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Post by lolly on May 8, 2020 0:36:27 GMT -5
I have no idea what observes, just that there is observation, and also, that people tend to overlook their tendencies. During my day I overlook it, but during my deliberate meditation time I notice much more and am aware of very subtle nuances. I think we have to make categories of will to talk about this subject. First category is 'intent' defined as the ability to direct and focus attention to see it 'as it is'. Second category is 'volition' which is using will power to make it 'as you want it to be'. The former is very obvious because if you determine to feel your breath, you will notice some sort of feeling there. The latter is a bit more complicated, and I won't go into the details now, but mindfulness is essentially the cessation of volition. This is choiceless in the sense that you see it 'as it is' without doing anything to make it 'as you want it to be'.
But why do you make the distinction between "during my day" and "deliberate meditation time"? Why not carry the observation more into "during my day"? And: Have you not noticed an inherent contradiction in the words used to describe ~your process~? You have written about seeing the mind having a tendency to wander off thinking this and that (my words). There is no control here. But then you call trying to control what happens, volition. This is what's imaginary, there is no volition in this sense. A something trying to control here, control the thinking, mind trying to control itself or self trying to control the mind, is all imaginary. So why do you call it volition when you also seem to know ATST that it all just happens? Don't you see the contradiction? All one can do is observe what's happening, one cannot control what's happening, can't control thoughts, feelings or bodily actions. But you absolutely know you can observe. You demonstrate you know you can observe. It's obvious from your posts over the years that you can observe. And that's what's volitional (because you know you can do it), the observing. You can in a sense call it choiceless, because ego/small s self is not involved in the observing, it is not what observes. But sdp prefers to call it volitional precisely because ego/small s self is not involved in the seeing. Ego/small s self is what is seen. (And this is for zd. Is it not apparent that the universe involves a degrading process of entropy? (Almost) all things left alone degrade, disintegrate, lose order, decrease in capability to do work. Life is the only something in the universe which counters this increasing move to increasing negative entropy, that is, left alone, things fall apart. But scientists cannot explain life. Scientists cannot make life. Life only comes from life. So life is not a bottom up phenomenon. Life originates from Top down. But the Top is invisible, unmanifest. So there is not one movement of the Whole. There are two movements. To scientists, physicists, the universe as a whole always moves toward increasing negative entropy. Ask any physicist, the one incontrovertible law in the universe is the second law of thermodynamics, entropy always increases. But the other movement is life, life decreases entropy (in its immediate environment, the total entropy of the universe always increases). The essence of the meaning of increasing entropy is the fact that it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine. In any mechanical device, you can't get more energy out of it that you put in, you can't even break even. So the very purpose of the whole universe, is to make life possible, manifest life. And the manifest life arises out of the invisible unmanifest life, which invisibly permeates the whole. These two flows are the yin and the yang of the universe. The human body is as close as one can come to a perpetual motion machine). Yes the meditation goes on throughout the day, but during meditation times it's far more focused and nuanced..
In meditation you aren't conscious of the mind wandering off, but at some point you realise that it has. Over time you notice it sooner and wandering becomes less frequent and shorter in duration.
I defined 'volition' as 'trying to make it as you want it to be. Essentially, volition in incited by the reactivity (which is unintentional) of being adverse to experience and desiring another experience. Saying there is no volition is to say there is no averse nor craven reactivity.
Of course you can control things. For example you can breath faster or slower, or deeper or shallower at will. There is a very clear difference between 'just observing' the breath and controlling your breath. If you were doing a deep breathing exercise and I told you to stop controlling the breath, you'd cease the volition and thus cease to breath deeply. Even though that states the obvious, you'll insist that there is no volition and you can't control your breathing.
Observation itself is not volitional. It is 'already there'. The meditation is basically a process of recognising what you do, which is incited by reactivity (which is not intentional)... and here we come across the limits of the categorical distinction between intent and voltion, and you can only know 'what its like' through practice.
That is also where I depart from the folly of ignoring thoughts... you already noticed it in order to ignore it. You notice it. It is as it is. Completely, undeniably, simply true; and continue, as you intend, to observe the breath. You will find there comes a point when you become overwhelmed and can no longer 'just observe' as reactivity becomes compulsive, but that's the skill we'd be working on and calling 'meditation practice'.
