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Post by Reefs on Mar 15, 2020 7:45:20 GMT -5
Currently watching this, and as Dalrymple puts it at one point "we're all responsible for our own health". Now, to the extent that someone is "spiritually bypassing" and redefining their problems, then sure, they're suffering and fooling themselves. But, discerning whether that's happening from the outside looking in is to base a judgment on camouflage. The dichotomy that I was referring to in terms of a dialog killer was the distinction between pain and suffering, not realization and alignment. That's tricky territory. Remember the saying, "as above so below, as within so without"? In that sense, I find Scott's tendency to categorically dismiss mind-reading as a kind of loserthink a bit too short-sighted. On the one hand, he is right, of course. A lot of mind-reading you encounter in everyday life is probably just a combination of projection and guesswork. But, on the other hand, you don't want to go so far as to argue for actual separation either, right? The western notion of karma is a complete travesty. There is no cosmic bookeeper, but there are certain patterns to the way appearances appear. Realizing the existential truth isn't a process of healing, anymore than it's a reward for good behavior, good deeds or correct beliefs. An individual can "wake up" into all sorts of negative pre-conditions that they essentially inherit. That's karma - or at least, one facet of it. To expect some sort of perfected physical/emotional/psychological state, especially one that's permanent, is a misapprehension of what is pointed to by the notion of freedom. Freedom, in existential terms, ultimately has nothing to do with conditioning, or conditions. It's true that the existential dilemma will be the source of at least a baseline sense of dread for as long as it's unresolved. Personally, however, the act of questioning was something that I always found to be uplifting and even joyous at times. As it involved a process of shedding falsity, it was one that involved hope, resulted in an incremental movement away from insanity, and for me, was net positive. I'm sure there are other's who would say the same.I've just finished reading Jan's second book, A Glimpse of Nothingness. And in that book he talks about his experiences in an American Zen community. Personally, I find the book rather underwhelming. It's mostly about a group of deeply depressed people trying to cheer each other up in their suffering. No real earthshaking insights found there. Nevertheless, exactly as you've just said, there was this kind of silver lining. There was this kind of net positive. |
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Post by Reefs on Mar 15, 2020 8:03:22 GMT -5
Yes, the influence on everyone, including those without special indoctrination or training, is worth paying attention to. Even though I was sort of removed from that, I still grew up in a society where those were the core values and so I still assimilated a great deal of it. I first noticed that when living in a different country with a very different culture. They care about things we wouldn't really care about, and they don't care about things we would care a lot about. They got very different ideas of justice or success as well. Just think of the TED talk I post a while ago about how language shapes our experience ("He broke the vase" vs. "the vase broke"). There's always also a culture attached to a language and with that certain values and a certain way of sorting out experience. Yes, your points about language were interesting to me, especially as I've got no serious second other than computer coding. Ever read something similar to this book? It's benighted in several sense, but it offers some relative insight into how and why culture moves through cycles of evolution and decay over time, and so some insight into why various culture differ. Societies, much like the planet, have a sort of life of their own, as do the various social building blocks that comprise them. The secular humanist idea at the root is that of the environment encoding itself, onto various media, like, say the chemical make-up of the Earth and it's climate encoded itself onto DNA over time. It's ultimately a physical, secular-realist notion, but once they started thinking in terms of information, the need for an idea of consciousness is inevitable. I'm familiar with the name of that book and the general idea of memes. And the notion of a similarity between a mind virus and a biological virus, I think we've already heard that from Seth. But yes, the idea of cycles and cycles within cycles is at the heart of metaphysics. So from that perspective, seeing these same cycles in the individual and then at a larger scale in societies is exactly as it should be. As they say, what begins, must end. And you can turn that round as well, i.e whatever ends begins. And cultures are much more similar than it seems at times. If you look at mythology, you'll see the exact same themes and memes everywhere. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 15, 2020 12:02:22 GMT -5
