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Post by satchitananda on Nov 26, 2019 1:07:06 GMT -5
How can you be conscious of how your mind functions unconsciously? What does that even mean and what possible use could it be? No, the goal is to go back to the source and know that you are the source and that you are unbounded and unlimited. That is what it is to be fully awake. To rest in the natural state is the end of suffering. You can put your psychoanalytical toys away. You can become conscious of your mind, or more pointedly in this case, the person you appear as, by simply noticing it from the formless dimension. As an example, every time someone experiences rejection, they may simultaneously desire to meditate as a means of avoiding feeling rejected. The feeling of rejection isn’t conscious, but the need to get away from the feeling dominates the behavior. Making the need to get away from the feeling, conscious (meaning that people can actually avoid feelings without realizing that’s what they’re doing) can allow expression of the feeling, such that the need to escape no longer arises. What a great benefit! Hopefully that answers your question Yes, that kind of psychological approach can provide relief in some cases, but it has nothing to do with awakening to the Self. It has absolutely nothing to do with the goal of spirituality and spiritual practice.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 26, 2019 1:09:16 GMT -5
I mean, not being interested in your own mind can often translate into interested in staying within personality addictions and identification. While you may not be the machine, the machine is an expression of your very core. Meaning, you aren’t not the machine either, depending on what framework we’re in. Conscious conditioning functions more efficiently, so not being interested in conditioning and most pointedly how one remains unconscious is actually a form of mental illness. It’s not all good, unless headless mothers is good. In fact, it’s mostly bad. Sure I understand how the machine, to put it very broadly: reflects an "inner state". Now, I'm not saying that people suffering from these sorts of addictions you describe don't hide from this as you say, by remaining disinterested in what's going on with their own mind. But, conversely, not everyone who's disinterested in the machine is in this situation. Certainly, people denying they have a mind or an ego or attaching to an idea of infinity have to play that kind of game, but not everyone pointing to the unbounded is a player, and I know you understand the existential truth pointed to by nonduality. Personally, I'm interested in these processes you write about and how they spin out both before and after realizing that truth, but I can understand how someone else might not be. There can be as many reasons for that disinterest as there are people, and I can't disagree with the notion that any improvements to the person aren't the point of the existential truth. While these improvements might be rather dramatic, and while it's deep unconsciousness that is the relative cause of deep suffering, there's a .. bigger picture. But, to be clear, as well as sharing your interest in the topic of becoming conscious, I'd opine that the process can certainly continue after existential seeking is over. Yeah, I mean, becoming conscious happens on its own, but the machine can be programmed to provide less resistance to the process. The way the enlightened facade is programmed, something like becoming conscious can be demonized as a sign of weakness, of being unenlightened, and so this type of writing is going to run in stark contrast to that type of self delusion. I remember the NYT called Tolle mumbo jumbo. I consider some of this thread a continuation on his stellar work on ego and breaking free. Some people don’t want to break free, and that’s ok.
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Post by lopezcabellero on Nov 26, 2019 1:10:26 GMT -5
You can become conscious of your mind, or more pointedly in this case, the person you appear as, by simply noticing it from the formless dimension. As an example, every time someone experiences rejection, they may simultaneously desire to meditate as a means of avoiding feeling rejected. The feeling of rejection isn’t conscious, but the need to get away from the feeling dominates the behavior. Making the need to get away from the feeling, conscious (meaning that people can actually avoid feelings without realizing that’s what they’re doing) can allow expression of the feeling, such that the need to escape no longer arises. What a great benefit! Hopefully that answers your question Yes, that kind of psychological approach can provide relief in some cases, but it has nothing to do with awakening to the Self. It has absolutely nothing to do with the goal of spirituality and spiritual practice. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
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Post by tenka on Nov 26, 2019 2:44:19 GMT -5
Hey ZD. So, from what I remember, your take is that waking up essentially entails shifting attention away from thinking, which is to say, away from the mind that could have an emotional complex, until it is realized that the mind one has shifted attention away from isn't 'you'. I bark at this. Let me ask you, father to father, do you believe it's possible that your behavior through the developmental years of your daughter's life could have caused even one emotional injury which she would need to gain consciousness of? Or is your position that regardless of the experience, if there is suffering, emotions need not be addressed, the consciousness beyond the emotions needs to be realized? As an example, let's say a man removes his conditional love from his daughter (through showing less appreciation, less affection, etc.) every time his daughter demonstrates romantic interest in a man. If that daughter grows to be 50, and is still single, and still looking for her father's approval every time she enters the courting stage, do you think she might need to gain consciousness of what true love is and how in error her father is/was? Or is it actually your opinion that shifting attention away from thought will bring her freedom from the error caused by her father's behavior, because that's a freedom from the world and her problem is a world problem? My point is her problem is a Daddy problem, and an untrue belief about what love is caused by Daddy. In this scenario, would you agree she could 'gain consciousness' of this untrue belief, and that in doing so, an emotion could release? The truth is beyond personal stories and also beyond ideas, beliefs, theories, and opinions. and beyond the ideas, beliefs, theories, and opinions that there is truth .. if there was never the notion of there being truth, then how would one know about the notion of it not being the truth?
