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Post by zazeniac on Jul 8, 2021 14:40:57 GMT -5
Yes. You forget you even have a body until the gong sounds, then you have the great realization that you do. Unwinding yourself is quite a chore. I meditated 4 hours a day for quite a long time. It becomes an Olympic sport. There's no benefit. My neck was the bugaboo. I tend to hunch at times. Also the legs fell asleep without proper preparation. You definitely need a good thick cushion. Forty minute sessions are quite enough for me now. It seems after thirty or so is when I can get into NS. Ramana Maharshi talked about something else - I forget the name - but he said it is sometimes confused with NS. He may have called it "nidra __" ??. It was like a waking sleep, the mind was turned off, but then resumed. Are you sure you guys are talking about NS? I mean... isn't it supposed to be *Nirvana*. In other words, isn't it a big deal realization? Maybe it was it that way the first time you hit it? You seem to be talking about it like ho-hum, yeah, I do that after breakfast sometimes. I can also appreciate not making a big deal out of it, especially since this ego may have made spiritual realization into a future "save me" belief. But I wonder about the conflicting accounts of intensity and significance. As I drive cross country, I have searched for some Zen and meditation places. I noticed a few websites had "anti racism" links. Stuff about how white people need to atone for their collective guilt - etc. It sounds like real garbage to me. I got hints of that at some meditation/zen/buddhism groups when I was in CT and MA (US states). Disappointing. Don't know. Maybe it is yoga nidra, but it is different than sleep. Your senses are fully functioning. The gong is kind of a jarring event. You're still following the breath, but it's not the breath. There is no you or breath. One second, there's a me following the breath, thinking, then going back to the breath, next second there is just the breath, nothing else, only I couldn't even be able to identify it as a breath occurring in a body. When the gong sounds then the mind starts filling in the correct information. You're sitting crossed legged, on a cushion, in your study following your breath, your right leg is asleep, you better uncross the legs very carefully etc.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 8, 2021 16:19:17 GMT -5
No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified! Would you use the word "Nirvana" for this "flow" life or "non-abidance in mind" then? Or for something else? I'm not really crazy about the word "nirvana" in the same way that I'm not crazy about the word "heaven." Buddhists range from fundamentalist types to the ND folks of Zen. During 15 years of going to Zen retreats and listening to dozens of dharma talks, I don't remember the word "nirvana" ever being mentioned one time. Many traditional Buddhists, like many traditional Hindus, believe in personal rebirth until one attains liberation, after which rebirth no longer occurs. From my POV it's a rather crazy idea because what we are is born (appears in form) and dies (disappears from form) trillions of times each moment. There is no SVP, so what we are, in the most basic sense, is a process of ceaseless transformation. In fact, when "the little guy in the head" disappeared, the actual words that came to mind after realizing who it is that sees the world were, "OMG, the process of reality is what does everything because that's all there is!" Haha. That's the cosmic joke. IMO the goal of the ND path is the attainment of SR and a life lived in a state of flow, free from attachment to thoughts, but I still wouldn't call it "nirvana" because there's no separate entity who actually attains anything, and there is no special state as elevated as the word "nirvana" implies. Many fundamentalist Christians believe in a future heaven where the streets are paved in gold, and I suspect that Nirvana is just a similar kind of Buddhist/Hindu idea. JMHO
