pettifoggery

[justlikeyou]

Jun 8, 2024 9:10:38 GMT -5 Reefs said:

PTSD is the perspective of being separated from Source. But TPTPAU is the perspective of being at one with Source, or being Source. But that's not Adya's experience right now and probably hasn't been his experience for a long time.

Question: Can a realized teacher become separated from Source by an onset of PTSD?

ChatGPT: From a non-dual perspective, a realized teacher cannot truly become separated from Source, even if they experience PTSD. Here's why:

Nature of Realization: In non-dual teachings, realization refers to the direct, experiential understanding that one's true nature is the Source itself—pure, unchanging awareness or consciousness. This realization is often described as irreversible because it reveals the fundamental nature of reality, which is always present.

Illusion of Separation: While the mind and body may undergo experiences such as PTSD, these experiences occur within the realm of relative phenomena. The sense of separation that PTSD might bring is seen as an illusion from the standpoint of non-dual realization. The underlying awareness, or Source, remains unaffected and ever-present.

Continued Human Experience: A realized teacher, despite their profound understanding, continues to live a human life, which includes the potential for psychological and physiological challenges. However, their relationship to these experiences is transformed by their realization. They may experience the symptoms of PTSD, but they recognize these symptoms as arising within the space of awareness that they are.

Integration and Compassion: Many non-dual teachers emphasize the importance of integrating realization into everyday life. This includes dealing with personal and psychological challenges in a way that aligns with their understanding of non-separation. Their experience of PTSD can be seen as part of the play of consciousness, held within the greater context of their realization.

Therefore, while a realized teacher may experience the symptoms of PTSD, this does not equate to an actual separation from Source. Their fundamental realization of oneness and the nature of consciousness remains intact, even amidst challenging human experiences.

[andrew]

Jun 7, 2024 11:37:35 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Jun 7, 2024 11:32:44 GMT -5 andrew said:

I think I see the distinction you've made. So nothing that happens is outside the 'Whole', but the 'Whole' isn't just a 'container' (sorry, horrible word), it can also be a 'cause'?

If I've got that right, what would you say is the cause of conditioned hate, if not the 'Whole'?

Hurt people hurt people. Conditiong comes from conditioned people. It's a self-perpetuating problem. Again, local influences predominate.

I understand. The way I see it, is that Love causes everything. Love and 'The Whole' are one and the same. But 'Love' can be filtered by false beliefs, which creates hurt. It's still Love though in essence. One cannot 'hate' without fiercely loving at the same time. The 'hate' arises with the belief that 'I can't have what I desire'.

[andrew]

Jun 7, 2024 11:41:01 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 7, 2024 11:03:39 GMT -5 andrew said:

I'll read the rest of what you said more slowly, but I saw it on reddit, and then here. I also say the PTSD described as anxiety

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyashanti#:~:text=In%20April%202014%2C%20he%20appeared%20in%20an%20interview,a%20very%20long%20period%20of%20intense%20physical%20pain.

So it's true then? Rather sad and also disappointing, I have to say.

Here's a longer quote from Abe, which should answer your previous question:

Abe: Any illness, or departure from physical well-being, begins at a cellular level—but the overwhelming propensity of your cells is that of thriving. All day, every day, your cells are reclaiming balance at such refined and subtle levels that most people are completely unaware of the power and intelligence of their cellular bodies.

This continual realigning and rebalancing process hinges on cellular communication: communication from one cell to another, and Vibrational communication between the physical and Non-Physical aspects of those cells. And when you are feeling negative emotion, you are in the state of hindering that cellular communication.

While your physical body is extremely resilient—and has evolved to maintain significant balance even while communication is hindered—the evidence of chronic worry or anger or overwhelment does show up in the form of diminished physical well-being.

Most people never put themselves into the dramatic situation where they are without water or food to the point of doing damage to their physical bodies; however, it is not uncommon for people to deprive their bodies of something equally important: alignment with Source Energy.

Often people develop patterns of thought that hold them steadily in a state of negative emotion. And even though they grow accustomed to the feelings of overwhelment, anger, worry, blame, guilt, and so forth, the chronic negative emotions indicate strong patterns of resistance that are hindering to natural Well-Being.

The better you feel, emotionally, the more you are allowing your alignment with Source. The worse you feel, the more you are resisting Source. When no resistance is being offered by you, your natural state of alignment resumes—and so does the alignment between your cells and their Source.

Your sophisticated physical body exists because of the intelligence of your cells. And the intelligence of your cells exists because of their Connection to Source Energy.

When doctors and scientists try to find cures for diseases without taking into consideration the Vibrational relationship between the physical Being and Source Energy, they are looking for cures in all the wrong places. If the resistance that disallowed the Well-Being to begin with is not released, it will show up in the form of another and another disease. Dis-ease is the disallowing of ease. Dis-ease is the disallowance of Well-Being, which is always indicated, pre-disease, in the form of chronic negative emotion.

Your cells, because of their connection to the intelligence of Source Energy, know exactly what to do in order to become the incredible variety of functioning cells in your magnificent physical body. And in the absence of the hindrance that is caused by your resistant negative thought, that communication stays open to clear, up-to-the-moment interaction, keeping your physical body at peak and perfect performance.

In the absence of negative emotion—and therefore the allowance of complete alignment and communication with Source Energy—your physical body can reclaim its balance and recover from any imbalance. And once balance has resumed, it is easy to maintain with consistently good-feeling thoughts.

In the same way that a complete understanding of electricity is unnecessary in order to flip the switch and receive the benefit of it, you do not need to understand the complex inner workings of your physical body. You only need to understand the simple process by which you allow your intelligent cells to do their work.

As you find and practice resonance with the Vibration of the Source within you, communication between the cells of your body flourishes, as does your entire physical body. And it all begins with the simple focusing upon your breathing to “flip the switch” of absolute physical well-being.

Since every disease or unwanted condition exists because Well-Being is being disallowed, then, in the absence of that disallowance, Well-Being will return.

