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Post by zazeniac on May 28, 2024 11:55:34 GMT -5
Not focused on what happened to this body/mind sixty years ago or a thousand years ago. My focus is the wound that mars the present. Not so much the wound itself, but glossing, suppressing, denial of it etc. The story isn't important. Not that it shouldn't be told. It can be retold a thousand times with no avail or relief. The important thing is what is done with it. I focus on the present, the moment, because it makes it impossible for me to ignore, to deny, to suppress. It helps me make room. Punification is not about the past or future. yeah, to be clear, by causes, I meant...for example, the beliefs that create the emotions. So pretty immediate causes. Or perhaps a bit less immediate, perhaps any traumas that you've experienced in your life. This is where Zen comes in handy. If I bash you on the head, it's only the belief that your body is real that pisses you off. Haha! But I see your point if you believe the rope is a snake, there'll be misplaced fear. I believe all beliefs should be opposed and defied including our belief in gravity. Some beliefs are fact based. This body/mind is pretty grounded. No rope/ snakes. We've all experienced trauma. Some say birth is traumatic. |
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Post by zazeniac on May 28, 2024 12:06:13 GMT -5
Fritz Perls was the king of quick analysis. The past doesn't have to be dealt with, the past makes itself known in the present. zazeniac is correct, we only have to deal with crap that comes up, now. This is not so easy to see, when we encounter it, we think it's somebody else's carp. But if it comes to your door, it's your crap. My experience is that when crap comes up persistently, delving into the past can be useful. (of course, even delving into the past happens in the present) Fritz Perls was a significant aspect of my old NLP training. nlp-mentor.com/fritz-perls/Whatever helps you not deny and ignore is useful. I've been over the same ground so often it seemed a way of avoiding how it was manifesting and continues to manifest in the present. I sit with it. It helps to realize many things. It's like ouro's freedom blue print. Only his was more detailed than mine or sdp. It's how I play chess. I trade off to simplify the game. Focus on the present. Whatever is there. The rest takes care of itself. I'm off for some Chinese takeout. Take care. |
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Post by andrew on May 28, 2024 12:27:28 GMT -5
My experience is that when crap comes up persistently, delving into the past can be useful. (of course, even delving into the past happens in the present) Fritz Perls was a significant aspect of my old NLP training. nlp-mentor.com/fritz-perls/Whatever helps you not deny and ignore is useful. I've been over the same ground so often it seemed a way of avoiding how it was manifesting and continues to manifest in the present. I sit with it. It helps to realize many things. It's like ouro's freedom blue print. Only his was more detailed than mine or sdp. It's how I play chess. I trade off to simplify the game. Focus on the present. Whatever is there. The rest takes care of itself. I'm off for some Chinese takeout. Take care. Yeah I get you. And it's certainly true that I have sometimes used tools as a way of avoiding something...I gave an example in the Byron Katie thread. I know when the energy around an issue is dissipating when the capacity to even use the tool is no longer there. Nothing else then to do but surrender, allow, witness. Take care. |
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Post by andrew on May 28, 2024 12:29:47 GMT -5
BK ''Everyone is a mirror image of yourself-your own thinking coming back to you.'' BK ''The clearer your mind gets, the more it projects a friendly universe, until one day it occurs to you that you haven’t had a problem for a very long time.'' I can only see everything from my own perspective, sorry. This would be the distinction between what Gurdjieff called voluntary suffering and intentional suffering. BK is correct, but doesn't go far enough, she has reached the point of the end of voluntary suffering. But there is still stuff buried even deeper that has to be dealt with (eventually, meaning now or another life). To make this stuff arise, in yourself, intentional suffering is necessary. Because BK is correct doesn't mean that's the end of the journey. At a certain point, nothing in life that happens can make you suffer, no circumstance. That's when you begin intentional suffering. But you have to understand the why of it. (And an odd aside. The Gurdjieff teaching has several names, the 4th Way, and simply, The Work. Is it a coincidence BK called her method, Work? I don't know. Have you ever seen her discuss how she came up with that name?) A very unique interesting story, when Hui Neng became the 6th Patriarch. His teacher gave him the bowl and the robe, and told him he had better leave, as the other students wouldn't understand. So he left. But a particularly (former)-bad-guy-student was indeed angry, and he and another went after Hui Neng. They found him, and threatened him. Hui Neng simply laid the bowl and robe down, and said, take them if you need them. That completely disarmed the (former) bad guy student, and he immediately accepted Hui Neng as his teacher. Intentional suffering is a very interesting idea. I'm in the car, I'll get back to you. |
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Post by zazeniac on May 28, 2024 12:31:53 GMT -5
Whatever helps you not deny and ignore is useful. I've been over the same ground so often it seemed a way of avoiding how it was manifesting and continues to manifest in the present. I sit with it. It helps to realize many things. It's like ouro's freedom blue print. Only his was more detailed than mine or sdp. It's how I play chess. I trade off to simplify the game. Focus on the present. Whatever is there. The rest takes care of itself. I'm off for some Chinese takeout. Take care. Yeah I get you. And it's certainly true that I have sometimes used tools as a way of avoiding something...I gave an example in the Byron Katie thread. I know when the energy around an issue is dissipating when the capacity to even use the tool is no longer there. Nothing else then to do but surrender, allow, witness. Take care. My favorite Chinese restaurant posted a sign on the door they were now closing on Tuesdays. Hahaha. I hear ya. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 28, 2024 12:50:41 GMT -5