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Post by zendancer on Jul 8, 2021 16:34:58 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. Sesshins I attended were weekend affairs held at the Zen Temple. No different than our meditation practice, but just more of it. We would sit for longer periods. Up to an hour. Always a break including kin-hin or food. Sometimes a talk or chanting. Every one was invited including beginners. Our dojo offered regular zazen practice three times a week. Starting at 7:30 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 10 am on Sundays. We would chant, sit for half an hour, kin-hin, sit for another half hour, make our offerings (donations) then sit and drink tea. Every time at the beginning of zazen, the first sitting, one of the priests would give verbal instructions on zazen, regardless of who was there, beginners or experienced practitioners. It was always the same instruction. At our dojo, there was no orientation. You were thrown to the wolves so to speak. I remember calling them and asking what I needed to do. They just said wear loose clothing and show up on time. When I showed up on a Tuesday night, a priest met me at the door. He told me to take my shoes off and put them in a cubby and to sit down facing the wall. He warned me not to bother anyone. When I tried to explain that I didn't know anything about zazen, he told me again to sit facing the wall and keep quiet and not bother anyone. He was kind of mean looking so I followed directions. Our dojo was very traditional, run by Bishop Matsuoka. The kiusaku was always available. Another zendo I attended for one session insisted I attend an orientation even though I was an experienced practioner.This one was run by westerners. They were very accommodating. At a rinzai dojo, they made me sit facing the wrong way. What's wrong with those people. At our dojo, they allowed some of the elderly western practitioners to sit in chairs. I think the Japanese philosophy is "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I enjoyed the discipline and order. I had one of the priests pull me aside when I'd requested the kiusaku for the sixth time. He asked me what was bothering me. I told him I kept falling asleep because I was tired and he wasn't hitting my body hard enough to scare it into wakefulness. He hit me hard enough then. Japanese culture is not terribly forgiving. Some folks I'm sure were put off by the apparent hardness. I wasn't. Great description of the Japanese Zen approach! Korean Zen is not quite as strict, but many westerners are put off by the formality and all the rules. My wife used to ask me, "What's wrong with all of these people (the hard-core meditators, etc)?" I replied, "Well, a Zen Center is sort of like a hospital for people with a particular kind of sickness." I enjoyed the Zen retreats for many years because I kept penetrating koans and having various insights, and it seemed apparent to me that silent attentiveness was an effective way to cut through seemingly endless layers of cultural conditioning. As Tyler Tarrant once said, "ND is the best game in town!" It certainly was for me. I had hundreds of existential questions that seemed important to me, and they all got answered by becoming silent.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 23:02:01 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. The only other activities (other than sitting meditation, walking meditation, meals, cleanup, and a few rest periods) were work periods that lasted an hour or so, during which each participant did something that needed to be done in or around the facility--clean windows, scrub floors, dust, rake leaves, sweep sidewalks or decks, etc. I don't remember ever being given instructions about sitting, but in my case I had already read a great deal about Zen-style meditation, so I already knew the basics (erect posture, lotus position, eyes unfocused and directed downward at about a 45 degree angle, cosmic mudra hand position, slow diaphragmatic breathing, greater expulsion of air on the out breath to begin, etc). I usually only dealt with leg/knee pain and lower back pain during retreats, and whatever pain occurred tended to disappear in deep states of meditation. Eventually I switched to the Burmese sitting position, and later to a chair. I also shifted to interlocking my fingers and closing my eyes completely, but by that time I no longer cared what the "correct" form was supposed to be. Some people are more flexible than others, and when i was still sitting in a full lotus position, I learned that I could greatly decrease the leg/knee pain by doing lots of stretching prior to sitting. The Japanese Zen tradition is pretty stoical, and pain is just accepted as part of the game. One of the reasons I quit going to Zen retreats is that the rigidity of the tradition no longer made any sense. The last retreat I attended the teacher yelled if anyone made the slightest movement or noise, and that seemed totally absurd. Almost all of the attendees were over the age of fifty, and they had to be highly motivated to even be there, so there was no need for the teacher to take a militant attitude about having perfect silence and total stillness. The