Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 15:43:59 GMT -5
I would like to know this “nirvikalpa samadhi” (NS), [...] [...] Typically, meditators remain in that state somewhere between thirty minutes and two or three hours. On long retreats some meditators have remained in that state for one or two days before exiting. [...] Are these historical/legend stories, or modern stories? (I refer to the "one or two days" in NS.) That seems like an extreme feat, from a physiological view – to not sleep and to stay in a meditation position for that long without succumbing to back pain, etc.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 6, 2021 19:12:06 GMT -5
[...] Typically, meditators remain in that state somewhere between thirty minutes and two or three hours. On long retreats some meditators have remained in that state for one or two days before exiting. [...] Are these historical/legend stories, or modern stories? (I refer to the "one or two days" in NS.) That seems like an extreme feat, from a physiological view – to not sleep and to stay in a meditation position for that long without succumbing to back pain, etc. Yes, these are modern day events. Zen people often do 7 day silent retreats, and many Zen traditions do 90 day retreats. When I was active in that tradition (more than 25 years ago), I never had time to do anything more than 3-day weekend retreats, but deep long-lasting states of NS are not that unusual. Zen teaches people to sit in a way that reduces back pain, neck pain, etc, and it is common for people to sit for several hours in NS. Multi-day immersion in NS is not nearly as common, but it certainly occurs.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2021 10:58:20 GMT -5
Joko Beck said sesshins longer than 10 days are not significantly more useful than a 10 retreat. She also said as part of the reason, the longer retreats are not as intensive, have much shorter periods of meditation each day, a total of no more than few hours per day.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 7, 2021 11:55:43 GMT -5
Joko Beck said sesshins longer than 10 days are not significantly more useful than a 10 retreat. She also said as part of the reason, the longer retreats are not as intensive, have much shorter periods of meditation each day, a total of no more than few hours per day. Yes, in my experience 3 day weekend retreats were sufficiently intense. 108 full prostration bows began the day at 4:30 AM followed by chanting for 40 minutes, then a 30 minute break for clean up, an hour of meditation, an hour for breakfast and cleanup, then 2 hours for meditation, 1 hour for a work period, 1 hour for lunch, then 3 hours of meditation in the afternoon, an hour for dinner, followed by 2+ hours of meditation, with the day ending with chanting the heart sutra from 9:15 tip 9:30. The next day? Rinse and repeat. Meditation periods were usually 45 minutes long with 10 minute walking meditation periods to give one's legs a break from the lotus position. By the end of the second day this routine led to what most of us considered significant intensity.
|
|
|
Post by lolly on Jul 7, 2021 21:08:54 GMT -5
Joko Beck said sesshins longer than 10 days are not significantly more useful than a 10 retreat. She also said as part of the reason, the longer retreats are not as intensive, have much shorter periods of meditation each day, a total of no more than few hours per day. 108 full prostration bows began the day at 4:30 AM We call them Burpees
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jul 8, 2021 8:39:34 GMT -5
[...] Typically, meditators remain in that state somewhere between thirty minutes and two or three hours. On long retreats some meditators have remained in that state for one or two days before exiting. [...] Are these historical/legend stories, or modern stories? (I refer to the "one or two days" in NS.) That seems like an extreme feat, from a physiological view – to not sleep and to stay in a meditation position for that long without succumbing to back pain, etc. Yes. You forget you even have a body until the gong sounds, then you have the great realization that you do. Unwinding yourself is quite a chore. I meditated 4 hours a day for quite a long time. It becomes an Olympic sport. There's no benefit. My neck was the bugaboo. I tend to hunch at times. Also the legs fell asleep without proper preparation. You definitely need a good thick cushion. Forty minute sessions are quite enough for me now. It seems after thirty or so is when I can get into NS.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 8:52:04 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ:
