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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2019 7:23:47 GMT -5
Monkey Mind
Jed: Vietnamese Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh says that there are two ways to wash the dishes. The first is to wash the dishes in order to have clean dishes. The other is to wash the dishes in order to wash the dishes. I do it in order to wash the dishes, but since I spend maybe an hour a week in this attempt at mindfulness, I figure it's best not to make myself out as being a real in-the-moment kind of guy …
[long TMT passage]
… I digress. That's where my mind really goes when I wash the dishes. Not no-mind, monkey mind. If I were one of those revered Japanese masters I'd probably make myself slave in the kitchen for ten years without ever speaking to me.
Jed McKenna, Spiritual Enlightenment, Chapter 29
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2019 12:01:23 GMT -5
Monkey Mind
Jed: Vietnamese Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh says that there are two ways to wash the dishes. The first is to wash the dishes in order to have clean dishes. The other is to wash the dishes in order to wash the dishes. I do it in order to wash the dishes, but since I spend maybe an hour a week in this attempt at mindfulness, I figure it's best not to make myself out as being a real in-the-moment kind of guy … [long TMT passage] … I digress. That's where my mind really goes when I wash the dishes. Not no-mind, monkey mind. If I were one of those revered Japanese masters I'd probably make myself slave in the kitchen for ten years without ever speaking to me. Jed McKenna, Spiritual Enlightenment, Chapter 29 Yes, this is a heresy that a quiet mind is neither needed for enlightenment nor the result of it. Shocking!  |
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Post by laughter on Apr 26, 2019 12:05:10 GMT -5
Neti-Neti
Jed: The only thing to get a handle on is negation—the tearing-down process. I know you want to learn something, to embrace something, to understand. Humans are comprised of emotion and intellect, so it's only natural to want to follow one or both of these aspects of ourselves inward to the truth, but you can't. You could spend a thousand years with your nose in books or at the feet of masters and still be no closer to waking up from delusion. The fact is that no amount or combination of knowledge can bring about truth-realization. No belief is true. No. Belief. Is. True. All beliefs. All concepts. All thoughts. Yes, they're all false—all bullsh!t. Of course they are. Not just religions and spiritual teachings, but all philosophies, all ideas, all opinions. If you're going for the truth, you're not taking any of them with you. Nothing that says two, not one, survives.
Jed McKenna, Spiritual Enlightenment, Chapter 22 Pure gold plating, no doubt.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2019 20:42:13 GMT -5
See now, it depends on what he's talking about here: the path in the entirety, or the path after the first step (that he writes about as well), when, as you like to put it, the head is in the tiger's mouth. Now, unlike Jed, I don't think that period of the freefall ("tiger's mouth") is necessarily necessary, but that's what I can relate to directly. If he means that the slow process of annihilation applies to the entire life story, then it's almost sort of a tautology: every SRSuperPeep TM lived a life up until the point that Jed calls "done". But yeah, he's definitely projecting his experiences and expectations on how agonizing it all has to be, and obviously has no point of reference for kensho. Done here means having completed the spiritual autolysis process. The head in the tiger's mouth phrase I first heard Papaji talk about and it actually refers to not being able to stop or go back, which typically is the case near the end of the search, when you are done guru-hopping. In my own story, I can actually refer to two instances of being done. The first one was being done with the search even though not having any answers yet (tiger's mouth), the second one was being done with all existential questions (SR). So generally, done can mean different things or refer to different stages on the path. And in terms of integration (alignment), you're basically never done. Yes, no reference. No doubt about that. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 26, 2019 21:04:49 GMT -5
Yes, this is a heresy that a quiet mind is neither needed for enlightenment nor the result of it. Shocking! The quotes I posted, I chose because I think they best describe his position, not because I necessarily agree with what he says there. But I can probably agree with most of them. As I said before, if you don't get hung up on Jed's (non-)realization status, you'll find the book very useful and full of good information. Which is the approach I would generally recommend. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 27, 2019 11:12:51 GMT -5
See now, it depends on what he's talking about here: the path in the entirety, or the path after the first step (that he writes about as well), when, as you like to put it, the head is in the tiger's mouth. Now, unlike Jed, I don't think that period of the freefall ("tiger's mouth") is necessarily necessary, but that's what I can relate to directly. If he means that the slow process of annihilation applies to the entire life story, then it's almost sort of a tautology: every SRSuperPeep TM lived a life up until the point that Jed calls "done". But yeah, he's definitely projecting his experiences and expectations on how agonizing it all has to be, and obviously has no point of reference for kensho. Done here means having completed the spiritual autolysis process. The head in the tiger's mouth phrase I first heard Papaji talk about and it actually refers to not being able to stop or go back, which typically is the case near the end of the search, when you are done guru-hopping. In my own story, I can actually refer to two instances of being done. The first one was being done with the search even though not having any answers yet (tiger's mouth), the second one was being done with all existential questions (SR). So generally, done can mean different things or refer to different stages on the path. And in terms of integration (alignment), you're basically never done. Yes, no reference. No doubt about that. Right, so I wouldn't use "done" to mean the start of the free-fall, even though it's essentially a foregone conclusion at that point. And, as anything is possible, I guess a peep could yank his or her head out. Also, from my experience, "done" was at the middle of a process of informing of mind. Jed didn't have the internet for that, or, at best, an early version of it. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 27, 2019 11:15:15 GMT -5
