equally the ignorance of the world, also cannot be taken seriously. All our knowledge of the world is based on taking the ego seriously. All our projects and desires, which make use of that knowledge, are based on taking the ego seriously. We live our lives thinking that we are the body and the mind when that is not the case. That is the harshest ignorance. When the ego is looked into and seen to be a mere puppet, and not our actual self, then this deep ignorance disappears — indeed, reveals itself never to have existed in the first place, for to believe that we were affected by that ignorance is itself ignorance. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 0:14:07 GMT -5
Seems like forty verses too many by Ramana lol To much yapping and to much commentary ABOUT the yapping haha Unless of course, you enjoy it :-) Seems they do, as though there be someone treading water to keeping them from drowning.
Is the Woowoo experiece 'that moment' when the bubble collapes and the I has no feet to flapping anylonger?
Perhaps the Zendancer may enlighten me.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 28, 2021 12:00:02 GMT -5
Seems like forty verses too many by Ramana lol To much yapping and to much commentary ABOUT the yapping haha Unless of course, you enjoy it :-) Seems they do, as though there be someone treading water to keeping them from drowning. Is the Woowoo experiece 'that moment' when the bubble collapes and the I has no feet to flapping anylonger? Perhaps the Zendancer may enlighten me.
Kensho events/experiences can be shallow or deep, fleeting glimpses, or deep seeings into one's true nature that can result in one or more significant realizations. Some people denigratingly call them "woo woo experiences" because they often occur with many unusual associated phenomena (extreme euphoria, out of body consciousness, mind reading, perceptual shifts, etc). Some sages advise seekers to ignore them while other sages advise gratitude for any such insights. Seekers who persist eventually discover that THIS is all there is, and that all events or experiences are an unfolding of THIS seen by THIS. After SR, THIS realizes that there is no "other," and life then unfolds in contentment and without further seeking. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 1:25:37 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying ZD.
Happy with kensho word; I will leave woohoo to others seeking experience after experience after |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 29, 2021 6:05:26 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying ZD.
Happy with kensho word; I will leave woohoo to others seeking experience after experience after Yes, the usual downside of a big kensho event is that it leaves selfhood intact and the SVP longing for more of the same. It isn't realized that there was no separate entity that had the kensho, and the SVP thinks that a bigger kensho will result in freedom. Consequently, the SVP starts using every strategy/technique/practice imaginable to get back what has been imagined as lost. Until there is a penetration of the illusion of the SVP the cycle of chasing experiences will continue. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 29, 2021 7:25:10 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying ZD.
Happy with kensho word; I will leave woohoo to others seeking experience after experience after My two cents for whatever they're worth to ya' .. It's a two-sided coin like any other in duality. I had a profound shift in perspective about 12 years ago now that involved some interesting experiences of altered states of consciousness and a sustained feeling of deep and pronounced bliss that lasted on and off for years after. Now, on one hand, I was lucky at the time to encounter all manner of sage personalities on the internet. Some of them listened to the experience and related to it, and some of them pointed out that you "never step in the same river for the first time twice" - some gently, some not - which is actually just a snip of common, adult wisdom that seems to me to be universal of culture. On the other hand, I could look back afterward and recognize the altered states of consciousness and perspective I'd gained from chasing all sorts of experiences throughout my life before the big sift. Mostly from chasing pleasure through sport and other means, plus contemplating the mystery of existence from various angles. So, chasing experience is what it is, no two experiences are ever really exactly the same, and there are some experiences that come easy for one person that are nearly impossible for another, based on all manner of nature and nurture. On the other hand, direct experience is to abstract understanding as a 3-d space is to a 2-d space, and ain't no way to win if you don't play the game. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 22:51:06 GMT -5
Thank you for clarifying ZD.
Happy with kensho word; I will leave woohoo to others seeking experience after experience after My two cents for whatever they're worth to ya' .. It's a two-sided coin like any other in duality. I had a profound shift in perspective about 12 years ago now that involved some interesting experiences of altered states of consciousness and a sustained feeling of deep and pronounced bliss that lasted on and off for years after. Now, on one hand, I was lucky at the time to encounter all manner of sage personalities on the internet. Some of them listened to the experience and related to it, and some of them pointed out that you "never step in the same river for the first time twice" - some gently, some not - which is actually just a snip of common, adult wisdom that seems to me to be universal of culture. On the other hand, I could look back afterward and recognize the altered states of consciousness and perspective I'd gained from chasing all sorts of experiences throughout my life before the big sift. Mostly from chasing pleasure through sport and other means, plus contemplating the mystery of existence from various angles. So, chasing experience is what it is, no two experiences are ever really exactly the same, and there are some experiences that come easy for one person that are nearly impossible for another, based on all manner of nature and nurture. On the other hand, direct experience is to abstract understanding as a 3-d space is to a 2-d space, and ain't no way to win if you don't play the game. Making sense of a 'massive-moment' can last a lifetime.