You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 10:01:39 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. The other guys can answer better, but I went to a Zen center a few times and they did not encourage beginners to go on 'retreats'. The session during the week had a short meditation, walk, meditation, then talk - totaling about 2 hours I think - that was for beginners. And you could leave after just one meditation part which would be about 30-45 minutes. People used various positions. I think some places allow people with knee issues to use a chair. I can't tolerate full kneeling. I used burmese posture (it's like a lotus but with feet free) on a good zafu/cushion. I can do that or a chair with proper height, or one of those kneeling chairs that puts your thighs on an incline.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 10:29:39 GMT -5
Are these historical/legend stories, or modern stories? (I refer to the "one or two days" in NS.) That seems like an extreme feat, from a physiological view – to not sleep and to stay in a meditation position for that long without succumbing to back pain, etc. Yes. You forget you even have a body until the gong sounds, then you have the great realization that you do. Unwinding yourself is quite a chore. I meditated 4 hours a day for quite a long time. It becomes an Olympic sport. There's no benefit. My neck was the bugaboo. I tend to hunch at times. Also the legs fell asleep without proper preparation. You definitely need a good thick cushion. Forty minute sessions are quite enough for me now. It seems after thirty or so is when I can get into NS. Ramana Maharshi talked about something else - I forget the name - but he said it is sometimes confused with NS. He may have called it "nidra __" ??. It was like a waking sleep, the mind was turned off, but then resumed. Are you sure you guys are talking about NS? I mean... isn't it supposed to be *Nirvana*. In other words, isn't it a big deal realization? Maybe it was it that way the first time you hit it? You seem to be talking about it like ho-hum, yeah, I do that after breakfast sometimes. I can also appreciate not making a big deal out of it, especially since this ego may have made spiritual realization into a future "save me" belief. But I wonder about the conflicting accounts of intensity and significance. As I drive cross country, I have searched for some Zen and meditation places. I noticed a few websites had "anti racism" links. Stuff about how white people need to atone for their collective guilt - etc. It sounds like real garbage to me. I got hints of that at some meditation/zen/buddhism groups when I was in CT and MA (US states). Disappointing.
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Jul 8, 2021 10:43:41 GMT -5
The other guys can answer better, but I went to a Zen center a few times and they did not encourage beginners to go on 'retreats'. The session during the week had a short meditation, walk, meditation, then talk - totaling about 2 hours I think - that was for beginners. And you could leave after just one meditation part which would be about 30-45 minutes. People used various positions. I think some places allow people with knee issues to use a chair. I can't tolerate full kneeling. I used burmese posture (it's like a lotus but with feet free) on a good zafu/cushion. I can do that or a chair with proper height, or one of those kneeling chairs that puts your thighs on an incline. I've always done full lotus when meditating. Never really had a problem with that. I've never heard the term "burmese posture" but I looked it up and it seems that's what I usually do when I do yoga. I am currently reading a book on Kriya Yoga written by one of Yogananda's disciples. Really well written and very informative. And from the yoga perspective, there's (biological and physiological) reasons why they insist on full lotus. However, they wouldn't teach a newbie to meditate. They would first prepare his body and mind so that he can do it with ease. Which means they would start with Hatha yoga first to get the body in shape so that he then can sit with ease (and pain free!) for hours. Now imagine if someone would have told that Jan and how much unnecessary pain and suffering he could have avoided!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 11:19:59 GMT -5
The other guys can answer better, but I went to a Zen center a few times and they did not encourage beginners to go on 'retreats'. The session during the week had a short meditation, walk, meditation, then talk - totaling about 2 hours I think - that was for beginners. And you could leave after just one meditation part which would be about 30-45 minutes. People used various positions. I think some places allow people with knee issues to use a chair. I can't tolerate full kneeling. I used burmese posture (it's like a lotus but with feet free) on a good zafu/cushion. I can do that or a chair with proper height, or one of those kneeling chairs that puts your thighs on an incline. I've always done full lotus when meditating. Never really had a problem with that. I've never heard the term "burmese posture" but I looked it up and it seems that's what I usually do when I do yoga. I am currently reading a book on Kriya Yoga written by one