Your physical body is truly a reflection of the thoughts you think, but not only of the thoughts you think about your physical body. And so, understanding the Vibrational basis that supports your physical body is important to your maintaining of a healthy physical body. A regimen of physical actions is not enough. Your body is a pure reflection of the balance of the thoughts that you think.

At the root of your physical condition is the condition of your cells. At the root of the physical condition of your cells is a Vibrational pattern. At the root of that Vibrational pattern is alignment with the Well-Being of the Source within you.

Unwanted diseases or conditions do not suddenly leap into your body or experience, but come about gradually, over time, as a result of your steady deprivation of Energy.

In other words, if every day you are worried about something, or angry about something, you are depriving yourself of the alignment with Source that keeps your physical body in balance and feeling good. And if you are not responding to your negative emotions as they occur and are making an effort to refocus your thoughts to improve your emotional state of being, but are instead doing as most people do learning to “live with” the negative emotion, accepting it as “normal life in the modern world”—then eventually there will be a Vibrational tipping point, and the unwanted physical symptom will appear.

What you think (and how you feel because of your thoughts) and what manifests in your experience always match. You get what you think about, whether it is something wanted or unwanted, and that is especially true in regards to your physical body.

Your physical body is the truest reflection of the beliefs that you hold of anything in your experience. It is helpful to understand that a belief is only a thought that you continue to think—and since you do have control of the thoughts you think, you do have the ability to deliberately project thoughts that have a beneficial effect on your physical body.

Now, interestingly, Satch once posted a quote from RM where he basically explained Abe's "flip the switch" theory and how he applied it in the past, he just used the term 'samadhi' instead of 'alignment'. So RM at least knew about this, but he obviously didn't really care.

Personally, I don't see Adya's realization 'status' as diminished by this, but as said, my view on 'realization' is a bit softer than yours. I do agree with you that realization is transformative, a quantum leap, instantaneous, and there's no way back from it. But....darn it....I find myself agreeing with the chatbot's interpretation (maybe it was reading my mind lol). I'll talk about this more in my next reply to you.

[Reefs]

Jun 8, 2024 12:31:17 GMT -5 @hamburger said:

The apparent confusion clears up nicely if you stop believing ideas from some lady with a cringy fake accent, who claimed that she was "channeling" an entity. Not sure why that is considered a source of truth. Most of us here could produce the same kind of idea stream, by simply journaling. But we wouldn't think to elevate it to a kind of religion.

Ah, finally, the big reveal!

How have you been, Robert? I see you are still the same old crusader.

What's bringing you here this time? And what's up with this donning of fake personas? You don't seem to be very good at it. You always leave a broad trail of breadcrumbs left and right that lead back to your true identity.

I'll give you a few hints for next time's hide and seek game:

1) Watch your mannerisms.

2) Stay off of topics that easily trigger you.

3) Stay away from members that easily trigger you.

4) Don't come here with an ax to grind, or else you will forget points 1-3 in the heat of the moment.

Also, I think you are onto something with the non-comparative and non-competitive angle. You're on the right track with that idea. You just need to actually implement it.

Enjoy your stay and try to honor the no crusades rule this time!

R

[andrew]

Jun 7, 2024 12:23:22 GMT -5 @hamburger said:

Jun 7, 2024 10:56:50 GMT -5 andrew said:

That sounds interesting, was it a public discussion i.e we can see it?

Edit: It sometimes seems a shame that we push people away, as the longtimers here generally already know what we each think. What do you think would push people away less?

No it was private. I don't think I can share it. Don't worry, you're not missing much.  

Good discussions are usually small and have a life of their own. These days I prefer in-person interactions. Online has its pros and cons. My interest started in Jungian psychology and dreams, and then into meditation. So I think it's good to pay attention, become conscious of the currents beneath the surface. Ultimately most people do not want interactions that look like "discussion" on the surface, but are really competition or bullying underneath. Competition can be fun too, as long as it's conscious - ie, you know you're doing that. Outright bullying is almost always unconscious and stops when the person becomes conscious of the underlying superior/inferiority feelings ... unless they are a psychopath, then maybe they don't stop. Haha. Facing an unconscious aspect or shadow (Jung's term) can feel a bit rough or ugly, but it's all good. Whether it's Ramana's technique or the Byron Katie technique you posted - in my view those are just different styles of becoming conscious or waking up to the layers beneath the surface. 

Agree really. My spiritual path began in therapy, doing inner child work and shadow self work. He was a great therapist. Meditation began then too, with the interest in wanting to calm the mind. I stumbled on Eckhart Tolle about 2 years later, and was quite fascinated to learn that apparently I had basically embarked on a 'self-realization/enlightened' path, and hadn't known it.

Anyway, cheers for freshening up the forum.

[andrew]

Jun 7, 2024 12:46:40 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 7, 2024 11:20:25 GMT -5 andrew said:

Well, let me say up front that my view of 'self-realization' is a bit different to yours. I see 'self-realization' and 'enlightenment' as two slightly different things. So I wouldn't necessarily say that Adya's realization isn't 'genuine', on the basis of anxiety/PTSD. Or physical pain. I see self-realization as transformative, and there's no way back from it. It changes everything about our way of experiencing/perceiving. But it doesn't necessarily eliminate all 'negative' conditioning, nor lower vibrational movements of energy. So for me, there's an 'ambiguity' to self-realization. In a sense, I see 'self-realization' as more a theme that some folks share, more than an end-point.

So I'd agree that there was potential room for growth in Niz/Ramana's 'focus' or 'emotional states', and as you say, perhaps some kind of leftover religious beliefs were part of that. I'm not sure I'd agree they were ignoring their inner guidance, because inner guidance can only point us to what is potentially available for us, given our life context. So in the case of Niz/Ramana's life context, it probably wasn't ever appropriate or possible for them to address their leftover beliefs. It's why I said some pages ago, that there are life forces that are as powerful as LOA e.g 'soul contracts'.

