Yes, surrender, *really* -- says the Yoga Vasistha

[siftingtothetruth]

The end of the Hindu scripture the Yoga Vasistha has some of the truest and most courageously direct passages on absolute surrender. Give up all decision-making and be asleep to the world! Few other scriptures are so direct.

Holy saints never seek to have, or dare to avoid, or leave any employment of their own choice or will. Therefore they are said to be truly saintly souls and minds who are strangers to the preference or rejection of anything. Wise men sit silently wherever they sit and live, their hearts and minds as vacant as the empty sky. They take what they get and do what is destined to them as they are unconscious of doing them. As sediments are swept away by the current of a stream, so saintly and meek minded men are moved to action by a power that is not their own. They act with their organs of action with as much unconcern as babies move their bodies in their half-sleep state.

They who know the soul manage themselves here without fostering their earthly thoughts. They remain like silent images of wood, without looking at or thinking of anything at all. He who has fewer earthly thoughts is said to be liberated in the world. Though living in it, he is as clear and free in his mind as the open air.

Convert the feeling of your heart to unfeeling and make your body and mind as unconscious as the hardest stone.

The wise man manages himself like a mechanical figure or puppet, never moving of its own motion but moving as it is moved. Having no impulse of his own desire within him, he sits as quietly as an immobile doll. The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself. The wise man moves his body like a baby, without having any cause for doing so.

Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties.

Go on managing your outward affairs in your waking state as if your faculties were dormant in sleep. Neither desire to have anything nor let go of anything that presents itself to you.

The wise, with the perception and actions of his outward organs, is simply devoid of inner desires. He does not think or feel about anything in his mind. He remains quite calm and composed in his outward appearance. The samadhi of a wise man is like sound sleep unaffected by dream in which phenomena are buried within himself and he sees nothing but his self or soul.

And on and on it goes...

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2019 9:21:55 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

The end of the Hindu scripture the Yoga Vasistha has some of the truest and most courageously direct passages on absolute surrender. Give up all decision-making and be asleep to the world! Few other scriptures are so direct.

Holy saints never seek to have, or dare to avoid, or leave any employment of their own choice or will. Therefore they are said to be truly saintly souls and minds who are strangers to the preference or rejection of anything. Wise men sit silently wherever they sit and live, their hearts and minds as vacant as the empty sky. They take what they get and do what is destined to them as they are unconscious of doing them. As sediments are swept away by the current of a stream, so saintly and meek minded men are moved to action by a power that is not their own. They act with their organs of action with as much unconcern as babies move their bodies in their half-sleep state.

They who know the soul manage themselves here without fostering their earthly thoughts. They remain like silent images of wood, without looking at or thinking of anything at all. He who has fewer earthly thoughts is said to be liberated in the world. Though living in it, he is as clear and free in his mind as the open air.

Convert the feeling of your heart to unfeeling and make your body and mind as unconscious as the hardest stone.

The wise man manages himself like a mechanical figure or puppet, never moving of its own motion but moving as it is moved. Having no impulse of his own desire within him, he sits as quietly as an immobile doll. The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself. The wise man moves his body like a baby, without having any cause for doing so.

Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties.

Go on managing your outward affairs in your waking state as if your faculties were dormant in sleep. Neither desire to have anything nor let go of anything that presents itself to you.

The wise, with the perception and actions of his outward organs, is simply devoid of inner desires. He does not think or feel about anything in his mind. He remains quite calm and composed in his outward appearance. The samadhi of a wise man is like sound sleep unaffected by dream in which phenomena are buried within himself and he sees nothing but his self or soul.

And on and on it goes...

That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded.

If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that.

"The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself.

Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties."

I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo. 

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 24, 2019 11:28:32 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded.
If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that.

"The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself.

Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties." I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo.   

Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort.

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2019 12:55:18 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 24, 2019 11:28:32 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

That seems to me to be drawing an unessarily 'hard line,' and it seems to read as 'this is what one 'should' do/not do' as though there is some choice in the matter of how life is regarded.
If the admonishment-like tone could be removed and the line reeled in, I'd be on board with some of that.