teacher had been taught under an extremely rigid ZM, so he was just doing what he was used to doing, but that was the last straw for me. His yells caused more disturbance than any slight noise or movement that the participants might have made. The lack of instructions is really unfortunate, IMO. Because it wouldn't do any harm to tell practitioners what they are supposed to do, how they are supposed to do it and especially why they are supposed to do in exactly that way. In Kriya yoga they are given exact instructions and also (scientific) explanations for why it has to be the full lotus position and no other position. But this lack of detailed instructions may have something to do with the mindset in the Far East, where teaching happens by imitating what the teacher does (and no questions asked), learning by doing so to speak. And that's an important distinction between the Indian and Chinese traditions. The Indians have no problem with giving the mind a reason and a purpose and are therefore much closer to the Western mindset in the regard. Another thing that absolutely doesn't jive with the Kriya yoga tradition is this acceptance of pain as part of the game in Zen. Which, when you think about it, is a bit ironic since the Buddha advised against anything excessive in terms of practice. And I think you are right, this may be a typical Japanese thing. I doubt that the early Chan masters, who all came from a Taoist background, were that rigid in their approach. And I think it's even likely that they, like the Indians, did exercise their bodies. After all, Shaolin, where Bodhidharma started teaching, later became famous for its martial arts that require extreme flexibility of the body. So it does seem to me that Japanese Zen has moved significantly away from its Chinese Chan roots. And after Zen had been introduced in the West, that trend only continued. I remember one of the early, more famous American Zen practitioners (it was either Joko Beck or Toni Packer) who recalled that when Zen spread in America, they were sitting for hours, monotonously reciting sutras in Japanese, and no one understood a thing. It was like in medieval times when they were preaching the Bible in Latin to the common people who didn't understand a thing either. And, IMO, that's just silly and acting purely from dogma. But this may also have something to do with the tendency of vilifying the mind/intellect. Interestingly, in Kriya yoga they actually work with the intellect in the early, preparatory stages because they see the intellect as a natural manifestation in the evolution of awareness from almost unconsciousness to super-consciousness, or from animal (instinct) to human (intellect) to Godman (gnosis). But good to know that you've found your own way in this and cut out the nonsense. I think people should never throw away their common sense (aka inner guidance). That's also the Kriya yoga approach. They basically follow the teachings of Patanjali (Ashtanga Yoga) but not slavishly, they leave out anything excessive and only do what works, i.e. what is (scientifically) proven to work.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 23:07:56 GMT -5
Ramana Maharshi talked about something else - I forget the name - but he said it is sometimes confused with NS. He may have called it "nidra __" ??. It was like a waking sleep, the mind was turned off, but then resumed. Are you sure you guys are talking about NS? I mean... isn't it supposed to be *Nirvana*. In other words, isn't it a big deal realization? Maybe it was it that way the first time you hit it? You seem to be talking about it like ho-hum, yeah, I do that after breakfast sometimes. I can also appreciate not making a big deal out of it, especially since this ego may have made spiritual realization into a future "save me" belief. But I wonder about the conflicting accounts of intensity and significance. As I drive cross country, I searched from some Zen and meditation places. I noticed a few websites had "anti racism" links. Stuff about how white people need to atone for their collective guilt - etc. It sounds like real garbage to me. I got hints of that at some meditation/zen/buddhism groups when I was in CT and MA (US states). Disappointing. No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified! According to my yoga book, nirvana = moksha = kingdom of heaven. And in yoga, NS is also called the pulseless state. So when they are referring to NS, then the body is basically (temporarily) dead, i.e. no heartbeat, no pulse, no breath, body gets cold and stiff after a while. So that's quite different from what you are referring to, right?