To be clear, I don't want to be setting myself up as better than any of the people I mentioned. I have aches and pains, a dodgy back, I have problematic beliefs, poor focus etc lol...I can see it all for what it is, and am also aware that there is a divine timing to change/growth. I try to nudge things along sometimes, but 'pushing' is not useful.

I am not setting myself up as something better either. I am just explaining the simple logic and the mechanics behind it. What people do with it, is a different story. My point is merely that there's a certain order and logic behind all of this. And neither the ignorant nor the sage can escape that. And sages like Niz and RM have always pointed that out, too. They say the body is subject to the play of gunas, karma, i.e. LOA. It also seems to me that Niz and RM were genuine products of their culture, especially religous culture when you look at their attitude to health and wealth, or RK's "gold and women" comments. RK basically saying, you have to give up one for the other. That's standard religious teaching, actually.

But why shouldn't you have it all, i.e. healthy wealthy and wise (or realized)? Seth pointed that out, too. You see, in the self-help sphere, the focus is on healthy and wealthy. In the non-duality sphere, the focus is on wise (or realized). But it's extremely rare that you have both together in a teaching. It seems as if there's a hidden rule that never the twain shall meet. So usually it's either/or. And I find that incredibly silly and unnecessary. That's why I always liked Abe. They say you can and you should have it all, in fact, when you come here, you already had it all. It's natural. 

Now, to top that off, some people here in the past actually used their illness and their stoic tolerance of their negative conditions as an example of some kind of spiritual accomplishment! But when you know about emotions, inner guidance and resistance and physical illness (see Abe quote above), then that's the height of silliness, pure spiritual ego even. But from that attitude you also get BK's "love your cancer" message. So it seems to be actually a rather popular concept that suffering is good for the soul, which boggles the mind, because it goes so counter to what is natural. Zhuangzi would have a field day with such people.

So it's interesting that it comes down to health in the end all the time with these gurus. Sadhguru was another recent example, he had to have emergency surgery because of brain bleeding. Now interestingly again, Sadhguru comes from the yoga tradition and he knows about alignment. And as far as I can tell, he recovered quickly and is doing very well again. So it seems he knew what to do and did it.

I think what trips these more popular or even famous gurus up every time is their followers and their (usually unrealistic) expectations which these gurus either consciously or unconsciously try to live up to. Sadhguru is a good example again. Before that incident, he had a headache for quite a while. But he was working on an important project and there were time schedules and thousands of people waiting so he ignored that. At the time of the event, he had severe headaches and then a breakdown and was rushed to the hospital. So this is exactly what Abe explained in the quote. And Sadhguru knows that, of course.

Another thing is selfishness, which has a really bad rap in spirituality in general. The more unselfish the more saintly in the eyes of the public. Hence mother Theresa was considered a saint. But then they discovered her letters where she confessed that she actually felt godforsaken most of her life. So what was that unselfishness good for? It was apparently mostly fake.

Spirituality is a tangled mess. If you don't know about and don't follow your inner guidance, you will surely get lost and/or lead astray by others who are also lost.

Okay, I got a bit carried away, hehe.

'Why can't we have it all?'...is a great question, and a pertinent one. I believe we have entered a phase in which the potential of 'having it all' is there for a lot of people. It really is a time to be asking that question. Though I want to disclaim that by saying that 'having it all' can look like different things to different people. For my daughter, it would probably look like taking care of animals all day, in a joyful way. Individuality is sooo diverse. And I agree that 'selfishness' gets a bad rap.

I guess I reserve the concept of 'enlightenment' for self-realization plus alignment. It's an incredibly grandiose word, so I might as well save it for a grandiose definition lol. I'll say that I don't believe that all 'self-realized' folks are 'contracted' to have the alignment too. The self-realization is enough. That's what they came here to do, and to offer the world, and that's cool. As the chatbot basically said, perhaps it's about showing folks that there is a spiritual dimension to all conditions, including illness, or poverty or whatever.

[Reefs]

Jun 8, 2024 22:21:59 GMT -5 andrew said:

Jun 7, 2024 12:23:22 GMT -5 @hamburger said:

No it was private. I don't think I can share it. Don't worry, you're not missing much.  

Good discussions are usually small and have a life of their own. These days I prefer in-person interactions. Online has its pros and cons. My interest started in Jungian psychology and dreams, and then into meditation. So I think it's good to pay attention, become conscious of the currents beneath the surface. Ultimately most people do not want interactions that look like "discussion" on the surface, but are really competition or bullying underneath. Competition can be fun too, as long as it's conscious - ie, you know you're doing that. Outright bullying is almost always unconscious and stops when the person becomes conscious of the underlying superior/inferiority feelings ... unless they are a psychopath, then maybe they don't stop. Haha. Facing an unconscious aspect or shadow (Jung's term) can feel a bit rough or ugly, but it's all good. Whether it's Ramana's technique or the Byron Katie technique you posted - in my view those are just different styles of becoming conscious or waking up to the layers beneath the surface. 

Agree really. My spiritual path began in therapy, doing inner child work and shadow self work. He was a great therapist. Meditation began then too, with the interest in wanting to calm the mind. I stumbled on Eckhart Tolle about 2 years later, and was quite fascinated to learn that apparently I had basically embarked on a 'self-realization/enlightened' path, and hadn't known it.

Anyway, cheers for freshening up the forum.

Andrew, it's Robert!

And he's back on his anti-new age / pro-science crusade.

[andrew]

Jun 8, 2024 22:33:48 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 8, 2024 22:21:59 GMT -5 andrew said:

Agree really. My spiritual path began in therapy, doing inner child work and shadow self work. He was a great therapist. Meditation began then too, with the interest in wanting to calm the mind. I stumbled on Eckhart Tolle about 2 years later, and was quite fascinated to learn that apparently I had basically embarked on a 'self-realization/enlightened' path, and hadn't known it.

Anyway, cheers for freshening up the forum.

Andrew, it's Robert!

And he's back on his anti-new age / pro-science crusade.

