|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 20, 2019 8:43:03 GMT -5
It's like the debate about predestination in Christianity. Those who are destined to be curious about the Self, who hear instructions to listen, understand, and look inward deeply, and who then resonate with those instructions, and do those things... and then whose ignorance is cleared... are the people whom God has, even prior to all this, and above and beyond these things, chosen... "No one will ever enter the kingdom of Heaven at my bidding, but only because you yourself are whole. Hearken to the Word, understand Knowledge, love Life. No one persecutes or oppresses you other than yourself!" ~ Jesus. That's apocrypha. In the canonical Bible Jesus says: ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 20, 2019 8:48:10 GMT -5
It's like the debate about predestination in Christianity. Those who are destined to be curious about the Self, who hear instructions to listen, understand, and look inward deeply, and who then resonate with those instructions, and do those things... and then whose ignorance is cleared... are the people whom God has, even prior to all this, and above and beyond these things, chosen... Yes. But, as far as I know...there's no personal God who does such 'choosing.' That's a nice fairy tale though. And it does apparently bring comfort to some...and the opposite to others! Well, self-realization is itself a fairy tale, so it's appropriate
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 11:36:36 GMT -5
Most people don't want to wake up. They will continue to suffer. There is nothing I can say to those people. But for those who are seeking, the question is, how do I wake up? You can read about spirituality, discuss it, think about it or you can drop all concepts, surrender and abide in the source which is pure awareness. If you are a seeker then by definition you will be seeking, so you won't be doing nothing. Because I know that the natural state is to completely dissolve the egoic I into the total silence of Being I can be confident in knowing what has to be done to wake up to the Self.Waking up though, is not a doing. And there is no doing that can guarantee awakening, thus, your confidence is misplaced.
Just because practice apparently correlates with awakening doesn't mean that practice causes awakening. As I said previously, the sincere interest to put mind and it's shenanigans in the back seat, to forsake ego for Truth is the most important thing of all in the equation of 'practice/awakening.' Sincerity is either there or it's not. It cannot be forced. Cannot be 'practiced' into being.
No-thing actually needs to happen for awakening to happen. It's far more accurate to say a particular movement of mind must cease/stop happening for awakening to happen. In short, mind needs to take a back-seat. Again, not a doing. For so many who practice, it's just another way for mind to feel that it's in control of 'the journey' towards awakening.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 20, 2019 11:38:11 GMT -5
Most people don't want to wake up. They will continue to suffer. There is nothing I can say to those people. But for those who are seeking, the question is, how do I wake up? You can read about spirituality, discuss it, think about it or you can drop all concepts, surrender and abide in the source which is pure awareness. If you are a seeker then by definition you will be seeking, so you won't be doing nothing. Because I know that the natural state is to completely dissolve the egoic I into the total silence of Being I can be confident in knowing what has to be done to wake up to the Self. Satch, I appreciate the value of what you bring to the message board, and I do sense your conviction in the words you choose. You're good to go in my book. And I agree for the most part that most people don't want to wake up, but I'd say it's often because they are mostly unconscious to the prospect, much less the absolute intimacy of the realization, of it actually being "doable" in the first place. This message board, though fraught with certain misunderstandings and occasional food-fights that are indicative of walls crumbling ~even as certain participants continue to attempt to rebuild them~ (at least in my eyes), is really the only place on the web that I visit. It's gritty, and again, in my book, that's cool. I tend toward the incorrect side of the marg, but that's just due to the story. That said and with a focus on certain admonitions you've cast about recently, for a self-assumed teacher and knower of what needs to be done, a full on proponent of practices and classical Advaita, why do you chastise sravana, manana, and Nididhyāsana on a message board that basically requires written forms of such esteemed jnana yoga PRACTICES?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 11:38:19 GMT -5
If you look closely, the drive to do things and then refrain from doing, is not even in your hands to begin with. You're overthinking this. Even after the last month of writing in here every day, do you know why you're refering to the neural construct in this post? I'm not. Arising interest, impetus to act, is not caused by stuff happening in the brain. It just appears that way when you're immersed within the story.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 11:41:01 GMT -5