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Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 23:26:21 GMT -5
No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified! Would you use the word "Nirvana" for this "flow" life or "non-abidance in mind" then? Or for something else? What we call flow usually runs under various names of samadhi, as well as what we call CC. And that can get a little confusing because different teachers use different terms to point out different facets of this kind of state of being which we call the natural state. But in essence, it all basically boils down to realizing that there is only ONE. In fact, in my yoga book, it is stated that the goal of yoga, aka Self-realization, is to realize Cosmic Consciousness, i.e. realizing that God is all there is and seeing God everywhere and in everything. And this last part, actually seeing God everywhere and in everything is, IMO, an important distinction between Advaita and the yoga traditions, especially Kriya yoga which is entirely practically oriented. That's why I think yoga is mostly concerned with the kensho aspect of SR, and Advaita almost exclusively with the satori aspect of SR. Which makes followers of Advaita come across as a bit too intellectual (or theoretical) at times, and followers of yoga as a bit too concerned with practice (and therefore body and mind). But both traditions work well together, IMO.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 23:41:53 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. Sesshins I attended were weekend affairs held at the Zen Temple. No different than our meditation practice, but just more of it. We would sit for longer periods. Up to an hour. Always a break including kin-hin or food. Sometimes a talk or chanting. Every one was invited including beginners. Our dojo offered regular zazen practice three times a week. Starting at 7:30 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 10 am on Sundays. We would chant, sit for half an hour, kin-hin, sit for another half hour, make our offerings (donations) then sit and drink tea. Every time at the beginning of zazen, the first sitting, one of the priests would give verbal instructions on zazen, regardless of who was there, beginners or experienced practitioners. It was always the same instruction. At our dojo, there was no orientation. You were thrown to the wolves so to speak. I remember calling them and asking what I needed to do. They just said wear loose clothing and show up on time. When I showed up on a Tuesday night, a priest met me at the door. He told me to take my shoes off and put them in a cubby and to sit down facing the wall. He warned me not to bother anyone. When I tried to explain that I didn't know anything about zazen, he told me again to sit facing the wall and keep quiet and not bother anyone. He was kind of mean looking so I followed directions. Our dojo was very traditional, run by Bishop Matsuoka. The kiusaku was always available. Another zendo I attended for one session insisted I attend an orientation even though I was an experienced practioner.This one was run by westerners. They were very accommodating. At a rinzai dojo, they made me sit facing the wrong way. What's wrong with those people. At our dojo, they allowed some of the elderly western practitioners to sit in chairs. I think the Japanese philosophy is "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I enjoyed the discipline and order. I had one of the priests pull me aside when I'd requested the kiusaku for the sixth time. He asked me what was bothering me. I told him I kept falling asleep because I was tired and he wasn't hitting my body hard enough to scare it into wakefulness. He hit me hard enough then. Japanese culture is not terribly forgiving. Some folks I'm sure were put off by the apparent hardness. I wasn't. That was very detailed. Thank you. Yes, the Japanese mindset is a bit militaristic in that regard. And it is no wonder that Zen and Samurai blend so well. But some people naturally prefer a more structured setting over more unstructured environments. Ultimately, there isn't any right or wrong in this, just appropriate or inappropriate as it concerns the individual and his/her temperament maybe - unless you are ending up in some kind of extremes, as ZD was pointing out with the constant shouting. So it seems that mostly it is just ignorance then what makes teachers inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on their students. These teachers seem to just blindly continue with what tradition has taught them and are probably just trying passing it on as purely as possible, without questioning anything. And then in some cases, they overdo it and they go off the rails without noticing it.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 23:43:53 GMT -5
Sesshins I attended were weekend affairs held at the Zen Temple. No different than our meditation practice, but just more of it. We would sit for longer periods. Up to an hour. Always a break including kin-hin or food. Sometimes a talk or chanting. Every one was invited including beginners. Our dojo offered regular zazen practice three times a week. Starting at 7:30 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 10 am on Sundays. We would chant, sit for half an hour, kin-hin, sit for another half hour, make our offerings (donations) then sit and drink tea. Every time at the beginning of zazen, the first sitting, one of the priests would give verbal instructions on zazen, regardless of who was there, beginners or experienced practitioners. It was always the same instruction. At our dojo, there was no orientation. You were thrown to the wolves so to speak. I remember calling them and asking what I needed to do. They just said wear loose clothing and show up on time. When I showed up on a Tuesday night, a priest met me at the door. He told me to take my shoes off and put them in a cubby and to sit down facing the wall. He warned me not to bother anyone. When I tried to explain that I didn't know anything about zazen, he told me again to sit facing the wall and keep quiet and not bother anyone. He was kind of mean looking so I followed directions. Our dojo was very traditional, run by Bishop Matsuoka. The kiusaku was always available. Another zendo I attended for one session insisted I attend an orientation even though I was an experienced practioner.This one was run by westerners. They were very accommodating. At a rinzai dojo, they made me sit facing the wrong way. What's wrong with those people. At our dojo, they allowed some of the elderly western practitioners to sit in chairs. I think the Japanese philosophy is "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I enjoyed the discipline and order. I had one of the priests pull me aside when I'd requested the kiusaku for the sixth time. He asked me what was bothering me. I told him I kept falling asleep because I was tired and he wasn't hitting my body hard enough to scare it into wakefulness. He hit me hard enough then. Japanese culture is not terribly forgiving. Some folks I'm sure were put off by the apparent hardness. I wasn't. Great description of the Japanese Zen approach! Korean Zen is not quite as strict, but many westerners are put off by the formality and all the rules. My wife used to ask me, "What's wrong with all of these people (the hard-core meditators, etc)?" I replied, "Well, a Zen Center is sort of like a hospital for people with a particular kind of sickness." I enjoyed the Zen retreats for many years because I kept penetrating koans and having various insights, and it seemed apparent to me that silent attentiveness was an effective way to cut through seemingly endless layers of cultural conditioning. As Tyler Tarrant once said, "ND is the best game in town!" It certainly was for me. I had hundreds of existential questions that seemed important to me, and they all got answered by becoming silent. Well in that case, it must be silence that's the best game in town.