I agree Hamburger does sound a bit like Robert, but don't recall Robert ever talking about Jung being an influence....so....I don't know.

[Reefs]

Jun 8, 2024 22:14:13 GMT -5 andrew said:

Jun 7, 2024 11:41:01 GMT -5 Reefs said:

So it's true then? Rather sad and also disappointing, I have to say.

Here's a longer quote from Abe, which should answer your previous question:

Now, interestingly, Satch once posted a quote from RM where he basically explained Abe's "flip the switch" theory and how he applied it in the past, he just used the term 'samadhi' instead of 'alignment'. So RM at least knew about this, but he obviously didn't really care.

Personally, I don't see Adya's realization 'status' as diminished by this, but as said, my view on 'realization' is a bit softer than yours. I do agree with you that realization is transformative, a quantum leap, instantaneous, and there's no way back from it. But....darn it....I find myself agreeing with the chatbot's interpretation (maybe it was reading my mind lol). I'll talk about this more in my next reply to you.

Let me explain my perspective:

I'm a big fan of Campbell's "Mastery of the the 2 worlds" model. You need to always keep this in mind when you read my comments about other teachers or gurus, or else it won't make sense or seem dismissive and one-uppish.

The two worlds are the relative realm and the absolute realm. Mastery here means that you move with great ease, can go back and forth between these two realms or contexts or perspectives without getting attached to or lost in either. In fact, the next step in Campbell's model is the disappearance of that distinction altogether. That's Zhuangzi's roaming freely stage.

That's why I talk about deliberate creation and non-duality, even though there's no actual connection between them. But they are two sides of the same coin. If you only exclusively focus on one, your perspective will become lopsided and your perspective and advice either banal and shallow (the relative side) or impractical and out of touch with real every day life (the absolute side).

Now, if you use that model and look into the spiritual teachers scene, what you will usually see is that teachers are only masters of one world. In the new age self-help and even yoga scene, it's the relative realm. In the advaita non-duality scene, it's the absolute realm. So those teachers are not whole beings. That's why you have a lot of sick gurus in the advaita scene and a lot of egomaniacs and spiritual materialists in the self-help scene.

So, just for the sake of argument, let's say Adya has mastery of the absolute realm. But the fact that he has been in severe pain for the past 20 years shows that he hasn't got mastery of the relative realm. So he's sending out a mixed message. It's not a message of total well-being, total peace and ease and joy, obviously. Fundamentally, it's not much different with RM, Niz and RK except for the fact that they didn't complain, they were fully rooted in the absolute realm. That seems to be the main difference. RM, RK and Niz were predominantly living in the absolute context, and only occasionally visited the relative context. With the YouTube gurus it seems to be the other way around. They seem to be predominantly living in the relative context (aka "ordinary and humbled human beings like everybody else") and only occasional visitors of the absolute context, some may even just speak from memory when they talk about the absolute context (certainly Jeff, not sure about Adya anymore).

So you often have gurus who are authorities in the absolute realm, but who can't take care of themselves in the relative realm. And that's just unnecessary. Especially when they look down on everything that relates to the relative realm, like ignoring physical pain as if it weren't something important that should be dealt with. So there's a lot of mixed messages coming from these gurus and they often give very impractical and (if you understand LOA) illogical advice on day to day matters.

Point being, if you only aim for mastery of the absolute realm, you are selling yourself and your followers short. It's going to be a one-dimensional message or teaching that produces one-dimensional, unbalanced beings. But if you teach both, then you have a clear and pure message and the result are whole and balanced beings. That's why I stick with Abe and Advaita.

[Reefs]

Jun 8, 2024 22:45:53 GMT -5 andrew said:

Jun 8, 2024 22:33:48 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Andrew, it's Robert!

And he's back on his anti-new age / pro-science crusade.

I agree Hamburger does sound a bit like Robert, but don't recall Robert ever talking about Jung being an influence....so....I don't know.

Trust me, it's him. As a frequent target of his wrath, I know a Robert when I see one! 

[Reefs]

Jun 8, 2024 19:22:16 GMT -5 justlikeyou said:

Jun 8, 2024 9:10:38 GMT -5 Reefs said:

PTSD is the perspective of being separated from Source. But TPTPAU is the perspective of being at one with Source, or being Source. But that's not Adya's experience right now and probably hasn't been his experience for a long time.

Question: Can a realized teacher become separated from Source by an onset of PTSD?

ChatGPT: From a non-dual perspective, a realized teacher cannot truly become separated from Source, even if they experience PTSD. Here's why:

Nature of Realization: In non-dual teachings, realization refers to the direct, experiential understanding that one's true nature is the Source itself—pure, unchanging awareness or consciousness. This realization is often described as irreversible because it reveals the fundamental nature of reality, which is always present.

Illusion of Separation: While the mind and body may undergo experiences such as PTSD, these experiences occur within the realm of relative phenomena. The sense of separation that PTSD might bring is seen as an illusion from the standpoint of non-dual realization. The underlying awareness, or Source, remains unaffected and ever-present.

Continued Human Experience: A realized teacher, despite their profound understanding, continues to live a human life, which includes the potential for psychological and physiological challenges. However, their relationship to these experiences is transformed by their realization. They may experience the symptoms of PTSD, but they recognize these symptoms as arising within the space of awareness that they are.

Integration and Compassion: Many non-dual teachers emphasize the importance of integrating realization into everyday life. This includes dealing with personal and psychological challenges in a way that aligns with their understanding of non-separation. Their experience of PTSD can be seen as part of the play of consciousness, held within the greater context of their realization.

Therefore, while a realized teacher may experience the symptoms of PTSD, this does not equate to an actual separation from Source. Their fundamental realization of oneness and the nature of consciousness remains intact, even amidst challenging human experiences.

