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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 27, 2020 19:23:45 GMT -5
For one thing, think back to the last time you were in a waiting room or airport. CNN is everywhere. Dunkin’ Donuts, Starbucks, Chinese restaurants, local taverns, lots of different places. Crap loads of peeps are exposed to and influenced by CNN’s point of view of things on a daily basis. Someday I might talk about the power of suggestion - hypnosis - which I am fairly accomplished at. Perhaps I'm just particularly inured to constant exposure to consensus that I don't agree with. Perhaps.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 27, 2020 23:18:54 GMT -5
This may seem unrelated but I came across this interesting definition: Doesn't this definition apply to science as well? Funny! Yes. And it's also a darkly amusing philosophical/historical irony that the beliefs produced by science have stood the test of objective, skeptical inquiry, so they quite naturally form the basis of a new dogma. Even worse, the skeptical inquiry is open-ended, so by admitting that they don't know, a secular humanist can place hope in the possibility of future knowledge, ie: the mind of a perpetual seeker. The only scientist I read take this through to it's logical conclusion of an analysis between the relationship of the known and the unknown was Heisenberg. It's just one more example of the limitations of intellect being front and center and obvious for anyone with any commonsense who simply wants to look, and see. The main flaw I see in the scientific approach is the dogma of objectivity and an over-reliance on the intellect. And as long as you keep science and spirituality separate, there's little hope for science in the future, I think. Science can only describe, but not really explain, let alone give meaning. But meaning is essential for a healthy, thriving human being. That's why I think science shouldn't be the universal standard for everything. Science does have its place, but introducing scientific thinking into aspects of life where it doesn't belong, then you get things like behaviorism or transhumanism or a technocratic society - which essentially is devoid of any meaning and creates shallow, boring lives. I think there's going to be a revival of true spirituality, not in the pop-culture sense of the word, but in the original sense of the word.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 27, 2020 23:30:45 GMT -5
Doesn't this definition apply to science as well? Funny! My opinion... In practice, yes, because many "scientists" get egos about their profession, their education, etc., and there is politics and group-think in science and academia. But on another level, no. Ideally, science is about finding truth through experiment. You should be able to practice it without believing much of anything. It's still a belief system in the end, even on an ideal level. Even LOA is just a belief system. It's all just different mental overlays over THIS. These overlays may be useful in daily life, but ultimately, it all belongs into the realm of relative truths. And there are many such truths, some only work for one specific context (like classical mechanics), some for larger contexts (like quantum mechanics) and some even seem to work in all contexts (like LOA). But in the end, none of these mental overlays bring you any closer to the Truth in the absolute sense of the word. And technically, there's no absolute Truth that can be expressed in any meaningful way anyway. That's why we usually resort to pointers and why I prefer truthin' over Truth.
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Post by Reefs on Mar 28, 2020 0:24:46 GMT -5
Funny though, how billions are being made to become still. The whole energy is peaceful where I'm at. The people that I see are appropriate and exhibit no fear. Hmm, there's fear where I am in the UK. You see it in hunched shoulders of people shuffling round the shops, giving worried looks to the empty aisles. They seem to think that keeping your distance from someone means you can't look or smile at them. They've obviously not been on any silent retreats! It's like there's a deliberate tapping into a national memory of WWII - we're being told we're plucky Brits pulling together to "get through it". Even the public announcements with sound bites of Boris Johnson are put through some filter to make them echoey, crackly low quality like they're a radio broadcast from 75 years ago. At least the weather is good. On the Joe Public level of reality (mainstream media) I can understand why people buy into the 24/7 fear porn, because they've been most likely caught off guard. But as usual, appearances can be deceiving. And things usually look extra bleak right before the turnaround. I can tell you though that this crisis may not actually be what it seems to be at the moment and that there are plans underway in the background for a life after the crisis, which may disappear as suddenly as it appeared on our radar. So, I'd suggest to everyone to prepare for a couple of rough weeks, if you can still move around freely do some shopping (just some essentials), turn off the TV and spend some quality time with your family instead. And if you feel that must follow the news, then don't follow the news ticker all day, set a specific time once or twice a day for news consumption, that will be enough. If you are living in the US, I'd suggest you follow the daily White House briefings (try to read a bit between the lines, huge truth bombs dropped there every day, but it takes some effort to connect the dots) and your local news (for specific news/instructions affecting you personally in your area, like stores closed etc.). If you are not living in the US, I'd suggest the same, White House briefings and local news. Take care!