Currently watching this, and as Dalrymple puts it at one point "we're all responsible for our own health". Now, to the extent that someone is "spiritually bypassing" and redefining their problems, then sure, they're suffering and fooling themselves. But, discerning whether that's happening from the outside looking in is to base a judgment on camouflage. The dichotomy that I was referring to in terms of a dialog killer was the distinction between pain and suffering, not realization and alignment. That's tricky territory. Remember the saying, "as above so below, as within so without"? In that sense, I find Scott's tendency to categorically dismiss mind-reading as a kind of loserthink a bit too short-sighted. On the one hand, he is right, of course. A lot of mind-reading you encounter in everyday life is probably just a combination of projection and guesswork. But, on the other hand, you don't want to go so far as to argue for actual separation either, right? The western notion of karma is a complete travesty. There is no cosmic bookeeper, but there are certain patterns to the way appearances appear. Realizing the existential truth isn't a process of healing, anymore than it's a reward for good behavior, good deeds or correct beliefs. An individual can "wake up" into all sorts of negative pre-conditions that they essentially inherit. That's karma - or at least, one facet of it. To expect some sort of perfected physical/emotional/psychological state, especially one that's permanent, is a misapprehension of what is pointed to by the notion of freedom. Freedom, in existential terms, ultimately has nothing to do with conditioning, or conditions. It's true that the existential dilemma will be the source of at least a baseline sense of dread for as long as it's unresolved. Personally, however, the act of questioning was something that I always found to be uplifting and even joyous at times. As it involved a process of shedding falsity, it was one that involved hope, resulted in an incremental movement away from insanity, and for me, was net positive. I'm sure there are other's who would say the same.I've just finished reading Jan's second book, A Glimpse of Nothingness. And in that book he talks about his experiences in an American Zen community. Personally, I find the book rather underwhelming. It's mostly about a group of deeply depressed people trying to cheer each other up in their suffering. No real earthshaking insights found there. Nevertheless, exactly as you've just said, there was this kind of silver lining. There was this kind of net positive. It's a tautology that a genuine "mind-to-mind" wouldn't be "from the outside looking in".  My experience with "spiritual community" is far far too narrow and shallow to really comment on the collective depression notion. All I can say is that the experience of group prayer/meditation is quite different than solo, but my existential questioning was almost entirely done solo. |
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Post by laughter on Mar 15, 2020 12:05:40 GMT -5
Yes, your points about language were interesting to me, especially as I've got no serious second other than computer coding. Ever read something similar to this book? It's benighted in several sense, but it offers some relative insight into how and why culture moves through cycles of evolution and decay over time, and so some insight into why various culture differ. Societies, much like the planet, have a sort of life of their own, as do the various social building blocks that comprise them. The secular humanist idea at the root is that of the environment encoding itself, onto various media, like, say the chemical make-up of the Earth and it's climate encoded itself onto DNA over time. It's ultimately a physical, secular-realist notion, but once they started thinking in terms of information, the need for an idea of consciousness is inevitable. I'm familiar with the name of that book and the general idea of memes. And the notion of a similarity between a mind virus and a biological virus, I think we've already heard that from Seth. But yes, the idea of cycles and cycles within cycles is at the heart of metaphysics. So from that perspective, seeing these same cycles in the individual and then at a larger scale in societies is exactly as it should be. As they say, what begins, must end. And you can turn that round as well, i.e whatever ends begins. And cultures are much more similar than it seems at times. If you look at mythology, you'll see the exact same themes and memes everywhere. Yeah, people really have to try to miss that .. it's just that some of them can be quite accomplished in all their efforting.  |
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Post by Reefs on Mar 17, 2020 8:18:51 GMT -5
People who cling to their body identity are not fit for this knowledge
Niz: There are many persons who have a great attachment to their own individuality. They want first and foremost to remain as an individual and then search, for they are not prepared to lose that individuality. While retaining their identity, they want to find out what is the truth. But in this process, you must get rid of the identity itself. If you really find out what you are, you will see that you are not an individual, you are not a person, you are not a body. And people who cling to their body identity are not fit for this knowledge.