No disagreement, really. But you are asking the wrong questions. Chatbot just gives you the perspective from the absolute perspective, the standard non-dual claptrap that we are all too familiar with. And Adya posted something similar already in his goodbye letter. But the absolute perspective is not Adya's day-to-day experience, obviously. We all know how it is in theory, and Adya too, but this is real life, it's just not like that for Adya in real live, obviously, or else he wouldn't retire and identify himself with a psychiatric label and even take medication (if that's even true). RM, RK and Niz never did that. They seem to have been gurus of a totally different caliber.

So maybe try asking this:

1) Can a realized teacher feel separated from Source by an onset of PTSD and feel at one with Source at the same time?

or

2) Can a realized teacher temporarily forget his realization in a state of severe physical pain or an episode of PTSD?

[laughter]

Jun 8, 2024 11:38:34 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 8, 2024 10:18:08 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

I added a couple of things: Chronic pain can do nasty things to our brain-processing/psychology. "Neurons that fire together wire together." Donald Hebb

Yes, the body and mind are one unit, but there is a distinction between the mind and the conscious mind. Probably conservatively, 99% of the mind is subconscious, below conscious level brain processing. Have you ever got a cramp? Not just an ordinary cramp, but one where the muscle just locks down in a knot. How long can you stand that? A few minutes and you'll find something to stop it. Pain can screw up the circuits where the mind-can't-reach. I've never heard of physical pain tied to PTSD, but it makes sense.

Added note, relaxing the muscles regularly is one of the best things you can do all-round. (A body at ease will result in a mind at ease, it works both ways).

Again, there are warnings signs along the way before you end up with chronic pain, first very subtle, then not so subtle and then hard to ignore and then almost impossible to ignore. If you only notice it when you it is impossible to ignore, then you've been on autopilot most of the time. And so yes, pain gets your attention, that's the whole point of pain, isn't it?

Yes, one unit, so it works both ways. That's why EFT works. Just ask Andrew. However, the leverage is with the non-physical part (mind), not the physical part. That's how instant healing happens, by dealing with the mind, not with the body. If you only work on the body, once you stop working on it and don't work on the mind as well, you're back to square one after each session. Working on the body is also very time intensive. There's just no leverage.

I noticed that once when I had to edit some important documents which took about a week. Apparently there was tension because it was important and I had to get it done as soon as possible. So I had chronic pain in my shoulder. Now, I was able to manage it, did some yoga, stretching and all kinds of things and it really helped. But the next day I was back at square one again. Also, the time I spent on these exercises made me realize that this is not the right approach. Anyway, literally the moment I finished those documents the pain disappeared. No exercise or stretching necessary. That's how simple that is. You see, the easier route would have been to not take the whole project all too seriously etc. but when you are under time constraints and in full action mode, those options don't even occur to you. That's why it is so important to seek alignment first and only then get into action mode. So that was a good lesson in LOA and inner guidance again. But physical pain always tends to get people's attention eventually. It's just a question of when people feel that they have suffered enough. Because when they have decided that they have suffered enough, they actually do something about it and look for real solutions. In Adya's case he apparently waited 20 years. Totally unnecessary. Now, if Adya finds it cool that he can tolerate extreme pain for two decades, that's fine for him. But his followers will now glorify him for his ability to tolerate pain, they will probably conclude that stoically tolerating extreme pain is actually a main an indicator of sagehood. And this is where this goes all wrong. They will follow in his footsteps and end up the same way as he did.

That's why you should only trust your inner guidance, and never let it be replaced by outer guidance, no matter how enlightened your favorite guru appears or how logical your theories. You don't need any go-to guys. If you rely on your go-to guys, you're in trouble sooner or later.

Not having or recommending any go-to guys doesn't mean that you think that you are better than everybody else. Quite the contrary. We are all equals among equals, we all are Buddhas, and we all have inner guidance. The only difference is that some know it that they are Buddhas and that they can trust their inner guidance and others don't know it yet and don't trust their inner guidance anymore. There's no reason for any one-upmanship or sour grapes moralism. No one has any reason to feel superior and no one has any reason to feel inferior either.

There is a conceit in the current medical establishment when it comes to the mind/body split, and the bias towards the primacy of focus on the physical mechanisms of the individuated body. Assuming no major cultural discontinuity (like, say, that happened in Roman literature, mathematics and engineering after the fall),it's easy to imagine some future, progressed understanding of the effect of the mind on the body that will make the current pharma industry seem to some future medical establishment the way that the current establishment derides the past use of leeches, laudanum, and all manner of electrical quackaery.

So it seems to me that it's really just this simple: intellect has no understanding of what it is ignorant of. True cultural humility (as opposed to the existential, requiring pointing) acknowledges this without demonizing some of the amazing accomplishments achieved via intellect. The flip-side to that is to layer over the ignorance with an arrogant attachment to what people THINK they know.

[Reefs]

Jun 9, 2024 4:05:34 GMT -5 laughter said:

There is a conceit in the current medical establishment when it comes to the mind/body split, and the bias towards the primacy of focus on the physical mechanisms of the individuated body. Assuming no major cultural discontinuity (like, say, that happened in Roman literature, mathematics and engineering after the fall),it's easy to imagine some future, progressed understanding of the effect of the mind on the body that will make the current pharma industry seem to some future medical establishment the way that the current establishment derides the past use of leeches, laudanum, and all manner of electrical quackaery.

So it seems to me that it's really just this simple: intellect has no understanding of what it is ignorant of. True cultural humility (as opposed to the existential, requiring pointing) acknowledges this without demonizing some of the amazing accomplishments achieved via intellect. The flip-side to that is to layer over the ignorance with an arrogant attachment to what people THINK they know.

Scientism is very strong in Western culture. Even on a spiritual forum like this one, which surprises me every time.

SDP mentioned Kali Yuga, he thinks we are in Kali Yuga. I don't think so. Kali Yuga is not a technological age. We are certainly in Dwapara Yuga already, which is the technological age. The Yuga theory is linked to astronomy, it's the cyclical view of history and the rise and fall of civilizations. One full cycle of the rise and fall of civilizations is about 24,000 years. This, btw, is a very important concept in traditional astrology (sidereal astrology) where the starting point of the zodiac has to be constantly recalibrated, as opposed to modern astrology (tropical astrology) which uses the equinoxes as reference points.