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Post by zendancer on May 8, 2020 16:36:40 GMT -5
(And this is for zd. Is it not apparent that the universe involves a degrading process of entropy? (Almost) all things left alone degrade, disintegrate, lose order, decrease in capability to do work. Life is the only something in the universe which counters this increasing move to increasing negative entropy, that is, left alone, things fall apart. But scientists cannot explain life. Scientists cannot make life. Life only comes from life. So life is not a bottom up phenomenon. Life originates from Top down. But the Top is invisible, unmanifest. So there is not one movement of the Whole. There are two movements. To scientists, physicists, the universe as a whole always moves toward increasing negative entropy. Ask any physicist, the one incontrovertible law in the universe is the second law of thermodynamics, entropy always increases. But the other movement is life, life decreases entropy (in its immediate environment, the total entropy of the universe always increases). The essence of the meaning of increasing entropy is the fact that it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine. In any mechanical device, you can't get more energy out of it that you put in, you can't even break even. So the very purpose of the whole universe, is to make life possible, manifest life. And the manifest life arises out of the invisible unmanifest life, which invisibly permeates the whole. These two flows are the yin and the yang of the universe. The human body is as close as one can come to a perpetual motion machine). This has little meaning for me because even though I understand the scientific models the truth lies beyond the intellect. I suppose that in order to grok oneness one must have a direct apprehension of oneness. Afterwards, the idea of twoness disappears completely. With that kind of seeing, manifest/unmanifest, inside/outside, increasing entropy/decreasing entropy, yin/yang, and all other conceptual opposites collapse into a state of inseparable isness. As Gopal would say, "Everything moves as one."
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Post by lolly on May 10, 2020 0:33:21 GMT -5
I have no idea what observes, just that there is observation, and also, that people tend to overlook their tendencies. During my day I overlook it, but during my deliberate meditation time I notice much more and am aware of very subtle nuances. I think we have to make categories of will to talk about this subject. First category is 'intent' defined as the ability to direct and focus attention to see it 'as it is'. Second category is 'volition' which is using will power to make it 'as you want it to be'. The former is very obvious because if you determine to feel your breath, you will notice some sort of feeling there. The latter is a bit more complicated, and I won't go into the details now, but mindfulness is essentially the cessation of volition. This is choiceless in the sense that you see it 'as it is' without doing anything to make it 'as you want it to be'.
But why do you make the distinction between "during my day" and "deliberate meditation time"? Why not carry the observation more into "during my day"? And: Have you not noticed an inherent contradiction in the words used to describe ~your process~? You have written about seeing the mind having a tendency to wander off thinking this and that (my words). There is no control here. But then you call trying to control what happens, volition. This is what's imaginary, there is no volition in this sense. A something trying to control here, control the thinking, mind trying to control itself or self trying to control the mind, is all imaginary. So why do you call it volition when you also seem to know ATST that it all just happens? Don't you see the contradiction? All one can do is observe what's happening, one cannot control what's happening, can't control thoughts, feelings or bodily actions. But you absolutely know you can observe. You demonstrate you know you can observe. It's obvious from your posts over the years that you can observe. And that's what's volitional (because you know you can do it), the observing. You can in a sense call it choiceless, because ego/small s self is not involved in the observing, it is not what observes. But sdp prefers to call it volitional precisely because ego/small s self is not involved in the seeing. Ego/small s self is what is seen. (And this is for zd. Is it not apparent that the universe involves a degrading process of entropy? (Almost) all things left alone degrade, disintegrate, lose order, decrease in capability to do work. Life is the only something in the universe which counters this increasing move to increasing negative entropy, that is, left alone, things fall apart. But scientists cannot explain life. Scientists cannot make life. Life only comes from life. So life is not a bottom up phenomenon. Life originates from Top down. But the Top is invisible, unmanifest. So there is not one movement of the Whole. There are two movements. To scientists, physicists, the universe as a whole always moves toward increasing negative entropy. Ask any physicist, the one incontrovertible law in the universe is the second law of thermodynamics, entropy always increases. But the other movement is life, life decreases entropy (in its immediate environment, the total entropy of the universe always increases). The essence of the meaning of increasing entropy is the fact that it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine. In any mechanical device, you can't get more energy out of it that you put in, you can't even break even. So the very purpose of the whole universe, is to make life possible, manifest life. And the manifest life arises out of the invisible unmanifest life, which invisibly permeates the whole. These two flows are the yin and the yang of the universe. The human body is as close as one can come to a perpetual motion machine). During the day is a lot of distractions. Dedicated meditation time is without distractions.