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2020 7:22:21 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm just particularly inured to constant exposure to consensus that I don't agree with. Perhaps. (** muttley snicker **)
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2020 8:11:50 GMT -5
Yes. And it's also a darkly amusing philosophical/historical irony that the beliefs produced by science have stood the test of objective, skeptical inquiry, so they quite naturally form the basis of a new dogma. Even worse, the skeptical inquiry is open-ended, so by admitting that they don't know, a secular humanist can place hope in the possibility of future knowledge, ie: the mind of a perpetual seeker. The only scientist I read take this through to it's logical conclusion of an analysis between the relationship of the known and the unknown was Heisenberg. It's just one more example of the limitations of intellect being front and center and obvious for anyone with any commonsense who simply wants to look, and see. The main flaw I see in the scientific approach is the dogma of objectivity and an over-reliance on the intellect. And as long as you keep science and spirituality separate, there's little hope for science in the future, I think. Science can only describe, but not really explain, let alone give meaning. But meaning is essential for a healthy, thriving human being. That's why I think science shouldn't be the universal standard for everything. Science does have its place, but introducing scientific thinking into aspects of life where it doesn't belong, then you get things like behaviorism or transhumanism or a technocratic society - which essentially is devoid of any meaning and creates shallow, boring lives. I think there's going to be a revival of true spirituality, not in the pop-culture sense of the word, but in the original sense of the word. "fear porn". The thing about science is that every question it answers will always lead to several new avenues of inquiry. Ultimately, yes, it can't answer the existential question, but this discovery isn't anything new under the sun, just perhaps a bit better disseminated as time goes on. The scientific method as an institutional basis and a societal influence is here to stay, but I do agree that we might be seeing a sort of turning point in our lifetimes that marks a cultural maturation with regard to conditioned attitudes about that. One of the best examples of science fails is something like this .. the guy is sometimes fun and informative to watch, and has a big 'ole innocent heart. But the blunder in that case is as epic as it is comedic, and I think illustrates your point which I would express this way: love simply defies facts and will always survive analysis, despite the best efforts of intellect - unwitting and otherwise - to achieve it's demise. I don't know what a revival of true spirituality would look like but I do know, that while: () on one hand panic actually does have a use as an instinctual response, () but on the other, cognitive distortion is the seed of unjustified panic, and () unjustified panic is a very potent and often-used Machiavellian tool. In this case, the scientific method definitely has a place in undoing what it might have been misused for, or, on the other hand sorting out whether it was used properly in the first instance. What's being reported as having happened in Italy is quite disturbing, and there's no reasonable explanation for it that doesn't validate the more alarmist spectrum of interpretation. Closer to home, Elmhurst hospital in Queens has been described as the "epicenter of the epicenter" by the Mayor of NYC. So, here are some numbers and facts: this is an institution that served, on average, 311 emergency patients and 1300 other outpatients, discharging 60 in-patients per day in 2015. Here are some high-profile current predictions (citing this) for illness, patient demand-spike and death for New York at what's anticipated to be the spike of the "curve" everyone want's to "flatten". The big picture on the topic is that there were, on average 425 deaths per day, statewide, in 2017. I don't know what will happen, but I pray for all those effected and am curious as to how the numbers will actually play out, and I would suggest that anyone feeling particularly interested or foreboding during these times to keep an eye on the facts and numbers applicable to where you live.