 Here's from Yukteswar:

We learn from Oriental astronomy that moons revolve around their planets, and planets turning on their axes revolve with their moons round the sun; and the sun, with its planets and their moons, takes some star for its dual and revolves round it in about 24,000 years of our earth—a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac. The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Vishnunabhi, which is the seat of the creative power, Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates dharma, the mental virtue of the internal world.

When the sun in its revolution round its dual comes to the place nearest to this grand centre, the seat of Brahma (an event which takes place when the Autumnal Equinox comes to the first point of Aries), dharma, the mental virtue, becomes so much developed that man can easily comprehend all, even the mysteries of Spirit.

The Autumnal Equinox will be falling, at the beginning of the twentieth century, among the fixed stars of the Virgo constellation, and in the early part of the Ascending Dwapara Yuga

From 11,501 b.c., when the Autumnal Equinox was on the first point of Aries, the sun began to move away from the point of its orbit nearest to the grand centre toward the point farthest from it, and accordingly the intellectual power of man began to diminish. During the 4800 years which the sun took to pass through one of the Satya Couples or 4/20th part of its orbit, the intellect of man lost altogether the power of grasping spiritual knowledge. During the 3600 years following, which the sun took to pass through the Descending Treta Yuga, the intellect gradually lost all power of grasping the knowledge of divine magnetism. During the 2400 years next following, while the sun passed through the Descending Dwapara Yuga, the human intellect lost its power of grasping the knowledge of electricities and their attributes. In 1200 more years the sun passed through the Descending Kali Yuga and reached the point in its orbit which is farthest from the grand centre; the Autumnal Equinox was on the first point of Libra. The intellectual power of man was so much diminished that it could no longer comprehend anything beyond the gross material of creation. The period around a.d. 500 was thus the darkest part of Kali Yuga and of the whole cycle of 24,000 years. History indeed bears out the accuracy of these ancient calculations of the Indian rishis, and records the widespread ignorance and suffering in all nations at that period.

From a.d. 499 onward, the sun began to advance toward the grand centre, and the intellect of man started gradually to develop. During the 1100 years of the Ascending Kali Yuga, which brings us to a.d. 1599, the human intellect was so dense that it could not comprehend the electricities, Sukshmabhuta, the fine matters of creation. In the political world also, generally speaking, there was no peace in any kingdom.

Subsequent to this period, when the 100-year transitional sandhi of Kali Yuga set in, to effect a union with the following Dwapara Yuga, men began to notice the existence of fine matters, panchatanmatra or the attributes of electricities; and political peace began to be established.

About a.d. 1600, William Gilbert discovered magnetic forces and observed the presence of electricity in all material substances. In 1609 Kepler discovered important laws of astronomy, and Galileo produced a telescope. In 1621 Drebbel of Holland invented the microscope. About 1670 Newton discovered the law of gravitation. In 1700 Thomas Savery made use of a steam engine in raising water. Twenty years later Stephen Gray discovered the action of electricity on the human body.

In the political world, people began to have respect for themselves, and civilization advanced in many ways. England united with Scotland and became a powerful kingdom. Napoleon Bonaparte introduced his new legal code into southern Europe. America won its independence, and many parts of Europe were peaceful.

With the advance of science, the world began to be covered with railways and telegraphic wires. By the help of steam engines, electric machines, and many other instruments, fine matters were brought into practical use, although their nature was not clearly understood. In 1899, on completion of the period of 200 years of Dwapara Sandhi, the time of mutation, the true Dwapara Yuga of 2000 years will commence and will give to mankind in general a thorough understanding of the electricities and their attributes.

Such is the great influence of Time which governs the universe. No man can overcome this influence except him who, blessed with pure love, the heavenly gift of nature, becomes divine; being baptized in the sacred stream Pranava (the holy Aum vibration), he comprehends the Kingdom of God.

Swami Sri Yukteswar - The Holy Science, Introduction

So, basically this is about the consensus trance, the matrix and its up and down cycles. Also keep in mind that Yukteswar wrote this in the 1890s, so he wrote it from that perspective.

Now, I've' written recently about health and electricity already. So we are certainly moving in the direction Yukteswar indicated. It's just that science, with its basic tenets, is extremely slow to catch up.

Also, the beauty of the cyclical model is that it can explain things like the pyramids or the Baghdad battery. The linear model of history cannot explain this. 

So there are a lot of alternative perspectives on man, civilization and history that are all readily available to those with an open mind. Common consensus trance mind is likely going to reject this as preposterous and unscientific or pseudo-science, of course. And by doing so, they close the door to alternative solutions to health and general well-being. 

But as BK and I keep saying: suffering is a choice. To each their own. As Yukteswar indicated, the blessings that become normal in the golden age and are seen as supernatural in the dark age are actually always available to each individual, right here right now. But one has to break away from the consensus trance to realize that. And that's not easy. Just think of Tesla or Schauberger.

[justlikeyou]

Jun 8, 2024 23:30:09 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 8, 2024 19:22:16 GMT -5 justlikeyou said:

Question: Can a realized teacher become separated from Source by an onset of PTSD?

ChatGPT: From a non-dual perspective, a realized teacher cannot truly become separated from Source, even if they experience PTSD. Here's why:

Nature of Realization: In non-dual teachings, realization refers to the direct, experiential understanding that one's true nature is the Source itself—pure, unchanging awareness or consciousness. This realization is often described as irreversible because it reveals the fundamental nature of reality, which is always present.

Illusion of Separation: While the mind and body may undergo experiences such as PTSD, these experiences occur within the realm of relative phenomena. The sense of separation that PTSD might bring is seen as an illusion from the standpoint of non-dual realization. The underlying awareness, or Source, remains unaffected and ever-present.

Continued Human Experience: A realized teacher, despite their profound understanding, continues to live a human life, which includes the potential for psychological and physiological challenges. However, their relationship to these experiences is transformed by their realization. They may experience the symptoms of PTSD, but they recognize these symptoms as arising within the space of awareness that they are.