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Post by lolly on Jul 9, 2021 1:02:46 GMT -5
On retreats I have done new meditators have the same practice schedule as adepts; about 11 hours a day. There are no work sessions or activities for those on retreat, so old meditators do all the work chores like running the kitchen and stuff, and they have to stay for the duration of the retreat, but are not on retreat themselves.
There are different rule sets for the people serving and the people on retreat. Those serving are allowed to talk and have their phones etc, but all that is kept to a bare minimum. Those on retreat just meditate and aren't allowed to do anything like talk, use phones or any entertainment, read or write; and exercise is restricted to walking alone during rest times.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 9, 2021 3:24:47 GMT -5
No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified! According to my yoga book, nirvana = moksha = kingdom of heaven. And in yoga, NS is also called the pulseless state. So when they are referring to NS, then the body is basically (temporarily) dead, i.e. no heartbeat, no pulse, no breath, body gets cold and stiff after a while. So that's quite different from what you are referring to, right? No, that's exactly what I'm referring to. Yes, the body gets cold, breathing slows down so much that it almost seems to stop, and the body becomes inert. Zen calls it "the falling off of body and mind" because there is awareness but no content of awareness (and no body consciousness at all). I'm sure that there is still a pulse and some degree of breathing or the body would die. While exiting that state, it feels like the body is a block of ice thawing out, and the body seems to move in slow motion for several minutes. The body can feel stiff, but only if NS continued for a long time (several hours or more). I don't see why anyone would equate NS with nirvana or SR because it's still a transient state that comes and goes. I've been reading about Ramakrishna, who fell into deep samadhi even while standing up, and he was revered for that ability, but that's a long way from what I consider to be an enlightened state of mind. I haven't yet finished the book, but so far I haven't read about anything that seems terribly impressive. Some people fall into NS quite easily. I think Satch claimed that from the time of his earliest meditations, he easily entered that state, but for most people it requires a lot of meditation and a lot of intense concentration. It's interesting that several ND characters, such as Gangaji, Segal, and others, report falling into samadhi as little children. I think Segal said it happened by sitting on a sofa, closing her eyes, and repeating her name over and over until she disappeared. In Gangaji's case, her falling into that state so worried her parents that they took her to a doc who prescribed some sort of medication to prevent it from happening. Z can add whatever comments to this that might seem applicable.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 9, 2021 10:10:48 GMT -5
Great description of the Japanese Zen approach! Korean Zen is not quite as strict, but many westerners are put off by the formality and all the rules. My wife used to ask me, "What's wrong with all of these people (the hard-core meditators, etc)?" I replied, "Well, a Zen Center is sort of like a hospital for people with a particular kind of sickness." I enjoyed the Zen retreats for many years because I kept penetrating koans and having various insights, and it seemed apparent to me that silent attentiveness was an effective way to cut through seemingly endless layers of cultural conditioning. As Tyler Tarrant once said, "ND is the best game in town!" It certainly was for me. I had hundreds of existential questions that seemed important to me, and they all got answered by becoming silent. Well in that case, it must be silence that's the best game in town. Sounds good to me! I wrote an article in the past about this titled "Silence Ends the Search" and I think it's included in one of the TAT books.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 9, 2021 10:11:58 GMT -5
Would you use the word "Nirvana" for this "flow" life or "non-abidance in mind" then? Or for something else? What we call flow usually runs under various names of samadhi, as well as what we call CC. And that can get a little confusing because different teachers use different terms to point out different facets of this kind of state of being which we call the natural state. But in essence, it all basically boils down to realizing that there is only ONE. In fact, in my yoga book, it is stated that the goal of yoga, aka Self-realization, is to realize Cosmic Consciousness, i.e. realizing that God is all there is and seeing God everywhere and in everything. And this last part, actually seeing God everywhere and in everything is, IMO, an important distinction between Advaita and the yoga traditions, especially Kriya yoga which is entirely practically oriented. That's why I think yoga is mostly concerned with the kensho aspect of SR, and Advaita almost exclusively with the satori aspect of SR. Which makes followers of Advaita come across as a bit too intellectual (or theoretical) at times, and followers of yoga as a bit too concerned with practice (and therefore body and mind). But both traditions work well together, IMO. Agreed. The two traditions are rather complementary.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 9, 2021 11:27:50 GMT -5