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2020 8:40:02 GMT -5
Here's something that's completely unscientific: there's speculation at this point that "patient zero" in Wuhan was a shrimp merchant, and Louisiana - which, as I recall, has a significant shrimping industry - has, to date, a disproportionate death rate from the virus. Almost certainly just a coincidence of the moment, but perhaps defer the shrimp cocktail for a few months.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 28, 2020 11:28:58 GMT -5
The main flaw I see in the scientific approach is the dogma of objectivity and an over-reliance on the intellect. And as long as you keep science and spirituality separate, there's little hope for science in the future, I think. Science can only describe, but not really explain, let alone give meaning. But meaning is essential for a healthy, thriving human being. That's why I think science shouldn't be the universal standard for everything. Science does have its place, but introducing scientific thinking into aspects of life where it doesn't belong, then you get things like behaviorism or transhumanism or a technocratic society - which essentially is devoid of any meaning and creates shallow, boring lives. I think there's going to be a revival of true spirituality, not in the pop-culture sense of the word, but in the original sense of the word. "fear porn". The thing about science is that every question it answers will always lead to several new avenues of inquiry. Ultimately, yes, it can't answer the existential question, but this discovery isn't anything new under the sun, just perhaps a bit better disseminated as time goes on. The scientific method as an institutional basis and a societal influence is here to stay, but I do agree that we might be seeing a sort of turning point in our lifetimes that marks a cultural maturation with regard to conditioned attitudes about that. One of the best examples of science fails is something like this .. the guy is sometimes fun and informative to watch, and has a big 'ole innocent heart. But the blunder in that case is as epic as it is comedic, and I think illustrates your point which I would express this way: love simply defies facts and will always survive analysis, despite the best efforts of intellect - unwitting and otherwise - to achieve it's demise. I don't know what a revival of true spirituality would look like but I do know, that while: () on one hand panic actually does have a use as an instinctual response, () but on the other, cognitive distortion is the seed of unjustified panic, and () unjustified panic is a very potent and often-used Machiavellian tool. In this case, the scientific method definitely has a place in undoing what it might have been misused for, or, on the other hand sorting out whether it was used properly in the first instance. What's being reported as having happened in Italy is quite disturbing, and there's no reasonable explanation for it that doesn't validate the more alarmist spectrum of interpretation. Closer to home, Elmhurst hospital in Queens has been described as the "epicenter of the epicenter" by the Mayor of NYC. So, here are some numbers and facts: this is an institution that served, on average, 311 emergency patients and 1300 other outpatients, discharging 60 in-patients per day in 2015. Here are some high-profile current predictions (citing this) for illness, patient demand-spike and death for New York at what's anticipated to be the spike of the "curve" everyone want's to "flatten". The big picture on the topic is that there were, on average 425 deaths per day, statewide, in 2017. I don't know what will happen, but I pray for all those effected and am curious as to how the numbers will actually play out, and I would suggest that anyone feeling particularly interested or foreboding during these times to keep an eye on the facts and numbers applicable to where you live. Good info. In the southern middle part of the USA people are not taking this very seriously judging by what I've encountered. People have the mistaken sense that if other people are friends, relatives, or grandchildren the chances of catching the bug are non-existent. Reports from all over the world indicate that that's an erroneous idea. We planned to meet two friends on an outside patio for drinks and stay relatively far apart and then discovered that they were inviting their grandchildren and another friend to join us. We decided that the meeting was not such a good idea after all.