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2019 3:11:11 GMT -5
Sure I understand how the machine, to put it very broadly: reflects an "inner state". Now, I'm not saying that people suffering from these sorts of addictions you describe don't hide from this as you say, by remaining disinterested in what's going on with their own mind. But, conversely, not everyone who's disinterested in the machine is in this situation. Certainly, people denying they have a mind or an ego or attaching to an idea of infinity have to play that kind of game, but not everyone pointing to the unbounded is a player, and I know you understand the existential truth pointed to by nonduality. Personally, I'm interested in these processes you write about and how they spin out both before and after realizing that truth, but I can understand how someone else might not be. There can be as many reasons for that disinterest as there are people, and I can't disagree with the notion that any improvements to the person aren't the point of the existential truth. While these improvements might be rather dramatic, and while it's deep unconsciousness that is the relative cause of deep suffering, there's a .. bigger picture. But, to be clear, as well as sharing your interest in the topic of becoming conscious, I'd opine that the process can certainly continue after existential seeking is over. Yeah, I mean, becoming conscious happens on its own, but the machine can be programmed to provide less resistance to the process. The way the enlightened facade is programmed, something like becoming conscious can be demonized as a sign of weakness, of being unenlightened, and so this type of writing is going to run in stark contrast to that type of self delusion. I remember the NYT called Tolle mumbo jumbo. I consider some of this thread a continuation on his stellar work on ego and breaking free. Some people don’t want to break free, and that’s ok. And, isn't that just the funniest irony? It reminds me of the idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn". For example: "You are not the body", or "You are not your mind". I see your point about this idea of an "enlightened facade". But I can give you a counter-example: Andrew Cohen. The method of his group was intense self-examination with the goal of dismantling the ego. There is an example of the false, "enlightened" facade that was founded on an idea of becoming conscious of the structure and content of mind. So, the ego can hijack any machinery. This isn't to take away from what I acknowledge with your reference to Tolle as an influence to your writing here. It comes through loud and clear to me, but that's partly because I already know where you're coming from in having read along over the years. Much of your presentation is quite nuanced, and far deeper than a stark, bottom-line neti-neti, but it does require applying the mind as tool-only to follow it closely. Obviously, the human psyche isn't a simple thing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 8:27:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean, becoming conscious happens on its own, but the machine can be programmed to provide less resistance to the process. The way the enlightened facade is programmed, something like becoming conscious can be demonized as a sign of weakness, of being unenlightened, and so this type of writing is going to run in stark contrast to that type of self delusion. I remember the NYT called Tolle mumbo jumbo. I consider some of this thread a continuation on his stellar work on ego and breaking free. Some people don’t want to break free, and that’s ok. And, isn't that just the funniest irony? It reminds me of the idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn". For example: "You are not the body", or "You are not your mind". I see your point about this idea of an "enlightened facade". But I can give you a counter-example: Andrew Cohen. The method of his group was intense self-examination with the goal of dismantling the ego. There is an example of the false, "enlightened" facade that was founded on an idea of becoming conscious of the structure and content of mind. So, the ego can hijack any machinery. This isn't to take away from what I acknowledge with your reference to Tolle as an influence to your writing here. It comes through loud and clear to me, but that's partly because I already know where you're coming from in having read along over the years. Much of your presentation is quite nuanced, and far deeper than a stark, bottom-line neti-neti, but it does require applying the mind as tool-only to follow it closely. Obviously, the human psyche isn't a simple thing. This reminds me of the passages in some of Ramana's dialogues concerning "progressive" paths and removing asanas, mental tendencies, or lc might call it conditioning, which also reminds me of scientology and engrams, but that's another story altogether. Ramana felt asana removal was critical to achieve freedom in this manner, from the progressive path. And being that I am on such a path, Soto, I tend to agree with most of what lc offers. Although he dismisses meditation's value in this regard which I don't care to debate. My understanding is that Ramana laid out the pointers, typically Self/self model, and some folks got it