"The wise man who knows the soul is as quiet as a baby sleeping in a swinging cradle, moved without moving itself.

Get rid of your bodily exertions and lull your mind to sleep. Do all your duties like a tortoise with its contracted limbs. Manage your affairs with a half-sleeping and half-awakened mind. Do your outward functions without the effort of your mental faculties." I like those quotes...but the "Get Rid of" bit in the bolded needs to be gotten rid of imo.   

Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort.

Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."

And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place.   (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting,  to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is.

When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there. 

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 24, 2019 13:16:58 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."

And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place.   (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting,  to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is.

When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there.  

Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. 

And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. 

As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach. That “third mountain” non-denial will happen all by itself, but the beauty of transcendence for the seeker cannot I think be too stressed. First the seeker needs freedom and truth, and that comes from resolutely turning the mind inward. That’s the hard part. And all the talk about integration nowadays I think misleads seekers  into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. No, first die to the world. Leap into the fire of self-knowledge. And then rebirth will happen all of its own.

Of course all this supposes a relatively mature seeker.

[Deleted]

www.yogavasistha.com/playbill.htm

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2019 9:21:55 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Convert the feeling of your heart to unfeeling and make your body and mind as unconscious as the hardest stone. 

Cool advice

[Deleted]

Mar 24, 2019 13:45:37 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. 

Yeah, ok. Agreed. Sages after all, don't require a discourse on how it is to be a sage.

And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. 

I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization.

I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization.

Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization.

As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach.

Perhaps. ....guess that might be what's behind  folks who are still seeking, accusing those who present as SR as 'fakes' for not totally denying the phenomenal world.   I suppose another thing that can be helped. Just a very different vantage point of seeing. 

That “third mountain” non-denial will happen all by itself, but the beauty of transcendence for the seeker cannot I think be too stressed.

yeah agreed. The non-denial just happens. And no doubt, things look dramatically different from 1st mountain, even 2nd, than at 3rd.

First the seeker needs freedom and truth, and that comes from resolutely turning the mind inward. That’s the hard part. And all the talk about integration nowadays I think misleads seekers  into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. No, first die to the world. Leap into the fire of self-knowledge. And then rebirth will happen all of its own.

Of course all this supposes a relatively mature seeker.

Yes...that's important for sure... but, all bets are off on that one.

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 24, 2019 18:46:27 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. 

I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization.

I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization.

Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization.

Well, it's interesting. Certainly plans don't lead to actions in the big picture. That very idea is, of course, however, a pointer. The very act of trying to grasp that idea can lead to a glimpse of the truth. 

In the big picture, it's also true that actions do not cause SR, but that is also because in the big picture there can be no such thing as SR. Self-realization, after all, depends on the existence of ignorance, and there is no such thing as ignorance.

So SR, as you know, then, becomes a paradoxical realization -- a realization that it itself does not and cannot exist.

If we pretend that ignorance and the freedom from ignorance exist, then there is action that leads to the dissipation of ignorance (with the assistance of grace). But that dissipation of ignorance leads to realizing the whole process has actually been a misconception; there has been no such process.

But insofar as we pretend that SR does exist, though, then actions do lead to it... or at least near it, and then grace happens.

As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach.

Perhaps. ....guess that might be what's behind  folks who are still seeking, accusing those who present as SR as 'fakes' for not totally denying the phenomenal world.   I suppose another thing that can be helped. Just a very different vantage point of seeing. 

Yeah, sadly I think there's no helping that. They can't understand without realization. 

[krsnaraja]

Mar 24, 2019 19:14:00 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 24, 2019 18:46:27 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

I'm more aligned with the thread you posted about how plans don't actually 'lead to actions.' To take that seeing farther, I'm of the camp that says effort/actions don't actually lead to realization.

I see it more that the sincerity and interest that lies behind the willingness to make the effort to practice, to follow the kind of advice outlined in your opening post, is positively 'correlated' with SR. In actuality, there is no doing that can cause SR. It's all one movement though, so the interest, the sincerity, the willingness are all part and parcel of the seeing through/realization.