Yesterday we discussed how one is likely to mistake the name for the thing. That is to be avoided, and that is why if someone asks what is the paramatman like, what is the Absolute like, then you may say it is like Bombay. That is merely a name given, you cannot give me a part of Bombay if I asked for it. But one should not be involved with the name to the extent that one forgets the substance. Various names have been given to that Absolute state, but it must be understood that it is unconditioned, has no attributes and possesses no identity.
One has landed himself in bondage by identifying with a name and form. But one is really that thing which is timeless, spaceless and without identity. Now when we seek truth, we seek truth with a form and that is where the trouble arises. There is name and form and action. The moment the life force disappears, there is no name, no form, no acquisition, no hopes, ambition—nothing.
I am asked the question: Can we say that you and I are identical? So I say, show me the sample of what you are and show me the sample of what I am, then I can tell you whether we are the same.
The Ultimate Medicine: Dialogues with a Realized Master, Chapter 4
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Post by justlikeyou on Mar 20, 2020 16:52:54 GMT -5
Q: There is suffering and bloodshed in East Pakistan at the present moment. How do you look at
it? How does it appear to you, how do you react to it?
M: In pure consciousness, nothing ever happens.
Q: Please come down from these metaphysical heights! Of what use is it to a suffering man to be
told that nobody is aware of his suffering but himself? To relegate everything to illusion is insult
added to injury. The Bengali of East Pakistan is a fact and his suffering is a fact. Please, do not
analyze them out of existence! You are reading newspapers, you hear people talking about it. You
cannot plead ignorance. Now, what is your attitude to what is happening?
M: No attitude. Nothing is happening.
Q: Any day there may be a riot right in front of you, perhaps people killing each other. Surely you
can't say: nothing is happening and remain aloof.
M: I never talked of remaining aloof. You could as well see me jumping into the fray to save
somebody and getting killed. Yet to me nothing happened. Imagine a big building collapsing. Some rooms are in ruins, some are intact. But can you speak of the space as ruined or intact? It is only the structure that suffered and the people who happened to live in it. Nothing happened to space itself. Similarly, nothing happens to life when forms break
down and names are wiped out. The goldsmith melts down old ornaments to make new. Sometimes a good piece goes with the bad. He takes it in his stride, for he knows that no gold is lost.
Q: It is not death that I rebel against. It is the manner of dying.
M: Death is natural, the manner of dying is man-made. Separateness causes fear and aggression,
which again cause violence. Do away with man-made separations and all this horror of people
killing each other will surely end. But in reality there is no killing and no dying. The real does not die,
the unreal never lived. Set your mind right and all will be right. When you know that the world is one,
that humanity is one, you will act accordingly. But first of all you must attend to the way you feel,
think and live. Unless there is order in yourself, there can be no order in the world.
In reality nothing happens. Onto the screen of the mind destiny forever projects its pictures,
memories of former projections and thus illusion constantly renews itself. The pictures come and go
— light intercepted by ignorance. See the light and disregard the picture.
Q: What a callous way of looking at things! People are killing and getting killed and here you talk of
pictures.
M: By all means go and get killed yourself — if that is what you think you should do. Or even go and
kill, if you take it to be your duty. But that is not the way to end the evil. Evil is the stench of a mind
that is diseased. Heal your mind and it will cease to project distorted, ugly pictures.
Q: What you say I understand, but emotionally I cannot accept it. This merely idealistic view of life
repels me deeply. I just cannot think of myself to be permanently in a state of dream.
M: How can anybody be permanently in a state caused by an impermanent body? The
misunderstanding is based on your idea that you are the body. Examine the idea, see its inherent
contradictions, realize that your present existence is like a shower of sparks, each spark lasting a
second and the shower itself — a minute or two. Surely a thing of which the beginning is the end,
can have no middle. Respect your terms. Reality cannot be momentary. It is timeless, but
timelessness is not duration.
Q: I admit that the world in which I live is not the real world. But there is a real world, of which I see
a distorted picture. The distortion may be due to some blemish in my body or mind. But when you
say there is no real world, only a dream world in my mind, I just cannot take it. I wish I could believe
that all horrors of existence are due to my having a body. Suicide would be the way out.