and were happily transformed. But others' suffering persisted and for them he offered atma vichara which most believe kind of circumvents the asana removal process or itself removes the asanas. I'm open to that notion, that there's a shorter path and accept that I might be struggling longer than need be. What I have trouble with, and this includes Tolle, is the notion that having heard the pointer for the 37,000th time on this site, on youtube, in Tolle's books, in squirrel and polar bear satsangs, the same people keep coming back to hear the same spiel. So somebody's drowning and you offer them a green skidoo and they can't get on the damn thing so you offer them a blue one. Seems the satsang, book thing justs keeps spinning round and round and someone's making bank. The honest ones will tell you they hope you don't come back. But most folks keep coming back, the wall's not getting any softer.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Nov 26, 2019 9:08:13 GMT -5
And, isn't that just the funniest irony? It reminds me of the idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn". For example: "You are not the body", or "You are not your mind". I see your point about this idea of an "enlightened facade". But I can give you a counter-example: Andrew Cohen. The method of his group was intense self-examination with the goal of dismantling the ego. There is an example of the false, "enlightened" facade that was founded on an idea of becoming conscious of the structure and content of mind. So, the ego can hijack any machinery. This isn't to take away from what I acknowledge with your reference to Tolle as an influence to your writing here. It comes through loud and clear to me, but that's partly because I already know where you're coming from in having read along over the years. Much of your presentation is quite nuanced, and far deeper than a stark, bottom-line neti-neti, but it does require applying the mind as tool-only to follow it closely. Obviously, the human psyche isn't a simple thing. This reminds me of the passages in some of Ramana's dialogues concerning "progressive" paths and removing asanas, mental tendencies, or lc might call it conditioning, which also reminds me of scientology and engrams, but that's another story altogether. Just a small thing -- it's vasanas, not asanas. Asanas are yogic postures
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2019 9:37:54 GMT -5
This reminds me of the passages in some of Ramana's dialogues concerning "progressive" paths and removing asanas, mental tendencies, or lc might call it conditioning, which also reminds me of scientology and engrams, but that's another story altogether. Just a small thing -- it's vasanas, not asanas. Asanas are yogic postures Thanks. Yess. Quite right. Old age.
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Post by roydop on Nov 26, 2019 10:28:20 GMT -5
Abide in/as thought free Awareness. That is all.
The more a system becomes complicated (increasing in thought) the further it is from Truth.
As soon as thought arises, immediately let it die; don't follow it. It's the straight and narrow path to be sure.
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2019 12:01:14 GMT -5
And, isn't that just the funniest irony? It reminds me of the idea of "using a thorn to remove a thorn". For example: "You are not the body", or "You are not your mind". I see your point about this idea of an "enlightened facade". But I can give you a counter-example: Andrew Cohen. The method of his group was intense self-examination with the goal of dismantling the ego. There is an example of the false, "enlightened" facade that was founded on an idea of becoming conscious of the structure and content of mind. So, the ego can hijack any machinery. This isn't to take away from what I acknowledge with your reference to Tolle as an influence to your writing here. It comes through loud and clear to me, but that's partly because I already know where you're coming from in having read along over the years. Much of your presentation is quite nuanced, and far deeper than a stark, bottom-line neti-neti, but it does require applying the mind as tool-only to follow it closely. Obviously, the human psyche isn't a simple thing. This reminds me of the passages in some of Ramana's dialogues concerning "progressive" paths and removing asanas, mental tendencies, or lc might call it conditioning, which also reminds me of scientology and engrams, but that's another story altogether. Ramana felt asana removal was critical to achieve freedom in this manner, from the progressive path. And being that I am on such a path, Soto, I tend to agree with most of what lc offers. Although he dismisses meditation's value in this regard which I don't care to debate. My understanding is that Ramana laid out the pointers, typically Self/self model, and some folks got it and were happily transformed. But others' suffering persisted and for them he offered atma vichara which most believe kind of circumvents the asana removal process or itself removes the asanas. I'm open to that notion, that there's a shorter path and accept that I might be struggling longer than need be. What I have trouble with, and this includes Tolle, is the notion that having heard the pointer for the 37,000th time on this