When ego is seen, what is it precisely that you see?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 10, 2020 9:44:26 GMT -5
But why do you make the distinction between "during my day" and "deliberate meditation time"? Why not carry the observation more into "during my day"? And: Have you not noticed an inherent contradiction in the words used to describe ~your process~? You have written about seeing the mind having a tendency to wander off thinking this and that (my words). There is no control here. But then you call trying to control what happens, volition. This is what's imaginary, there is no volition in this sense. A something trying to control here, control the thinking, mind trying to control itself or self trying to control the mind, is all imaginary. So why do you call it volition when you also seem to know ATST that it all just happens? Don't you see the contradiction? All one can do is observe what's happening, one cannot control what's happening, can't control thoughts, feelings or bodily actions. But you absolutely know you can observe. You demonstrate you know you can observe. It's obvious from your posts over the years that you can observe. And that's what's volitional (because you know you can do it), the observing. You can in a sense call it choiceless, because ego/small s self is not involved in the observing, it is not what observes. But sdp prefers to call it volitional precisely because ego/small s self is not involved in the seeing. Ego/small s self is what is seen. (And this is for zd. Is it not apparent that the universe involves a degrading process of entropy? (Almost) all things left alone degrade, disintegrate, lose order, decrease in capability to do work. Life is the only something in the universe which counters this increasing move to increasing negative entropy, that is, left alone, things fall apart. But scientists cannot explain life. Scientists cannot make life. Life only comes from life. So life is not a bottom up phenomenon. Life originates from Top down. But the Top is invisible, unmanifest. So there is not one movement of the Whole. There are two movements. To scientists, physicists, the universe as a whole always moves toward increasing negative entropy. Ask any physicist, the one incontrovertible law in the universe is the second law of thermodynamics, entropy always increases. But the other movement is life, life decreases entropy (in its immediate environment, the total entropy of the universe always increases). The essence of the meaning of increasing entropy is the fact that it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine. In any mechanical device, you can't get more energy out of it that you put in, you can't even break even. So the very purpose of the whole universe, is to make life possible, manifest life. And the manifest life arises out of the invisible unmanifest life, which invisibly permeates the whole. These two flows are the yin and the yang of the universe. The human body is as close as one can come to a perpetual motion machine). During the day is a lot of distractions. Dedicated meditation time is without distractions. When ego is seen, what is it precisely that you see?
Thoughts, feelings and actions, you can also begin seeing the reasons behind the thoughts, feelings and actions, the motives. There are surprises, as in, Oh s**t. There are layers of ego, we usually just know the surface. But then too we also miss surface stuff, contradictions. And we don't notice we might act one way around one person or a group of people and then act another way with other people. Now, sometimes we deliberately 'grease the wheels', we know how to be dishonest with a certain person, maybe even a wife or husband, as we know they would not accept what we are really feeling or thinking. But then again we can fool ourselves. So there really is a kind of blindness, or ignorance, in ego, compartmentalization. So just objectively observing is not easy. A lot of what we think is observing is ego doing the watching, one framework of thoughts watching another framework of thoughts. This is pretty useless. Real observing has a continuity, this is where the Oh s**t comes in, seeing the contradictions. All this is why there is a real need to observe ~in real time~, in the middle of the distractions. If we *think back* and reflect, on a later basis, ego can rewrite history, edit what really took place.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 10, 2020 10:17:07 GMT -5
(And this is for zd. Is it not apparent that the universe involves a degrading process of entropy? (Almost) all things left alone degrade, disintegrate, lose order, decrease in capability to do work. Life is the only something in the universe which counters this increasing move to increasing negative entropy, that is, left alone, things fall apart. But scientists cannot explain life. Scientists cannot make life. Life only comes from life. So life is not a bottom up phenomenon. Life originates from Top down. But the Top is invisible, unmanifest. So there is not one movement of the Whole. There are two movements. To scientists, physicists, the universe as a whole always moves toward increasing negative entropy. Ask any physicist, the one incontrovertible law in the universe is the second law of thermodynamics, entropy always increases. But the other movement is life, life decreases entropy (in its immediate environment, the total entropy of the universe always increases). The essence of the meaning of increasing entropy is the fact that it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine. In any mechanical device, you can't get more energy out of it that you put in, you can't even break even. So the very purpose of the whole universe, is to make life possible, manifest life. And the manifest life arises out of the invisible unmanifest life, which invisibly permeates the whole. These two flows are the yin and the yang of the universe. The human body is as close as one can come to a perpetual motion machine). This has little meaning for me because even though I understand the scientific models the truth lies beyond the intellect. I suppose that in order to grok oneness one must have a direct apprehension of oneness. Afterwards, the idea of twoness disappears completely. With that kind of seeing, manifest/unmanifest, inside/outside, increasing entropy/decreasing entropy, yin/yang, and all other conceptual opposites collapse into a state of inseparable isness. As Gopal would say, "Everything moves as one." But the point is there has to be a differential for anything to happen. Differential means at least twoness. In Oneness there is no differential, there is Sameness, that's the Unmanifest. So the Unmanifest, manifested, formed differentialness. Water flows from higher to lower (a differential) because of gravity. You have your morning coffee. It moves from hot to less hot to cooler to cold, also a natural differential. All motors and engines work on this principle of differential. When there is equilibrium, nothing happens. The ancients who wrote the Upanishads understood this, describing the three gunas, Tamas, Rajas and Sattva.