Seeing that though, does not mean that I'd advise anyone who is interested in efforting/trying/practicing, to not do so. If the interest is there, there's nothing to do but go with it. Same with someone who advises practice of any sort....you could say the impetus/interest to advise, is part and parcel of the general movement of coming to realization.

Well, it's interesting. Certainly plans don't lead to actions in the big picture. That very idea is, of course, however, a pointer. The very act of trying to grasp that idea can lead to a glimpse of the truth. 

In the big picture, it's also true that actions do not cause SR, but that is also because in the big picture there can be no such thing as SR. Self-realization, after all, depends on the existence of ignorance, and there is no such thing as ignorance.

So SR, as you know, then, becomes a paradoxical realization -- a realization that it itself does not and cannot exist.

If we pretend that ignorance and the freedom from ignorance exist, then there is action that leads to the dissipation of ignorance (with the assistance of grace). But that dissipation of ignorance leads to realizing the whole process has actually been a misconception; there has been no such process.

But insofar as we pretend that SR does exist, though, then actions do lead to it... or at least near it, and then grace happens.

Perhaps. ....guess that might be what's behind  folks who are still seeking, accusing those who present as SR as 'fakes' for not totally denying the phenomenal world.   I suppose another thing that can be helped. Just a very different vantage point of seeing. 

Yeah, sadly I think there's no helping that. They can't understand without realization. 

It's only by the Grace of God one finds discernment to know the truth. 

[laughter]

Mar 24, 2019 13:45:37 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 24, 2019 13:16:58 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."

And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place.   (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting,  to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is.

When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there.  

Well, its model of what the wise do is meant to be a kind of model for seekers — indeed it is literally in the context of a sage teaching a seeker. 

And it is indeed ironic to put in effort to stop trying, but then again what else to do? I am in the camp that believe that that sort of effort does bear fruit. It brings down grace. 

As far as denial, certainly it denies the phenomenal world, but for the seeker I believe that is just the right approach. That “third mountain” non-denial will happen all by itself, but the beauty of transcendence for the seeker cannot I think be too stressed. First the seeker needs freedom and truth, and that comes from resolutely turning the mind inward. That’s the hard part. And all the talk about integration nowadays I think misleads seekers  into thinking they can have their cake and eat it too. No, first die to the world. Leap into the fire of self-knowledge. And then rebirth will happen all of its own.

Of course all this supposes a relatively mature seeker.

Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife!

[siftingtothetruth]

Mar 25, 2019 6:07:53 GMT -5 laughter said:

Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife!

What, you haven't even enlightened her yet?? Charity starts at home! 

[laughter]

Mar 25, 2019 7:07:52 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Mar 25, 2019 6:07:53 GMT -5 laughter said:

Yes, I can relate to that, for sure .. but then again, tell that to my wife!

What, you haven't even enlightened her yet?? Charity starts at home! 

"my teaching" sucks!

[stardustpilgrim]

Mar 24, 2019 13:16:58 GMT -5 @figglesagain said:

Mar 24, 2019 12:55:18 GMT -5 siftingtothetruth said:

Well, it’s addressed to the seeker, to that which still considers itself a doer. To whatever that is, such admonishment does make sense. And it addresses the question many seekers have: namely, how to reconcile the world with the seeking. And the answer is: don’t bother. Drop all mental effort.

Yes, parts are, but there are also parts that seem to be saying "this is what the wise and Saintly do/live like."

And the words to 'drop all mental effort' is perfect on one hand, but you and I both know that at times even that gets taken as something that can be efforted into place.   (which of course can't be helped). Something kind of both funny, and not, about someone trying valiantly, efforting,  to cease trying. But yeah, it is what it is.

When it talks about 'how saints and wise men manage' themselves and their lives, you don't see some overstatement of things? This reads to me a bit "brown-bearish: (a bit as though there's a tingle of 'denial' of the phenomenal world, feelings and such there)....but perhaps there's something I'm missing or am reading in something not there. 

Bingo. (See the thread Groundhog Day).