site, on youtube, in Tolle's books, in squirrel and polar bear satsangs, the same people keep coming back to hear the same spiel. So somebody's drowning and you offer them a green skidoo and they can't get on the darn thing so you offer them a blue one. Seems the satsang, book thing justs keeps spinning round and round and someone's making bank. The honest ones will tell you they hope you don't come back. But most folks keep coming back, the wall's not getting any softer. Thanks for the insight about RM. As long as there are people peeps there will be laws, banks, satsangs, books, courts, taxes and jails. And even the day after each and every people-people all suddenly self-realize in the ascension, you'll probly still be able to find some of these fine bedrock institutions of our great society and their artifacts. Interesting point about how the honest one's say they don't want to see you again, but I'd say that depends to a certain extent on the specifics of what's on offer. The potential range of human experience is quite broad, and any given purveyor of wisdom might have the capacity to serve more than one market segment at a time. The dichotomy of sudden/gradual is something we can observe as a valid relative distinction, and arguing about the ultimate invalidity of one or the other is to chase a wisp of dream smoke. But, if someone is genuinely curious about that dichotomy, it's an opportunity. Every serious existential question is an opportunity. The only thing left to answer after having recognized an existential question is: how does one pursue it?
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2019 12:04:22 GMT -5
This reminds me of the passages in some of Ramana's dialogues concerning "progressive" paths and removing asanas, mental tendencies, or lc might call it conditioning, which also reminds me of scientology and engrams, but that's another story altogether. Just a small thing -- it's vasanas, not asanas. Asanas are yogic postures But who the heck is this Sad Hannah gal they keep callin' out, anyways??
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Post by laughter on Nov 26, 2019 12:08:46 GMT -5
Abide in/as thought free Awareness. That is all. The more a system becomes complicated (increasing in thought) the further it is from Truth. As soon as thought arises, immediately let it die; don't follow it. It's the straight and narrow path to be sure. As far as advice goes this is quite good, and probably in many cases - if not most, about as good as it gets. But, is everyone really ready for it? And on the flip-side, "at the end of that path", the capital of Complications is still quite clearly visible there, in the rear-view mirror. Some folks who've realized that truth might decide to pay a visit and even speak their lingo with the inhabitants while they're there.
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Post by roydop on Nov 27, 2019 8:34:45 GMT -5
Abide in/as thought free Awareness. That is all. The more a system becomes complicated (increasing in thought) the further it is from Truth. As soon as thought arises, immediately let it die; don't follow it. It's the straight and narrow path to be sure. As far as advice goes this is quite good, and probably in many cases - if not most, about as good as it gets. But, is everyone really ready for it? And on the flip-side, "at the end of that path", the capital of Complications is still quite clearly visible there, in the rear-view mirror. Some folks who've realized that truth might decide to pay a visit and even speak their lingo with the inhabitants while they're there. In my experience hardly anyone is ready for it, but as Nis said: "I'm not here to teach kindergarten"; there's enough of that going on already. The rest of what you said i don't understand. Care to elaborate? I do believe that there are great truths being revealed in this era, but along with that there is a MASSIVE movement toward deepening delusion. Truth and Reality are increasingly becoming twisted and distorted. Maya is creating a new reality and luring human consciousness into it.
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Post by zendancer on Nov 27, 2019 12:08:17 GMT -5
Abide in/as thought free Awareness. That is all. The more a system becomes complicated (increasing in thought) the further it is from Truth. As soon as thought arises, immediately let it die; don't follow it. It's the straight and narrow path to be sure. but would we have still gotten the DaVinci's, Shakespeare's and Edison's of the world? Sure. All kinds of creative stuff can be done without conscious thought. Conscious thought is highly over-rated.
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Post by roydop on Nov 27, 2019 13:44:35 GMT -5
Abide in/as thought free Awareness. That is all. The more a system becomes complicated (increasing in thought) the further it is from Truth. As soon as thought arises, immediately let it die; don't follow it. It's the straight and narrow path to be sure. but would we have still gotten the DaVinci's, Shakespeare's and Edison's of the world? From a hard-core nondualistic perspective all of the stuff those minds created is simply more Maya. Interesting yes, but fundamentally transient and unsubstantial.
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