Yes. But, as far as I know...there's no personal God who does such 'choosing.' That's a nice fairy tale though. And it does apparently bring comfort to some...and the opposite to others! Well, self-realization is itself a fairy tale, so it's appropriate The actual seeing through of what is false for what is Truth, is not. That seeing happens beyond the dream/story. The part that's a fairy tale is that there ever was an existent SVP in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 20, 2019 11:51:31 GMT -5
Well, self-realization is itself a fairy tale, so it's appropriate The actual seeing through of what is false for what is Truth, is not. That seeing happens beyond the dream/story. The part that's a fairy tale is that there ever was an existent SVP in the first place. I sense that Sifty is pointing out that it's not so much an "Awareness of", but rather more simply "as Awareness". Just a perspective based on some good stuff provided as a whole.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 20, 2019 11:59:54 GMT -5
Well, self-realization is itself a fairy tale, so it's appropriate The actual seeing through of what is false for what is Truth, is not. That seeing happens beyond the dream/story. The part that's a fairy tale is that there ever was an existent SVP in the first place. The very idea of even an illusion to see through -- and thus a seeing through of that illusion -- is part of the illusion. It's the last part of the illusion, the very boundary, you might say, but it's still illusion. How do we know? It comes and goes. A realization that is not there at one time and is there at another is part of the illusion. Realization, in destroying the illusion, destroys the idea of ignorance, which also destroys itself. Realization annihilates the idea of itself. This is why Ramana Maharshi says at the very end of his 40 verses that "If it is said that Liberation is of three kids, with form or without form or with and without form, then let me tell you that the extinction of the three forms of Liberation is the only true Liberation."
|
|
|
Post by satchitananda on Apr 20, 2019 12:20:53 GMT -5
Most people don't want to wake up. They will continue to suffer. There is nothing I can say to those people. But for those who are seeking, the question is, how do I wake up? You can read about spirituality, discuss it, think about it or you can drop all concepts, surrender and abide in the source which is pure awareness. If you are a seeker then by definition you will be seeking, so you won't be doing nothing. Because I know that the natural state is to completely dissolve the egoic I into the total silence of Being I can be confident in knowing what has to be done to wake up to the Self.Waking up though, is not a doing. And there is no doing that can guarantee awakening, thus, your confidence is misplaced.
Just because practice apparently correlates with awakening doesn't mean that practice causes awakening. As I said previously, the sincere interest to put mind and it's shenanigans in the back seat, to forsake ego for Truth is the most important thing of all in the equation of 'practice/awakening.' Sincerity is either there or it's not. It cannot be forced. Cannot be 'practiced' into being.
No-thing actually needs to happen for awakening to happen. It's far more accurate to say a particular movement of mind must cease/stop happening for awakening to happen. In short, mind needs to take a back-seat. Again, not a doing. For so many who practice, it's just another way for mind to feel that it's in control of 'the journey' towards awakening.
There's just so much wrong with that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 12:22:51 GMT -5
The actual seeing through of what is false for what is Truth, is not. That seeing happens beyond the dream/story. The part that's a fairy tale is that there ever was an existent SVP in the first place. The very idea of even an illusion to see through -- and thus a seeing through of that illusion -- is part of the illusion. It's the last part of the illusion, the very boundary, you might say, but it's still illusion. How do we know? It comes and goes. A realization that is not there at one time and is there at another is part of the illusion. Realization, in destroying the illusion, destroys the idea of ignorance, which also destroys itself. Realization annihilates the idea of itself. This is why Ramana Maharshi says at the very end of his 40 verses that "If it is said that Liberation is of three kids, with form or without form or with and without form, then let me tell you that the extinction of the three forms of Liberation is the only true Liberation." This is why it's so important to see "Realization" as an absence vs. the presence of something known, some concept.
The Truth was always staring you right in the face. It was the presence of erroneous ideas that obscured. Thus, the Truth itself did not come and go. The Truth is what is always there, waiting to be seen once mind gets the heck outta the way.