Integration and Compassion: Many non-dual teachers emphasize the importance of integrating realization into everyday life. This includes dealing with personal and psychological challenges in a way that aligns with their understanding of non-separation. Their experience of PTSD can be seen as part of the play of consciousness, held within the greater context of their realization.

Therefore, while a realized teacher may experience the symptoms of PTSD, this does not equate to an actual separation from Source. Their fundamental realization of oneness and the nature of consciousness remains intact, even amidst challenging human experiences.

No disagreement, really. But you are asking the wrong questions. Chatbot just gives you the perspective from the absolute perspective, the standard non-dual claptrap that we are all too familiar with. And Adya posted something similar already in his goodbye letter. But the absolute perspective is not Adya's day-to-day experience, obviously. We all know how it is in theory, and Adya too, but this is real life, it's just not like that for Adya in real live, obviously, or else he wouldn't retire and identify himself with a psychiatric label and even take medication (if that's even true). RM, RK and Niz never did that. They seem to have been gurus of a totally different caliber.

So maybe try asking this:

1) Can a realized teacher feel separated from Source by an onset of PTSD and feel at one with Source at the same time?

or

2) Can a realized teacher temporarily forget his realization in a state of severe physical pain or an episode of PTSD?

Question: Can a realized teacher feel separated from Source by an onset of PTSD and feel at one with Source at the same time?

ChatGPT: From a non-dual perspective, it is possible for a realized teacher to experience the symptoms of PTSD, which might include feelings of separation from Source, while simultaneously maintaining a deeper awareness of their oneness with Source. This reflects the paradoxical nature of non-dual realization, where the absolute and the relative coexist. Here’s how this can be understood:

Simultaneous Experience of Separation and Oneness

Relative and Absolute Perspectives:

Relative Perspective: At the relative level of everyday human experience, a realized teacher might feel the intense emotions, thoughts, and sensations associated with PTSD. These experiences can create a sense of distress and perceived separation from the peace and unity of Source.

Absolute Perspective: At the same time, from the absolute perspective of their deeper realization, the teacher recognizes that these experiences are arising within the unchanging, ever-present field of awareness that they truly are. They understand that their true nature remains untouched by these transient experiences.

Non-Dual Awareness:

Non-dual realization involves the recognition that all experiences, whether of separation or unity, are manifestations of the same underlying reality. The teacher sees that the feelings of separation are simply movements within the totality of consciousness and do not negate their fundamental oneness with Source.

Integration of Experience:

A realized teacher integrates their understanding of non-duality with their human experiences. They may feel the emotional and psychological impact of PTSD while simultaneously holding the awareness that these feelings do not define their true nature. This integration allows them to navigate their experiences with greater equanimity and compassion.
Embracing Paradox:

Non-duality embraces the paradox of being both fully human and fully divine. A realized teacher can experience human vulnerabilities, such as PTSD, while also embodying the deep, unshakable peace of their true nature. This paradox is a hallmark of non-dual realization, where the apparent contradictions of human life are seen as expressions of the one reality.

Practical Implications:

In practical terms, a realized teacher experiencing PTSD might engage in therapeutic practices, seek support, and address their symptoms just like anyone else. Their realization does not remove the need for compassionate self-care but rather informs it with a deeper understanding of their inherent wholeness.

Conclusion

In summary, a realized teacher can indeed feel separated from Source due to the onset of PTSD while simultaneously maintaining their deeper awareness of oneness with Source. This reflects the non-dual understanding that the relative experiences of separation do not ultimately negate the absolute truth of unity and peace. The teacher’s realization allows them to hold both experiences—of separation and oneness—within the broader context of their non-dual understanding.

Question: Can a realized teacher temporarily forget his realization in a state of severe physical pain or an episode of PTSD?

ChatGPT: From a non-dual perspective, a realized teacher's fundamental understanding of their true nature as the Source, or pure awareness, is considered to be irreversible and unchanging. However, it's possible that in moments of severe physical pain or during an episode of PTSD, their attention might be temporarily absorbed in the intense experiences, potentially causing a momentary obscuring of their realization. This doesn't mean the realization itself is lost, but rather that the immediate awareness of it can be overshadowed by the overwhelming nature of the present experience.

Here are a few points to clarify this nuanced situation:

Nature of Realization

Irreversibility of Realization:

Realization in non-dual traditions is often described as a fundamental shift in understanding that is permanent. Once the true nature of self as pure awareness is recognized, this understanding is not forgotten in the same way one forgets ordinary knowledge. It is more akin to a baseline awareness that remains, even if not always in the foreground of conscious experience.

Temporary Obscuring:

Severe physical pain or intense PTSD episodes can be incredibly absorbing and distressing, drawing attention away from the deeper, peaceful awareness. In these moments, the teacher might seem to "forget" their realization, in the sense that their immediate experience is dominated by the pain or psychological turmoil.
Background Awareness:

Even when attention is fully absorbed in intense experiences, the underlying realization often remains as a subtle background awareness. This can manifest as a sense of inner stability or a quick return to the recognition of their true nature once the immediate intensity of the experience subsides.
Practical Examples and Integration

Human Vulnerability:

Realized teachers are still human and subject to the same vulnerabilities and challenges as anyone else. Their bodies and minds can experience pain and psychological distress. Acknowledging this humanity doesn't diminish their realization but highlights the integration of non-dual understanding with human experience.

Compassionate Response:

The temporary obscuring of realization in moments of severe distress can foster greater compassion and understanding in the teacher. It provides an opportunity to relate more deeply to the suffering of others and to navigate these experiences with wisdom and care.

Return to Awareness:

Once the acute phase of pain or PTSD episode passes, a realized teacher typically returns quickly to the clear recognition of their true nature. This quick return is often facilitated by their deep familiarity with the nature of awareness and the transient nature of all experiences.