of Yogananda's disciples. Really well written and very informative. And from the yoga perspective, there's (biological and physiological) reasons why they insist on full lotus. However, they wouldn't teach a newbie to meditate. They would first prepare his body and mind so that he can do it with ease. Which means they would start with Hatha yoga first to get the body in shape so that he then can sit with ease (and pain free!) for hours. Now imagine if someone would have told that Jan and how much unnecessary pain and suffering he could have avoided! Yeah, being in shape helps. I like going to gym and I notice some stretching and core strength (eg, abs, back, sides) seems to reduce the aches and pains of sitting. And just exercise in general helps me then sit still and relax. I want to add the kneeling chair to that diagram between stool and chair. I had some of my best meditations on one of those. For those who have problems sitting in other positions, I recommend trying it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 8, 2021 12:39:40 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. The only other activities (other than sitting meditation, walking meditation, meals, cleanup, and a few rest periods) were work periods that lasted an hour or so, during which each participant did something that needed to be done in or around the facility--clean windows, scrub floors, dust, rake leaves, sweep sidewalks or decks, etc. I don't remember ever being given instructions about sitting, but in my case I had already read a great deal about Zen-style meditation, so I already knew the basics (erect posture, lotus position, eyes unfocused and directed downward at about a 45 degree angle, cosmic mudra hand position, slow diaphragmatic breathing, greater expulsion of air on the out breath to begin, etc). I usually only dealt with leg/knee pain and lower back pain during retreats, and whatever pain occurred tended to disappear in deep states of meditation. Eventually I switched to the Burmese sitting position, and later to a chair. I also shifted to interlocking my fingers and closing my eyes completely, but by that time I no longer cared what the "correct" form was supposed to be. Some people are more flexible than others, and when i was still sitting in a full lotus position, I learned that I could greatly decrease the leg/knee pain by doing lots of stretching prior to sitting. The Japanese Zen tradition is pretty stoical, and pain is just accepted as part of the game. One of the reasons I quit going to Zen retreats is that the rigidity of the tradition no longer made any sense. The last retreat I attended the teacher yelled if anyone made the slightest movement or noise, and that seemed totally absurd. Almost all of the attendees were over the age of fifty, and they had to be highly motivated to even be there, so there was no need for the teacher to take a militant attitude about having perfect silence and total stillness. The teacher had been taught under an extremely rigid ZM, so he was just doing what he was used to doing, but that was the last straw for me. His yells caused more disturbance than any slight noise or movement that the participants might have made.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jul 8, 2021 12:51:24 GMT -5
Yes. You forget you even have a body until the gong sounds, then you have the great realization that you do. Unwinding yourself is quite a chore. I meditated 4 hours a day for quite a long time. It becomes an Olympic sport. There's no benefit. My neck was the bugaboo. I tend to hunch at times. Also the legs fell asleep without proper preparation. You definitely need a good thick cushion. Forty minute sessions are quite enough for me now. It seems after thirty or so is when I can get into NS. Ramana Maharshi talked about something else - I forget the name - but he said it is sometimes confused with NS. He may have called it "nidra __" ??. It was like a waking sleep, the mind was turned off, but then resumed. Are you sure you guys are talking about NS? I mean... isn't it supposed to be *Nirvana*. In other words, isn't it a big deal realization? Maybe it was it that way the first time you hit it? You seem to be talking about it like ho-hum, yeah, I do that after breakfast sometimes. I can also appreciate not making a big deal out of it, especially since this ego may have made spiritual realization into a future "save me" belief. But I wonder about the conflicting accounts of intensity and significance. As I drive cross country, I searched from some Zen and meditation places. I noticed a few websites had "anti racism" links. Stuff about how white people need to atone for their collective guilt - etc. It sounds like real garbage to me. I got hints of that at some meditation/zen/buddhism groups when I was in CT and MA (US states). Disappointing. No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 13:10:58 GMT -5