According to my yoga book, nirvana = moksha = kingdom of heaven. And in yoga, NS is also called the pulseless state. So when they are referring to NS, then the body is basically (temporarily) dead, i.e. no heartbeat, no pulse, no breath, body gets cold and stiff after a while. So that's quite different from what you are referring to, right? No, that's exactly what I'm referring to. Yes, the body gets cold, breathing slows down so much that it almost seems to stop, and the body becomes inert. Zen calls it "the falling off of body and mind" because there is awareness but no content of awareness (and no body consciousness at all). I'm sure that there is still a pulse and some degree of breathing or the body would die. While exiting that state, it feels like the body is a block of ice thawing out, and the body seems to move in slow motion for several minutes. The body can feel stiff, but only if NS continued for a long time (several hours or more). I don't see why anyone would equate NS with nirvana or SR because it's still a transient state that comes and goes. I've been reading about Ramakrishna, who fell into deep samadhi even while standing up, and he was revered for that ability, but that's a long way from what I consider to be an enlightened state of mind. I haven't yet finished the book, but so far I haven't read about anything that seems terribly impressive. Some people fall into NS quite easily. I think Satch claimed that from the time of his earliest meditations, he easily entered that state, but for most people it requires a lot of meditation and a lot of intense concentration. It's interesting that several ND characters, such as Gangaji, Segal, and others, report falling into samadhi as little children. I think Segal said it happened by sitting on a sofa, closing her eyes, and repeating her name over and over until she disappeared. In Gangaji's case, her falling into that state so worried her parents that they took her to a doc who prescribed some sort of medication to prevent it from happening. Z can add whatever comments to this that might seem applicable. That's excellent! I always thought you had some disagreement on technical issues. But your issue seems to be with the relevance of NS in the context of SR. And I have a similar issue with the yoga tradition where they see NS as the ultimate goal. And while I found plenty of references to kensho in my yoga book, I haven't found anything yet that would match satori. And that's a bit strange. Yes, Ramakrishna was a bit of an exception in that way because he usually spontaneously fell into some kind of samadhi, often very deep states of samadhi. And I imagine it must have been quite a sight, seeing Ramakrishna singing and dancing with gay abandon and then suddenly conking out and standing there motionless, like the proverbial pillar of salt. I didn't know that about Gangaji. Interesting. But it is said that Yogananda could go in and out of NS whenever and wherever he wanted. In yoga they treat it more like a skill, the going in and out of samadhi, and they don't see NS as some kind of exception in the regard. So in that context, Satch's claim is perfectly reasonable. Essentially, samadhis are just referring to oneness experiences which the Indians have categorized into several levels, indicating the depth of the experience. And that has to be a bit arbitrary to some degree and different teachers often seem to use the same terms but refer to something different. But no matter how fascinating these kind of experiences, I am always left with the exact same question in the end: What's that got to do with SR? And as already mentioned, I am missing some clear descriptions of what we here call satori. Maybe someone else can help me out here.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 9, 2021 11:58:06 GMT -5