Conclusion

In summary, while a realized teacher's fundamental understanding of their true nature is irreversible, they may temporarily experience an obscuring of this realization during episodes of severe physical pain or PTSD. This temporary obscuring doesn't mean the realization is lost, but rather that their immediate focus is on the intense experience. Once the intensity subsides, they typically return to the clear recognition of their true nature, demonstrating the resilient and enduring nature of non-dual realization.

Question: Could they forget for 15 years?

ChatGPT: The idea that a realized teacher could completely forget their realization for an extended period, such as 15 years, is generally not consistent with the understanding of non-dual realization as it is presented in traditional teachings. Non-dual realization is often described as a profound and irreversible shift in understanding that permanently changes one's perception of self and reality. Here are a few considerations:

Nature of Non-Dual Realization

Irreversible Insight:

Non-dual realization involves a deep and irreversible insight into the true nature of self as pure awareness or consciousness. This realization is often likened to waking up from a dream; once you have woken up, you cannot un-know that you are awake.

Underlying Awareness:

Even if a realized teacher goes through intense experiences or psychological challenges, the underlying awareness of their true nature usually remains intact. The depth of realization often allows them to remain connected to this awareness, even in difficult circumstances.

Extended Periods of Obscuration

Temporary Obscuration vs. Complete Forgetting:

While temporary obscurations of this realization can occur, such as during moments of intense pain or psychological distress, completely forgetting the realization for an extended period like 15 years would be highly unusual. The nature of realization is such that it fundamentally transforms the individual’s understanding of their existence.

Chronic Psychological Conditions:

In extremely rare cases, severe and chronic psychological conditions might deeply obscure the immediate awareness of realization. However, even in such cases, the underlying realization typically remains and can resurface once the intense period passes or the condition is managed.

Continual Practice and Integration:

Realized teachers often emphasize the importance of continual practice and integration of realization into daily life. This ongoing process helps to maintain the clarity of realization and to navigate life's challenges from a place of deep understanding.

Exceptional Circumstances

Severe Trauma or Brain Injury:

Severe trauma or brain injury might lead to significant disruptions in cognitive and psychological functioning. In such exceptional cases, there might be a temporary disconnection from the immediate awareness of realization, but the fundamental insight into one's true nature is usually not completely erased.

Mystical and Psychological Perspectives:

From a mystical or psychological perspective, periods of seeming disconnection might be viewed as part of a larger process of spiritual growth and deepening. These periods can sometimes lead to an even deeper and more integrated realization once they are resolved.

Conclusion

While it is theoretically possible for a realized teacher to experience significant obscuration of their realization due to severe and chronic conditions, completely forgetting their realization for a period as long as 15 years would be highly unusual and not typical of the non-dual understanding. The nature of non-dual realization is such that it creates a permanent shift in perception, making a complete and prolonged forgetting unlikely. The underlying realization usually remains intact and can resurface even after periods of intense psychological or physical challenges.

[stardustpilgrim]

Jun 8, 2024 23:08:03 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Jun 8, 2024 22:14:13 GMT -5 andrew said:

Personally, I don't see Adya's realization 'status' as diminished by this, but as said, my view on 'realization' is a bit softer than yours. I do agree with you that realization is transformative, a quantum leap, instantaneous, and there's no way back from it. But....darn it....I find myself agreeing with the chatbot's interpretation (maybe it was reading my mind lol). I'll talk about this more in my next reply to you.

Let me explain my perspective:

I'm a big fan of Campbell's "Mastery of the the 2 worlds" model. You need to always keep this in mind when you read my comments about other teachers or gurus, or else it won't make sense or seem dismissive and one-uppish.

The two worlds are the relative realm and the absolute realm. Mastery here means that you move with great ease, can go back and forth between these two realms or contexts or perspectives without getting attached to or lost in either. In fact, the next step in Campbell's model is the disappearance of that distinction altogether. That's Zhuangzi's roaming freely stage.

That's why I talk about deliberate creation and non-duality, even though there's no actual connection between them. But they are two sides of the same coin. If you only exclusively focus on one, your perspective will become lopsided and your perspective and advice either banal and shallow (the relative side) or impractical and out of touch with real every day life (the absolute side).

Now, if you use that model and look into the spiritual teachers scene, what you will usually see is that teachers are only masters of one world. In the new age self-help and even yoga scene, it's the relative realm. In the advaita non-duality scene, it's the absolute realm. So those teachers are not whole beings. That's why you have a lot of sick gurus in the advaita scene and a lot of egomaniacs and spiritual materialists in the self-help scene.

So, just for the sake of argument, let's say Adya has mastery of the absolute realm. But the fact that he has been in severe pain for the past 20 years shows that he hasn't got mastery of the relative realm. So he's sending out a mixed message. It's not a message of total well-being, total peace and ease and joy, obviously. Fundamentally, it's not much different with RM, Niz and RK except for the fact that they didn't complain, they were fully rooted in the absolute realm. That seems to be the main difference. RM, RK and Niz were predominantly living in the absolute context, and only occasionally visited the relative context. With the YouTube gurus it seems to be the other way around. They seem to be predominantly living in the relative context (aka "ordinary and humbled human beings like everybody else") and only occasional visitors of the absolute context, some may even just speak from memory when they talk about the absolute context (certainly Jeff, not sure about Adya anymore).

So you often have gurus who are authorities in the absolute realm, but who can't take care of themselves in the relative realm. And that's just unnecessary. Especially when they look down on everything that relates to the relative realm, like ignoring physical pain as if it weren't something important that should be dealt with. So there's a lot of mixed messages coming from these gurus and they often give very impractical and (if you understand LOA) illogical advice on day to day matters.

Point being, if you only aim for mastery of the absolute realm, you are selling yourself and your followers short. It's going to be a one-dimensional message or teaching that produces one-dimensional, unbalanced beings. But if you teach both, then you have a clear and pure message and the result are whole and balanced beings. That's why I stick with Abe and Advaita.

A modified version, in brief. It's like the Zen Ox Herding pictures.

Stage 16. Thanks