Yes, this is a heresy that a quiet mind is neither needed for enlightenment nor the result of it. Shocking! The quotes I posted, I chose because I think they best describe his position, not because I necessarily agree with what he says there. But I can probably agree with most of them. As I said before, if you don't get hung up on Jed's (non-)realization status, you'll find the book very useful and full of good information. Which is the approach I would generally recommend. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's not really a koan, but his point that a quiet mind is essentially a means to an end is a potential mind-hook for a seasoned seeker. Conversely, while I see the notion of an enlightened philosopher to be somewhat of an oxymoron, hey, anything is possible.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 27, 2019 23:01:21 GMT -5
Right, so I wouldn't use "done" to mean the start of the free-fall, even though it's essentially a foregone conclusion at that point. And, as anything is possible, I guess a peep could yank his or her head out. Also, from my experience, "done" was at the middle of a process of informing of mind. Jed didn't have the internet for that, or, at best, an early version of it. Yes, the 'done' event is post-SR 'informing of mind' related. And there your individual mileage may very greatly. For some it takes days or weeks, for others a decade. Well, Jed had his library.  |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 27, 2019 23:04:33 GMT -5
It's not really a koan, but his point that a quiet mind is essentially a means to an end is a potential mind-hook for a seasoned seeker. Conversely, while I see the notion of an enlightened philosopher to be somewhat of an oxymoron, hey, anything is possible. I'd put Alan Watts into that category. It's an extremely rare occurrence, I agree. And when it happens, it can be awe-inspiring.  |
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Post by satchitananda on Apr 27, 2019 23:16:56 GMT -5
Right, so I wouldn't use "done" to mean the start of the free-fall, even though it's essentially a foregone conclusion at that point. And, as anything is possible, I guess a peep could yank his or her head out. Also, from my experience, "done" was at the middle of a process of informing of mind. Jed didn't have the internet for that, or, at best, an early version of it. Yes, the 'done' event is post-SR 'informing of mind' related. And there your individual mileage may very greatly. For some it takes days or weeks, for others a decade. Well, Jed had his library. Nope. The "done" is Now, when you wake up, not afterwards. I think you are talking about intellectual enlightenment. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 27, 2019 23:18:39 GMT -5
It's not really a koan, but his point that a quiet mind is essentially a means to an end is a potential mind-hook for a seasoned seeker. Conversely, while I see the notion of an enlightened philosopher to be somewhat of an oxymoron, hey, anything is possible. I'd put Alan Watts into that category. It's an extremely rare occurrence, I agree. And when it happens, it can be awe-inspiring. Seems to me that Philosophers tend toward a depressed and anxious lot.  Watts occupied an interesting cultural position, and he was a great fit for it. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 28, 2019 0:30:00 GMT -5
Seems to me that Philosophers tend toward a depressed and anxious lot. Watts occupied an interesting cultural position, and he was a great fit for it. Yes, probably because most of them suffer from overthinking. Some even become a victim of their own weird theories (see Nietzsche). What people like Watts are really good at is synthesizing the essence of various teachings. In that regard, I think Joseph Campbell would be another good candidate (also on my reading list, hehe). |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 28, 2019 0:39:00 GMT -5
Yes, the 'done' event is post-SR ' informing of mind' related. And there your individual mileage may very greatly. For some it takes days or weeks, for others a decade. Well, Jed had his library. Nope. The "done" is Now, when you wake up, not afterwards. I think you are talking about intellectual enlightenment. I agree. But we are talking about the informing of mind, not something that originated in mind (aka mind-enlightenment). And that always happens after the event. It's basically just some kind of rearranging of the mental furniture because the former arrangement doesn't work anymore. And that can take a while until something truly workable has been achieved. This process and the results of it is basically all we talk about here all the time. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 28, 2019 14:06:16 GMT -5
Seems to me that Philosophers tend toward a depressed and anxious lot. Watts occupied an interesting cultural position, and he was a great fit for it. Yes, probably because most of them suffer from overthinking. Some even become a victim of their own weird theories (see Nietzsche). What people like Watts are really good at is synthesizing the essence of various teachings. In that regard, I think Joseph Campbell would be another good candidate (also on my reading list, hehe). Alan ran in one particular social circle that was partially responsible for influencing the "Beat's", centered in Manhattan and SF, in the '50's and leading to the cultural upheavals of the '60's. He didn't introduce Zen into the West, but he seems to have played a major role in disseminating it. His speaking on the subject that I've heard is a cultural translation, from Japanese into American English (even though he was originally British). And while I'm perhaps pre-biased in favor of him because of my own influences which were likely derivative of his influence, I gotta' say anyway, that it's great stuff. |
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Post by Reefs on Apr 28, 2019 21:43:35 GMT -5
Alan ran in one particular social circle that was partially responsible for influencing the "Beat's", centered in Manhattan and SF, in the '50's and leading to the cultural upheavals of the '60's. He didn't introduce Zen into the West, but he seems to have played a major role in disseminating it. His speaking on the subject that I've heard is a cultural translation, from Japanese into American English (even though he was originally British). And while I'm perhaps pre-biased in favor of him because of my own influences which were likely derivative of his influence, I gotta' say anyway, that it's great stuff. I don't know much about AW's background. But there's a series of lectures on youtube from the 1950's that had been aired in the SF area (KQED). So what you say makes sense. |
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