No, that's exactly what I'm referring to. Yes, the body gets cold, breathing slows down so much that it almost seems to stop, and the body becomes inert. Zen calls it "the falling off of body and mind" because there is awareness but no content of awareness (and no body consciousness at all). I'm sure that there is still a pulse and some degree of breathing or the body would die. While exiting that state, it feels like the body is a block of ice thawing out, and the body seems to move in slow motion for several minutes. The body can feel stiff, but only if NS continued for a long time (several hours or more). I don't see why anyone would equate NS with nirvana or SR because it's still a transient state that comes and goes. I've been reading about Ramakrishna, who fell into deep samadhi even while standing up, and he was revered for that ability, but that's a long way from what I consider to be an enlightened state of mind. I haven't yet finished the book, but so far I haven't read about anything that seems terribly impressive. Some people fall into NS quite easily. I think Satch claimed that from the time of his earliest meditations, he easily entered that state, but for most people it requires a lot of meditation and a lot of intense concentration. It's interesting that several ND characters, such as Gangaji, Segal, and others, report falling into samadhi as little children. I think Segal said it happened by sitting on a sofa, closing her eyes, and repeating her name over and over until she disappeared. In Gangaji's case, her falling into that state so worried her parents that they took her to a doc who prescribed some sort of medication to prevent it from happening. Z can add whatever comments to this that might seem applicable. That's excellent! I always thought you had some disagreement on technical issues. But your issue seems to be with the relevance of NS in the context of SR. And I have a similar issue with the yoga tradition where they see NS as the ultimate goal. And while I found plenty of references to kensho in my yoga book, I haven't found anything yet that would match satori. And that's a bit strange. Yes, Ramakrishna was a bit of an exception in that way because he usually spontaneously fell into some kind of samadhi, often very deep states of samadhi. And I imagine it must have been quite a sight, seeing Ramakrishna singing and dancing with gay abandon and then suddenly conking out and standing there motionless, like the proverbial pillar of salt. I didn't know that about Gangaji. Interesting. But it is said that Yogananda could go in and out of NS whenever and wherever he wanted. In yoga they treat it more like a skill, the going in and out of samadhi, and they don't see NS as some kind of exception in the regard. So in that context, Satch's claim is perfectly reasonable. Essentially, samadhis are just referring to oneness experiences which the Indians have categorized into several levels, indicating the depth of the experience. And that has to be a bit arbitrary to some degree and different teachers often seem to use the same terms but refer to something different. But no matter how fascinating these kind of experiences, I am always left with the exact same question in the end: What's that got to do with SR? And as already mentioned, I am missing some clear descriptions of what we here call satori. Maybe someone else can help me out here. Checking a dictionary and wikipedia it appears that satori is equivalent to a deep kensho. Wiki goes on to say that after kensho/satori, attaining Buddhahood, or full enlightenment, depends upon repeated deep experiences of one's true nature and a spiritual maturation gained through meditation and further realizations. Oddly enough, I could not find anything that discusses what we call "SR." If you remember, Figs could not believe that I had had a huge CC and yet still imagined that I was a separate entity who had had that experience as well as various major realizations that resulted from it. I told her that that's just what happened here, and it is actually far more common than what happened with the Buddha because the Buddha apparently had a single kensho/satori that not only allowed him to see into his true nature but also freed him from the illusion of being a SVP. I remember Figs asking, in essence, "How, if you saw that reality is a unified infinite whole and all separation is an illusion, could you have failed to see that you were NOT a SVP?" All that I could do was reply, "That's just what happened." From reading the biographies of dozens of ZM's, it appears that my experience is typical of most Zen people who have CC's. We talk a lot about SR on the forum, but I suspect that most people who are serious seekers have numerous realizations during their search, some big and some small. In my case, I once wrote down the sequence of realizations that occurred after I started meditating, and there were about 5 or 6 big ones and dozens of small ones over a period of 15 years. Each big realization was life-changing in some way. In a sense, any time a koan is resolved, a realization is involved because the resolution always involves a sudden seeing and a realization that one had followed the words of a koan rather than seeing the simple truth underlying them.