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Post by zendancer on May 10, 2020 11:56:54 GMT -5
During the day is a lot of distractions. Dedicated meditation time is without distractions. When ego is seen, what is it precisely that you see?
Thoughts, feelings and actions, you can also begin seeing the reasons behind the thoughts, feelings and actions, the motives. There are surprises, as in, Oh s**t. There are layers of ego, we usually just know the surface. But then too we also miss surface stuff, contradictions. And we don't notice we might act one way around one person or a group of people and then act another way with other people. Now, sometimes we deliberately 'grease the wheels', we know how to be dishonest with a certain person, maybe even a wife or husband, as we know they would not accept what we are really feeling or thinking. But then again we can fool ourselves. So there really is a kind of blindness, or ignorance, in ego, compartmentalization. So just objectively observing is not easy. A lot of what we think is observing is ego doing the watching, one framework of thoughts watching another framework of thoughts. This is pretty useless. Real observing has a continuity, this is where the Oh s**t comes in, seeing the contradictions. All this is why there is a real need to observe ~in real time~, in the middle of the distractions. If we *think back* and reflect, on a later basis, ego can rewrite history, edit what really took place. So, ego is "thoughts, feelings, actions......reasons behind thoughts.... motives?" Can anyone see a reason or a motive, or are those things imagined? Is the small self seen, or is it that thoughts about small self are seen? If there are no thoughts, what is seen?
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Post by zendancer on May 10, 2020 12:09:43 GMT -5
This has little meaning for me because even though I understand the scientific models the truth lies beyond the intellect. I suppose that in order to grok oneness one must have a direct apprehension of oneness. Afterwards, the idea of twoness disappears completely. With that kind of seeing, manifest/unmanifest, inside/outside, increasing entropy/decreasing entropy, yin/yang, and all other conceptual opposites collapse into a state of inseparable isness. As Gopal would say, "Everything moves as one." But the point is there has to be a differential for anything to happen. Differential means at least twoness. In Oneness there is no differential, there is Sameness, that's the Unmanifest. So the Unmanifest, manifested, formed differentialness. Water flows from higher to lower (a differential) because of gravity. You have your morning coffee. It moves from hot to less hot to cooler to cold, also a natural differential. All motors and engines work on this principle of differential. When there is equilibrium, nothing happens. The ancients who wrote the Upanishads understood this, describing the three gunas, Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. "Differential" is a concept, as are "oneness" and "twoness." The word "oneness" is simply a pointer at the truth underlying all imaginative interpretations about what's going on. I advise ATA-T. Why? Because when people become sufficiently free of mind talk to discover what we are and what's going on, it totally changes their understanding. After making those discoveries, mind talk is not a problem because one then understands the relationship of mind talk to what is seen, and one also understands that the source of mind talk (as well as everything else) is THIS. THIS is the only reality, and THIS is the only thingless thing that can realize THIS.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 11, 2020 8:41:00 GMT -5
Thoughts, feelings and actions, you can also begin seeing the reasons behind the thoughts, feelings and actions, the motives. There are surprises, as in, Oh s**t. There are layers of ego, we usually just know the surface. But then too we also miss surface stuff, contradictions. And we don't notice we might act one way around one person or a group of people and then act another way with other people. Now, sometimes we deliberately 'grease the wheels', we know how to be dishonest with a certain person, maybe even a wife or husband, as we know they would not accept what we are really feeling or thinking. But then again we can fool ourselves. So there really is a kind of blindness, or ignorance, in ego, compartmentalization. So just objectively observing is not easy. A lot of what we think is observing is ego doing the watching, one framework of thoughts watching another framework of thoughts. This is pretty useless. Real observing has a continuity, this is where the Oh s**t comes in, seeing the contradictions. All this is why there is a real need to observe ~in real time~, in the middle of the distractions. If we *think back* and reflect, on a later basis, ego can rewrite history, edit what really took place. So, ego is "thoughts, feelings, actions......reasons behind thoughts.... motives?" Can anyone see a reason or a