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Post by laughter on Mar 28, 2020 13:24:50 GMT -5
"fear porn". The thing about science is that every question it answers will always lead to several new avenues of inquiry. Ultimately, yes, it can't answer the existential question, but this discovery isn't anything new under the sun, just perhaps a bit better disseminated as time goes on. The scientific method as an institutional basis and a societal influence is here to stay, but I do agree that we might be seeing a sort of turning point in our lifetimes that marks a cultural maturation with regard to conditioned attitudes about that. One of the best examples of science fails is something like this .. the guy is sometimes fun and informative to watch, and has a big 'ole innocent heart. But the blunder in that case is as epic as it is comedic, and I think illustrates your point which I would express this way: love simply defies facts and will always survive analysis, despite the best efforts of intellect - unwitting and otherwise - to achieve it's demise. I don't know what a revival of true spirituality would look like but I do know, that while: () on one hand panic actually does have a use as an instinctual response, () but on the other, cognitive distortion is the seed of unjustified panic, and () unjustified panic is a very potent and often-used Machiavellian tool. In this case, the scientific method definitely has a place in undoing what it might have been misused for, or, on the other hand sorting out whether it was used properly in the first instance. What's being reported as having happened in Italy is quite disturbing, and there's no reasonable explanation for it that doesn't validate the more alarmist spectrum of interpretation. Closer to home, Elmhurst hospital in Queens has been described as the "epicenter of the epicenter" by the Mayor of NYC. So, here are some numbers and facts: this is an institution that served, on average, 311 emergency patients and 1300 other outpatients, discharging 60 in-patients per day in 2015. Here are some high-profile current predictions (citing this) for illness, patient demand-spike and death for New York at what's anticipated to be the spike of the "curve" everyone want's to "flatten". The big picture on the topic is that there were, on average 425 deaths per day, statewide, in 2017. I don't know what will happen, but I pray for all those effected and am curious as to how the numbers will actually play out, and I would suggest that anyone feeling particularly interested or foreboding during these times to keep an eye on the facts and numbers applicable to where you live. Good info. In the southern middle part of the USA people are not taking this very seriously judging by what I've encountered. People have the mistaken sense that if other people are friends, relatives, or grandchildren the chances of catching the bug are non-existent. Reports from all over the world indicate that that's an erroneous idea. We planned to meet two friends on an outside patio for drinks and stay relatively far apart and then discovered that they were inviting their grandchildren and another friend to join us. We decided that the meeting was not such a good idea after all. Definitely better safe than sorry these days. As much as I'm hoping that the worst of the predictions won't transpire it does seem clear that what's happening in NYC will fan out from there. Hopefully the weather will start to work in our favor as time goes on and the interior/countryside sees less of a spread in this cycle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 18:08:39 GMT -5
[...] But on another level, no. Ideally, science is about finding truth through experiment. You should be able to practice it without believing much of anything. It's still a belief system in the end, even on an ideal level. Even LOA is just a belief system. It's all just different mental overlays over THIS. These overlays may be useful in daily life, but ultimately, it all belongs into the realm of relative truths. And there are many such truths, some only work for one specific context (like classical mechanics), some for larger contexts (like quantum mechanics) and some even seem to work in all contexts (like LOA). But in the end, none of these mental overlays bring you any closer to the Truth in the absolute sense of the word. And technically, there's no absolute Truth that can be expressed in any meaningful way anyway. That's why we usually resort to pointers and why I prefer truthin' over Truth. I may kind of see what you're saying, but I'd like to argue a bit Take for example a simple scientific idea, or "theory" – objects dropped at about sea level fall with acceleration of 9.8 m/s 2. You can test it, experience it, and measure it for yourself. It’s not one of more inspiring ideas, but it’s a good example. Where is the belief in that? It seems to be just a reporting of perceptions, in the language of mathematics. You don't have to construct beliefs about a material world, or your place in it, etc.
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 28, 2020 18:30:27 GMT -5
It seems to be just a reporting of perceptions, in the language of mathematics. The minute you employ words, mental or otherwise, you are in the realm of ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 9:23:36 GMT -5
I have been following the data on this closely. I was particularly interested in countries that are doing comprehensive testing. It seemed mortality rates in SK and Germany were far lower than what Italy, Spain even China reported. But these have crept steadily upward in those two countries nearing 2% in SK and approaching 1% in Germany. I've been reading about 1918 pandemic as well. That pandemic had about a 1% mortality rate. 1/3 of the USA was infected, 50,000,000 an estimated 500,000 died or around 1%.