M: As long as you pay attention to ideas, your own or of others, you will be in trouble. But if you
disregard all teachings, all books, anything out into words and dive deeply within yourself and find
yourself, this alone will solve all your problems and leave you in full mastery of every situation,
because you will not be dominated by your ideas about the situation. Take an example. You are in
the company of an attractive woman. You get ideas about her and this creates a sexual situation. A
problem is created and you start looking for books on continence, or enjoyment. Were you a baby,
both of you could be naked and together without any problem arising. Just stop thinking you are the
bodies and the problems of love and sex will lose their meaning. With all sense of limitation gone,
fear, pain and the search for pleasure — all cease. Only awareness remains.
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Post by Reefs on May 9, 2020 11:07:17 GMT -5
As long as you pay attention to ideas, your own or of others, you will be in trouble. But if you disregard all teachings, all books, anything out into words and dive deeply within yourself and find yourself, this alone will solve all your problems and leave you in full mastery of every situation, because you will not be dominated by your ideas about the situation. Take an example. You are in the company of an attractive woman. You get ideas about her and this creates a sexual situation. A problem is created and you start looking for books on continence, or enjoyment. Were you a baby, both of you could be naked and together without any problem arising. Just stop thinking you are the bodies and the problems of love and sex will lose their meaning. With all sense of limitation gone, fear, pain and the search for pleasure — all cease. Only awareness remains. Bingo. And perfect example, haha. Reminds me of Ramakrishna saying that a sage is like a 3 year old. Good to see all those teachers on the same page, first we had Ramana offering the geese koan, now we have Niz channeling Ramakrishna. Love it!  |
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Post by Reefs on May 9, 2020 11:19:24 GMT -5
Take up that chant “I am consciousness”
Niz: So long as you identify yourself as the body, your experience of pain and sorrow will increase day by day. That is why you must give up this identification, and you should take yourself as the consciousness. If you take yourself as the body, it means you have forgotten your true Self, which is the atman. And sorrow results for the one who forgets himself. When the body falls, the principle which always remains is You. If you identify yourself with the body, you will feel that you are dying, but in reality there is no death because you are not the body. Let the body be there or not be there, your existence is always there; it is eternal.
Now who or what has heard my talk? It is not the ear, not the physical body, but that knowledge which is in the body; that has heard me. So identify yourself with that knowledge, that consciousness. Whatever happiness we enjoy in this world is only imaginary. The real happiness is to know your existence, which is apart from the body. You should never forget the real identity that you possess. Consider a patient on his deathbed, certain to die. Now when he first comes to know of his disease, say cancer, he gets such a shock that it is permanently engraved in his memory. Like that, you should never forget your true nature—the true identity I have told you about.
A patient who is suffering from cancer is, as it were, all the time silently chanting “I’m dying from cancer”; and that chant proceeds without any efforts. Similarly, in your case: Take up that chant “I am consciousness.” That chant, too, should go on without any effort. One who is constantly awake in his true nature—having this knowledge about himself—is liberated.
A patient suffering from terminal cancer always remembers his state and ultimately undergoes that very end; so much is certain. Similarly, one who remembers that he is the knowledge, that he is the consciousness, has that end, he becomes the Parabrahman.
Remembering that you are the consciousness should be without any effort. When you say “I,” don’t refer to this body’s “I,” but to that “I” which represents this consciousness. The consciousness is “I,” and make use of this knowledge when you act.