Was with you all the way untill you produced a Third Hand, lol. We could shrug that off to Mystical
but I think you are like I
whereby settling is now taking place.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 29, 2021 23:44:53 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Eleven12. THAT ALONE IS TRUE KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR IGNORANCE. WHAT IS KNOWN IS NOT TRUE KNOWLEDGE. SINCE THE SELF SHINES WITH NOTHING ELSE TO KNOW OR TO MAKE KNOWN, IT ALONE IS KNOWLEDGE. IT IS NOT A VOID. Commentary: True Knowledge is not knowledge of anything. Knowledge of anything, or knowledge that anything is or is not the case, is relative knowledge of objects, knowledge of things that come and go, things that have boundaries. It is about these things that ignorance is possible. It is only when one looks through the lens of the ego, that separating belief that “I am in here, as opposed to the things I experience, which are out there,” that there are objects to know or to be ignorant of. True Knowledge is that which illuminates even the ego. It isn’t object-based knowledge. It has no opposite. It shines by itself, and is self-illuminating. In the blinding light of the sun, there cannot be said to be any visible objects. The same is true of what is seen in the blinding light of the Self. If one sees the Self, one cannot see the ego. Seeing through the ego is premised on forgetting the Self, on its being obscured — or at least its seeming to be obscured. The knowledge that is the Self is not knowledge of any objects, but that does not mean it is simple nothingness. It’s not a thing, but nor is it a void. It is what it is — pure illumination. What that is like is indescribable, since to describe it, one would need to think about it, and that would require the ego. And yet, though it is indescribable, we experience it at all times. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 31, 2021 9:24:33 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Eleven12. THAT ALONE IS TRUE KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR IGNORANCE. WHAT IS KNOWN IS NOT TRUE KNOWLEDGE. SINCE THE SELF SHINES WITH NOTHING ELSE TO KNOW OR TO MAKE KNOWN, IT ALONE IS KNOWLEDGE. IT IS NOT A VOID. Commentary: True Knowledge is not knowledge of anything. Knowledge of anything, or knowledge that anything is or is not the case, is relative knowledge of objects, knowledge of things that come and go, things that have boundaries. It is about these things that ignorance is possible. It is only when one looks through the lens of the ego, that separating belief that “I am in here, as opposed to the things I experience, which are out there,” that there are objects to know or to be ignorant of. True Knowledge is that which illuminates even the ego. It isn’t object-based knowledge. It has no opposite. It shines by itself, and is self-illuminating. In the blinding light of the sun, there cannot be said to be any visible objects. The same is true of what is seen in the blinding light of the Self. If one sees the Self, one cannot see the ego. Seeing through the ego is premised on forgetting the Self, on its being obscured — or at least its seeming to be obscured. The knowledge that is the Self is not knowledge of any objects, but that does not mean it is simple nothingness. It’s not a thing, but nor is it a void. It is what it is — pure illumination. What that is like is indescribable, since to describe it, one would need to think about it, and that would require the ego. And yet, though it is indescribable, we experience it at all times. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. Ain't no wonder, reading this, that the most common "spiritual advice" is one form of silence, or another. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 31, 2021 11:06:07 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Eleven12. THAT ALONE IS TRUE KNOWLEDGE WHICH IS NEITHER KNOWLEDGE NOR IGNORANCE. WHAT IS KNOWN IS NOT TRUE KNOWLEDGE. SINCE THE SELF SHINES WITH NOTHING ELSE TO KNOW OR TO MAKE KNOWN, IT ALONE IS KNOWLEDGE. IT IS NOT A VOID. Commentary: True Knowledge is not knowledge of anything. Knowledge of anything, or knowledge that anything is or is not the case, is relative knowledge of objects, knowledge of things that come and go, things that have boundaries. It is about these things that ignorance is possible. It is only when one looks through the lens of the ego, that separating belief that “I am in here, as opposed to the things I experience, which are out there,” that there are objects to know or to be ignorant of. True Knowledge is that which illuminates even the ego. It isn’t object-based knowledge. It has no opposite. It shines by itself, and is self-illuminating. In the blinding light of the sun, there cannot be said to be any visible objects. The same is true of what is seen in the blinding light of the Self. If one sees the Self, one cannot see the ego. Seeing through the ego is premised on forgetting the Self, on its being obscured — or at least its seeming to be obscured. The knowledge that is the Self is not knowledge of any objects, but that does not mean it is simple nothingness. It’s not a thing, but nor is it a void. It is what it is — pure illumination. What that is like is indescribable, since to describe it, one would need to think about it, and that would require the ego. And yet, though it is indescribable, we experience it at all times. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. Ain't no wonder, reading this, that the most common "spiritual advice" is one form of silence, or another. Speech is silence, and silence is speech. -Heart sutra, taking a little poetic liberty |
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Post by laughter on Jul 31, 2021 12:21:47 GMT -5
Ain't no wonder, reading this, that the most common "spiritual advice" is one form of silence, or another. Speech is silence, and silence is speech. -Heart sutra, taking a little poetic liberty - modern interpretation of the entirety of the Diamond Sutra |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Jul 31, 2021 14:17:19 GMT -5
Speech is silence, and silence is speech. -Heart sutra, taking a little poetic liberty - modern interpretation of the entirety of the Diamond Sutra Oh shoot, now you've got me intrigued. What's the difference between the ancient and modern interpretations? |
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