But yes, Niz's quote rings true.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 12:24:32 GMT -5
Waking up though, is not a doing. And there is no doing that can guarantee awakening, thus, your confidence is misplaced.
Just because practice apparently correlates with awakening doesn't mean that practice causes awakening. As I said previously, the sincere interest to put mind and it's shenanigans in the back seat, to forsake ego for Truth is the most important thing of all in the equation of 'practice/awakening.' Sincerity is either there or it's not. It cannot be forced. Cannot be 'practiced' into being.
No-thing actually needs to happen for awakening to happen. It's far more accurate to say a particular movement of mind must cease/stop happening for awakening to happen. In short, mind needs to take a back-seat. Again, not a doing. For so many who practice, it's just another way for mind to feel that it's in control of 'the journey' towards awakening.
There's just so much wrong with that. Wakeful awareness is already the case. It's a false idea that obscures it.
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Apr 20, 2019 12:26:44 GMT -5
Oh I see. Well, that is a bit more defensible. Still, I don't love it. It has a big heaping dose of doership built into it, and implies that "final" realization is a gradual, staged, and possibly never-ending process. oh, well, fwiw, I didn't intend that implication, like, at all. Adya's talks have at least two different facets to them. In one, he's speaking from outside the dream, calling to the sleeper to awaken, and when he's speaking like that, I find him quite clear, and just as uncompromising as the most bottom-line nondualist. In another, he's speaking from within the dream, using associations that are meant to catch their attention in terms that they're familiar and comfortable with. Yeah, in the world of education, this concept is called the Zone of Proximal Development-ZPD (Vygotsky). The concept envisages the importance of attention and perception as key aspects of how learning or, in the context of this message board, unlearning/de-programming of conditioned "truth".
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Apr 20, 2019 12:31:19 GMT -5
The very idea of even an illusion to see through -- and thus a seeing through of that illusion -- is part of the illusion. It's the last part of the illusion, the very boundary, you might say, but it's still illusion. How do we know? It comes and goes. A realization that is not there at one time and is there at another is part of the illusion. Realization, in destroying the illusion, destroys the idea of ignorance, which also destroys itself. Realization annihilates the idea of itself. This is why Ramana Maharshi says at the very end of his 40 verses that "If it is said that Liberation is of three kids, with form or without form or with and without form, then let me tell you that the extinction of the three forms of Liberation is the only true Liberation." This is why it's so important to see "Realization" as an absence vs. the presence of something known, some concept.
The Truth was always staring you right in the face. It was the presence of erroneous ideas that obscured. Thus, the Truth itself did not come and go. The Truth is what is always there, waiting to be seen once mind gets the heck outta the way. Right, but even the idea of the mind getting out of the way still suggests that there is something happening in time, that "Earlier, the mind hadn't gotten out of the way. Then it did." The "presence of erroneous ideas" that "obscured" is itself just such an erroneous idea; and even that idea is erroneous, and even this one. It was Ramana's
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 12:39:21 GMT -5
This is why it's so important to see "Realization" as an absence vs. the presence of something known, some concept.
The Truth was always staring you right in the face. It was the presence of erroneous ideas that obscured. Thus, the Truth itself did not come and go. The Truth is what is always there, waiting to be seen once mind gets the heck outta the way. Right, but even the idea of the mind getting out of the way still suggests that there is something happening in time, that "Earlier, the mind hadn't gotten out of the way. Then it did." The "presence of erroneous ideas" that "obscured" is itself just such an erroneous idea; and even that idea is erroneous, and even this one. It was Ramana's Yes. Agreed.
Ah, Ramana.....cool.
|
|
|
Post by satchitananda on Apr 20, 2019 12:39:35 GMT -5
why do you chastise sravana, manana, and Nididhyāsana on a message board that basically requires written forms of such esteemed jnana yoga PRACTICES? On the contrary I encourage such reflections, but the Srutis are not to be found in the forum. I do not chastise anyone for consulting the Upanishads, Samhitas or Brahmanas.
|
|