The Ultimate Medicine: Dialogues with a Realized Master, Chapter 5
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Post by justlikeyou on May 11, 2020 9:17:38 GMT -5
As long as you pay attention to ideas, your own or of others, you will be in trouble. But if you disregard all teachings, all books, anything out into words and dive deeply within yourself and find yourself, this alone will solve all your problems and leave you in full mastery of every situation, because you will not be dominated by your ideas about the situation. Take an example. You are in the company of an attractive woman. You get ideas about her and this creates a sexual situation. A problem is created and you start looking for books on continence, or enjoyment. Were you a baby, both of you could be naked and together without any problem arising. Just stop thinking you are the bodies and the problems of love and sex will lose their meaning. With all sense of limitation gone, fear, pain and the search for pleasure — all cease. Only awareness remains. Bingo. And perfect example, haha. Reminds me of Ramakrishna saying that a sage is like a 3 year old. Good to see all those teachers on the same page, first we had Ramana offering the geese koan, now we have Niz channeling Ramakrishna. Love it! Indeed. :-) |
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Post by justlikeyou on May 11, 2020 9:17:49 GMT -5
Questioner: Some say the universe was created. Others say that it always existed and is for ever undergoing transformation. Some say it is subject to eternal laws. Others deny even causality. Some say the world is real. Others -- that it has no being whatsoever.
Maharaj: Which world are you enquiring about?
Q: The world of my perceptions, of course.
M: The world you can perceive is a very small world indeed. And it is entirely private. Take it to be a dream and be done with it.
Q: How can I take it to be a dream? A dream does not last.
M: How long will your own world last?
Q: After all, my little world is but a part of the total.
M: Is not the idea of a total world a part of your personal world? The universe does not come to tell you that you are a part of it. It is you who have invented a totality to contain you as a part. In fact all you know is your own private world, however well you have furnished it with your imaginations and expectations.
Q: Surely, perception is not imagination!
M: What else? Perception is recognition, is it not? Something entirely unfamiliar can be sensed, but cannot be perceived. Perception involves memory.
Q: Granted, but memory does not make it illusion.
M: Perception, imagination, expectation, anticipation, illusion -- all are based on memory. There are hardly any border lines between them. They just merge into each other. All are responses of memory.
Q: Still, memory is there to prove the reality of my world.
M: How much do you remember? Try to write down from memory what you were thinking, saying and doing on the 30th of the last month.
Q: Yes, there is a blank.
M: It is not so bad. You do remember a lot -- unconscious memory makes the world in which you live so familiar.
Q: Admitted that the world in which I live is subjective and partial. What about you? In what kind of world do you live?
M: My world is just like yours. I see, I hear, I feel, I think, I speak and act in a world I perceive, just like you. But with you it is all, with me it is nothing. Knowing the world to be a part of myself, I pay it no more attention than you pay to the food you have eaten. While being prepared and eaten, the food is separate from you and your mind is on it; once swallowed, you become totally unconscious of it. I have eaten up the world and I need not think of it any more.
Q: Dont you become completely irresponsible?
M: How could I? How can I hurt something which is one with me. On the contrary, without thinking of the world, whatever I do will be of benefit to it. Just as the body sets itself right unconsciously, so am I ceaselessly active in setting the world right.
Q: Nevertheless, you are aware of the immense suffering of the world?
M: Of course I am, much more than you are.
Q: Then what do you do?
M: I look at it through the eyes of God and find that all is well.
Q: How can you say that all is well? Look at the wars, the exploitation, the cruel strife between the citizen and the state.
M: All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 18, 2020 15:48:32 GMT -5
From I Am That Chp 91 "Pleasure and Happiness"
M: Every teacher teaches according to his own experience. Experience is shaped by belief
and belief is shaped by experience. Even the Guru is shaped by the disciple to his own
image. It is the disciple that makes the Guru great. Once the Guru is seen to be the agent
of a liberating power, which works both from within and without, whole-hearted surrender
becomes natural and easy. Just as a man gripped by pain puts himself completely in the
hands of a surgeon, so does the disciple entrust himself without reservation to his Guru. It
is quite natural to seek help when its need is felt acutely. But, however powerful the Guru
may be, he should not impose his will on the disciple. On the other hand, a disciple that
distrusts and hesitates is bound to remain unfulfilled for no fault of his Guru.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 25, 2020 18:59:54 GMT -5
Q: You make all these extraordinary statements about yourself. What makes you say those
things? What do you mean by saying that you are beyond space and time?