Ramana Maharshi talked about something else - I forget the name - but he said it is sometimes confused with NS. He may have called it "nidra __" ??. It was like a waking sleep, the mind was turned off, but then resumed. Are you sure you guys are talking about NS? I mean... isn't it supposed to be *Nirvana*. In other words, isn't it a big deal realization? Maybe it was it that way the first time you hit it? You seem to be talking about it like ho-hum, yeah, I do that after breakfast sometimes. I can also appreciate not making a big deal out of it, especially since this ego may have made spiritual realization into a future "save me" belief. But I wonder about the conflicting accounts of intensity and significance. [...] No, NS is not nirvana! Many people in Hindu traditions think that's the case, but it's not. NS is simply a deep blissful non-dual state of pure awareness. Many people attain SR who have never experienced NS. If there is any goal in ND, it is freedom from the mind's shenanigans. Zen calls if "non-abidance in mind." Ramana called it "sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi." Secular people call it "flow." It's similar to living life like a little child while retaining full adult intellectual capability. No concern for past or future, and no effort to get anywhere or be anybody special. In the Zen tradition it's like going full circle back to the starting point having left all of the consensus paradigm baggage (conditioning) behind. Life becomes extremely simple and straight forward. I once told a spiritual athlete that the goal of Zen was to become an ordinary person, and he was horrified! Would you use the word "Nirvana" for this "flow" life or "non-abidance in mind" then? Or for something else?
|
|
|
Post by zazeniac on Jul 8, 2021 14:24:04 GMT -5
@ ZD and ZZ: You both repeatedly went to Zen retreats, right. I was wondering, apart from just sitting there in meditation all day, are there any other activities? And, lets' say, a newbee arrives there, with zero practice in meditation, are there any preparatory steps before they can sit with the rest of the group? Some specific instructions maybe? What if they can't sit because they are not fit (e.g. stiff legs that hurt terribly or mental issues that don't allow them to focus)? What Jan told us, when he was in Japan, he was always in terrible pain because his body just wasn't prepared for that kind of posture. Or he dozed off because his mind wasn't able to focus. And no one seemed to care or try to help him prepare his body and mind for meditation. And from the yoga perspective, that does seem either extremely ignorant, careless or even cruel on Sensei's part. Just wondering. Sesshins I attended were weekend affairs held at the Zen Temple. No different than our meditation practice, but just more of it. We would sit for longer periods. Up to an hour. Always a break including kin-hin or food. Sometimes a talk or chanting. Every one was invited including beginners. Our dojo offered regular zazen practice three times a week. Starting at 7:30 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays and 10 am on Sundays. We would chant, sit for half an hour, kin-hin, sit for another half hour, make our offerings (donations) then sit and drink tea. Every time at the beginning of zazen, the first sitting, one of the priests would give verbal instructions on zazen, regardless of who was there, beginners or experienced practitioners. It was always the same instruction. At our dojo, there was no orientation. You were thrown to the wolves so to speak. I remember calling them and asking what I needed to do. They just said wear loose clothing and show up on time. When I showed up on a Tuesday night, a priest met me at the door. He told me to take my shoes off and put them in a cubby and to sit down facing the wall. He warned me not to bother anyone. When I tried to explain that I didn't know anything about zazen, he told me again to sit facing the wall and keep quiet and not bother anyone. He was kind of mean looking so I followed directions. Our dojo was very traditional, run by Bishop Matsuoka. The kiusaku was always available. Another zendo I attended for one session insisted I attend an orientation even though I was an experienced practioner.This one was run by westerners. They were very accommodating. At a rinzai dojo, they made me sit facing the wrong way. What's wrong with those people. At our dojo, they allowed some of the elderly western practitioners to sit in chairs. I think the Japanese philosophy is "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I enjoyed the discipline and order. I had one of the priests pull me aside when I'd requested the kiusaku for the sixth time. He asked me what was bothering me. I told him I kept falling asleep because I was tired and he wasn't hitting my body hard enough to scare it into wakefulness. He hit me hard enough then. Japanese culture is not terribly forgiving. Some folks I'm sure were put off by the apparent hardness. I wasn't.
|
|