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Post by Reefs on Jul 9, 2021 13:02:27 GMT -5
Checking a dictionary and wikipedia it appears that satori is equivalent to a deep kensho. Wiki goes on to say that after kensho/satori, attaining Buddhahood, or full enlightenment, depends upon repeated deep experiences of one's true nature and a spiritual maturation gained through meditation and further realizations. Oddly enough, I could not find anything that discusses what we call "SR." If you remember, Figs could not believe that I had had a huge CC and yet still imagined that I was a separate entity who had had that experience as well as various major realizations that resulted from it. I told her that that's just what happened here, and it is actually far more common than what happened with the Buddha because the Buddha apparently had a single kensho/satori that not only allowed him to see into his true nature but also freed him from the illusion of being a SVP. I remember Figs asking, in essence, "How, if you saw that reality is a unified infinite whole and all separation is an illusion, could you have failed to see that you were NOT a SVP?" All that I could do was reply, "That's just what happened." From reading the biographies of dozens of ZM's, it appears that my experience is typical of most Zen people who have CC's. We talk a lot about SR on the forum, but I suspect that most people who are serious seekers have numerous realizations during their search, some big and some small. In my case, I once wrote down the sequence of realizations that occurred after I started meditating, and there were about 5 or 6 big ones and dozens of small ones over a period of 15 years. Each big realization was life-changing in some way. In a sense, any time a koan is resolved, a realization is involved because the resolution always involves a sudden seeing and a realization that one had followed the words of a koan rather than seeing the simple truth underlying them. I'd take Wikipedia entries with a grain of salt. The meaning of kensho is pretty straightforward, from the meaning of the Chinese characters alone (literally 'seeing into your own nature'). So that's basically self-explanatory. The meaning of the satori character is a bit more abstract (comprehension or sudden understanding). So there's room for interpretation. From my perspective, and based on my story, kensho and satori are two aspects of one realization (oneness realization). So I'm basically with the Buddha on this one, simply because that's how it happened here. And if I wouldn't have learned about your story and and how it happened there, I'd probably still insist that there is only one realization, or at least one that really counts in case someone insists on other live-changing insights. I think what Figgles never understood was that people use the term CC and can mean very different things because it is such a vague and also popular term in spiritual circles. When people on spiritual forums refer to CC they usually refer to a woo-woo experience, i.e. experience minus realization. And that seems rather common. Figgles may have had some of those. But what we are referring to with the term CC is an experience plus a realization, or more precisely, a realization that is accompanied by an experience. And that is much less common. And Figgles made it abundantly clear in our conversations that that she had no reference for that kind of realization. So all she could do was projecting the experience onto the realization. And that's where it gets nonsensical, of course. What I think added to the confusion is that CC experiences can - and usually do - reoccur. The realization, of course, doesn't. It's a one time event. Once you've passed thru the gateless gate, you're on the other side and the gate becomes meaningless. You've seen into your own nature, you can't unsee that, come hell or high water. And how you get to that ultimate realization that we call SR shouldn't actually matter. As Ramakrishna once said, once you've reached the roof, you're on the roof and don't care anymore if you've got there by climbing up a ladder or several flights of stairs. But in any case of SR, I think there's a natural tendency to take our own story as the standard template for how this is thought to generally unfold. Only when we hear enough other stories that differ significantly from our story, we realize that this may be much less predictable or standardizable than it initially seemed. I had a lot of discussions with Laughter about this. Because he didn't seem to find his story reflected in my story and also not in your story. And so there you have it, God's ways are mysterious! Better leave it there.
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