M: You ask and the answer comes. I watch myself — I watch the answer and see no
contradiction. It is clear to me that I am telling you the truth. It is all very simple. Only you
must trust me that I mean what I say, that I am quite serious. As I told you already, my
Guru showed me my true nature — and the true nature of the world. Having realized that I
am one with, and yet beyond the world, I became free from all desire and fear. I did not
reason out that I should be free — I found myself free — unexpectedly, without the least
effort. This freedom from desire and fear remained with me since then. Another thing I
noticed was that I do not need to make an effort; the deed follows the thought, without
delay and friction. I have also found that thoughts become self-fulfilling; things would fall in
place smoothly and rightly. The main change was in the mind; it became motionless and
silent, responding quickly, but not perpetuating the response. Spontaneity became a way of
life, the real became natural and the natural became real. And above all, infinite affection,
love, dark and quiet, radiating in all directions, embracing all, making all interesting and
beautiful, significant and auspicious.
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 29, 2020 9:36:20 GMT -5
From Chapter 38, I AM THAT.
Q...Some say: ‘Reality is for all equally, but not all are equally endowed with the capacity to grasp it. The capacity
comes with desire, which will grow into devotion and ultimately into total self-dedication. With integrity and earnestness and iron determination to overcome all obstacles, the Westerner has the same chance as the Oriental man. All he needs is the rousing of interest’. To rouse his interest in self-knowledge he needs to be convinced about its advantages.
M: You believe it is possible to transmit a personal experience?
Q: I do not know. You speak of unity, identity of the seer with the seen. When all is one, communication should be feasible.
M: To have the direct experience of a country one must go and live there. Don’t ask for the impossible. A man’s spiritual victory no doubt benefits mankind, but to benefit another individual, a close personal relation is required. Such relation is not accidental and not everybody can claim it. On the other hand, the scientific approach is for all. ‘Trust- test - taste’. What more do you need? Why push the Truth down unwilling throats? It cannot be done, anyhow. Without a receiver what can the giver do?
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 13, 2020 7:51:44 GMT -5
From "I Am That" Chapter 72.
Q: How do I go about it in practice?
M: Whenever a thought or emotion of desire or fear comes to your mind, just turn away
from it.
Q: By suppressing my thoughts and feelings I shall provoke a reaction.
M: I am not talking of suppression. Just refuse attention.
Q: Must I not use effort to arrest the movements of the mind?
M: It has nothing to do with effort. Just turn away, look between the thoughts, rather than
at the thoughts. When you happen to walk in a crowd, you do not fight every man you meet
— you just find your way between.
Q: If I use my will to control the mind, it only strengthens the ego.
M: Of course. When you fight, you invite a fight. But when you do not resist, you meet with
no resistance. When you refuse to play the game, you are out of it.
Q: How long will it take me to get free of the mind?
M: It may take a thousand years, but really no time is required. All you need is to be in
dead earnest. Here the will is the deed. If you are sincere, you have it. After all, it is a
matter of attitude. Nothing stops you from being a gnani here and now, except fear. You are
afraid of being impersonal, of impersonal being. It is all quite simple. Turn away from your
desires and fears and from the thoughts they create and you are at once in your natural
state.
Q: No question of reconditioning, changing, or eliminating the mind?
M: Absolutely none. Leave your mind alone, that is all. Don’t go along with it. After all,
there is no such thing as mind apart from thoughts which come and go obeying their own
laws, not yours. They dominate you only because you are interested in them. It is exactly as
Christ said ‘Resist not evil’. By resisting evil you merely strengthen it.
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Post by justlikeyou on Aug 17, 2020 10:54:25 GMT -5
Q: Without the world, there is no place for love.
M: Quite so. All these attributes - being, consciousness, love, and beauty - are reflections of the real in the world. No world - no reflection.
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My experience with "spiritual community" is far far too narrow and shallow to really comment on the collective depression notion. All I can say is that the experience of group prayer/meditation is quite different than solo, but my existential questioning was almost entirely done solo.