motive, or are those things imagined? Is the small self seen, or is it that thoughts about small self are seen? If there are no thoughts, what is seen? Yes, thoughts, feeling and learned bodily actions constitute ego, reasons and motives dip down into the subconscious, basically the programming. It's not easy, but reasons and motives can be seen. From time to time I can see reasons popping up going back at least to my teen years. Thoughts are not easy to be seen. Most of what we think is observation is just one set of thoughts looking at another set of thoughts, so distortion is already present. "Thoughts about the small self" are just thoughts about thoughts, feelings and actions. Look at it this way, say there is an office with 12 cubicles and 12 people working in the cubicles, on ground level. You are the company owner. You want to check on workers. You stand in the hall, you can't really see anything. You walk in one cubicle, see Tom, D!ck, Harry or Mary working. But words gets around, the boss is here. So everybody gets to work, they could have been goofing off. It's impossible to see what's going on. But if there is a second floor with an open sightline to all the cubicles of the first floor, with a two-way mirrored ceiling, the boss can observe what going on without distortion. Now this is just an analogy, but the whole can be seen. The cubicles and the workers represent you thoughts feelings and actions. It there are no thoughts (or feelings or actions), there is still the body, and whatever enters through the senses, to be seen. If no thoughts or feelings or actions are activated, this is a good thing.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 11, 2020 9:01:24 GMT -5
But the point is there has to be a differential for anything to happen. Differential means at least twoness. In Oneness there is no differential, there is Sameness, that's the Unmanifest. So the Unmanifest, manifested, formed differentialness. Water flows from higher to lower (a differential) because of gravity. You have your morning coffee. It moves from hot to less hot to cooler to cold, also a natural differential. All motors and engines work on this principle of differential. When there is equilibrium, nothing happens. The ancients who wrote the Upanishads understood this, describing the three gunas, Tamas, Rajas and Sattva. "Differential" is a concept, as are "oneness" and "twoness." The word "oneness" is simply a pointer at the truth underlying all imaginative interpretations about what's going on. I advise ATA-T. Why? Because when people become sufficiently free of mind talk to discover what we are and what's going on, it totally changes their understanding. After making those discoveries, mind talk is not a problem because one then understands the relationship of mind talk to what is seen, and one also understands that the source of mind talk (as well as everything else) is THIS. THIS is the only reality, and THIS is the only thingless thing that can realize THIS. I was just pointing out how the visible world operates. You can't build a house without either you or your subs operating from the principles of how the universe works. Especially, no plumbing, no electricity, no AC, no oven, no range, no refrigerator. Until I was five years old we had an outhouse, I can remember my father digging the hole for it. My father drew the plans for our second house, the one with a bathroom, two in fact. Even the Tao Te Ching, over 2,500 years old says, One became two, and two became three (equaling the three gunas), and the three became the ten thousand things (everything else). All this does not mean anything happens outside Oneness. If there were only Oneness, there would be no manifest world. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by zendancer on May 11, 2020 11:25:16 GMT -5
"Differential" is a concept, as are "oneness" and "twoness." The word "oneness" is simply a pointer at the truth underlying all imaginative interpretations about what's going on. I advise ATA-T. Why? Because when people become sufficiently free of mind talk to discover what we are and what's going on, it totally changes their understanding. After making those discoveries, mind talk is not a problem because one then understands the relationship of mind talk to what is seen, and one also understands that the source of mind talk (as well as everything else) is THIS. THIS is the only reality, and THIS is the only thingless thing that can realize THIS. If there were only Oneness, there would be no manifest world. That's all I'm saying. And I'm saying that there is only Oneness, and it includes what we call "the manifest world."
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 11, 2020 18:51:55 GMT -5
If there were only Oneness, there would be no manifest world. That's all I'm saying. And I'm saying that there is only Oneness, and it includes what we call "the manifest world." OK, as long as we agree there is a manifest world....but it still looks like you have qualified it by " ".
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