Given the mortality rate of this disease, I hope and believe we can keep the infection rate lower than the 1918 pandemic. Good luck to all of you and stay safe.
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Post by laughter on Mar 29, 2020 10:59:34 GMT -5
It's still a belief system in the end, even on an ideal level. Even LOA is just a belief system. It's all just different mental overlays over THIS. These overlays may be useful in daily life, but ultimately, it all belongs into the realm of relative truths. And there are many such truths, some only work for one specific context (like classical mechanics), some for larger contexts (like quantum mechanics) and some even seem to work in all contexts (like LOA). But in the end, none of these mental overlays bring you any closer to the Truth in the absolute sense of the word. And technically, there's no absolute Truth that can be expressed in any meaningful way anyway. That's why we usually resort to pointers and why I prefer truthin' over Truth. I may kind of see what you're saying, but I'd like to argue a bit Take for example a simple scientific idea, or "theory" – objects dropped at about sea level fall with acceleration of 9.8 m/s 2. You can test it, experience it, and measure it for yourself. It’s not one of more inspiring ideas, but it’s a good example. Where is the belief in that? It seems to be just a reporting of perceptions, in the language of mathematics. You don't have to construct beliefs about a material world, or your place in it, etc. The belief is that you take the statement to be true. Recognizing the movement of mind that's gives rise to the belief doesn't have to be about whether the ideas are true or false. In this case, it's the underlying assumptions that offer opportunity for self-inquiry. Those assumptions are actually incredibly subtle, which is quite ironic given their influence, and are like talking to a fish about water.
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Post by laughter on Mar 29, 2020 11:11:05 GMT -5
I have been following the data on this closely. I was particularly interested in countries that are doing comprehensive testing. It seemed mortality rates in SK and Germany were far lower than what Italy, Spain even China reported. But these have crept steadily upward in those two countries nearing 2% in SK and approaching 1% in Germany. I've been reading about 1918 pandemic as well. That pandemic had about a 1% mortality rate. 1/3 of the USA was infected, 50,000,000 an estimated 500,000 died or around 1%. Given the mortality rate of this disease, I hope and believe we can keep the infection rate lower than the 1918 pandemic. Good luck to all of you and stay safe. The number of deaths being reported from the virus in NYS is now about 50% of the avg daily count from all causes in 2017. On the other hand, there was no follow-up on the initial reports of overcrowding at the hospitals in Queens. The reports are that the conversion of the Javits center is complete, and whether or not that's seeing any use is something that anyone can see for themselves. Gov. Cuomo has announced that patients from the city and the metro area will eventually be transferred to the upstate counties once the city facilities are at capacity, so that's another milestone that will be widely reported, at least locally. Until then, I'd still be curious to know what the total ongoing daily death total is in the state to compare it with the norm.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 11:21:47 GMT -5
I have been following the data on this closely. I was particularly interested in countries that are doing comprehensive testing. It seemed mortality rates in SK and Germany were far lower than what Italy, Spain even China reported. But these have crept steadily upward in those two countries nearing 2% in SK and approaching 1% in Germany. I've been reading about 1918 pandemic as well. That pandemic had about a 1% mortality rate. 1/3 of the USA was infected, 50,000,000 an estimated 500,000 died or around 1%. Given the mortality rate of this disease, I hope and believe we can keep the infection rate lower than the 1918 pandemic. Good luck to all of you and stay safe. The number of deaths being reported from the virus in NYS is now about 50% of the avg daily count from all causes in 2017. On the other hand, there was no follow-up on the initial reports of overcrowding at the hospitals in Queens. The reports are that the conversion of the Javits center is complete, and whether or not that's seeing any use is something that anyone can see for themselves. Gov. Cuomo has announced that patients from the city and the metro area will eventually be transferred to the upstate counties once the city facilities are at capacity, so that's another milestone that will be widely reported, at least locally. Until then, I'd still be curious to know what the total ongoing daily death total is in the state to compare it with the norm. It seems like it's growing fast in US now.
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