Yeah I get you. And it's certainly true that I have sometimes used tools as a way of avoiding something...I gave an example in the Byron Katie thread. I know when the energy around an issue is dissipating when the capacity to even use the tool is no longer there. Nothing else then to do but surrender, allow, witness. Take care. My favorite Chinese restaurant posted a sign on the door they were now closing on Tuesdays. Hahaha. I hear ya. Oh...no. My favorite thing is Egg Foo Yung, roast pork a little better than chicken. My favorite restaurant was seven minutes away. Many years ago they had a fire, they never reopened, The Golden Palace. My #2 and #3 don't make Egg Foo Yung. Well, #2, it was on the dinner menu, but I never ate dinner. Oh, I read that wrong, closed just on Tuesday. ....but,  anyway. |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 17:47:11 GMT -5
As always there needs to be a foundation to support whatever is taught in these regards. From what I have witnessed regarding what other's say and quote on forums about non duality still reflects confusion, opposites and inconsistencies where things don't add up. Over the years we have heard it all haven't we. We have had teachers that make complete u-turns, we have had differences of perspective had from one teacher's first book to their last. We have teachers that say they are not here and charge money to their non existent students and some that collect Rolls Royces like a trophy haul. There doesn't even seem to be some-one-thing that can even be here to use the right means in the wrong way and yet what is said is supposedly mean't to carry some element of truth to some. Peeps it seems kant even understand what constitutes an individual that can experience life. I was going to say life as we know it, butt depending on where you are coming from and self relating with or too there maybe no one present that can experience nor come from anyway pertaining to their perception that can be dreamy or not true based upon the supposed senses we use to navigate this so called world or plane of existence. I saw a snippet of a video a while ago where the non duality teacher was speaking about appearances arising in the dream and I thought here we go again lol
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"...  Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
The counterpoint here is the consensus fixation on success, wealth and power, which manifests in all sorts of ways, and is obviously directly related to existential suffering. A quiescent mind unattached to any position, even prior to SR, is an opportunity for clarity on the matter. I would agree that the general tendency is either that this clarity never happens, or, if it does, it often (if not even, usually) becomes distorted into an anti-material sort of backlash against the consensus, which can be just as bad as being entranced by the shiny baubles. |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 18:05:42 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
Yer I know that you think abundance is okay and whatnot, I was just emphasising the diversity in so called teachers and strains of non duality there are and what we have discussed at times in reflection of them. Teachers that are blissful in a lion cloth with a bowl of rice on their lap to multi millionaires that are driven to keep the gravy train going. Some teaching detachment, some about the dream world, some about non identity. Some teachings refer too there isn't anyone here to those that say of course there is. If one is living by example by what they believe to be true then all well and good, but if it doesn't fall in line with another's teachings then all we have are people or imaginary people depending on what float's one's boat coming from a relative perspective don't we. You and Andy are speaking about a teacher at the moment. Going back to the website and the dangers in some strands on non duality then that applies to all non lived teachings, or teachings that are not actually realised and are relative truths based upon what one has concluded. I mean wasn't it Spira that was quoted about not healing oneself. Now that's dangerous if one believes that there is no-one here to get ill in the first place and one is not the body for examples sake. Of course everything as always has to be taken in context for what we are is not the body when there is transcendence of it but while one has integrated their awareness of one within a certain experience then it is very much a part of what you fundamentally are. If one wants to bring a balance to the mind-body-soul aspect or not that's their prerogative but if one believes what someone else believes and flows suit then I guess it's a learning curve if nothing else. "you are not your body" really means : "most people are conditioned to feel limited by what they think is their body, that ends at their skin". It's actually just greater depth than "you are not your mind", or, even shallower, "you are not your thoughts". ZD and I have quietly shared a laugh more than once about the notion that "reality, is not what you think it is". "not-the-mind", "not-the-body" are contextual, provisional. Just ideas that might catalyze a process of shifting someone's perspective away from the consensus, which is inopposite to (and really, not even opposite, just off the mark of) .. all there is, is what you are.  |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 18:09:15 GMT -5
okay thank you for expanding/clarifying your view. There are always further questions that could be asked, but after sitting for a moment, in this case, I'm just going to let that little bubble of questioning subside, and move along. |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 18:28:53 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
I'm with you most of the way here. There's obviously nothing good or bad with how THIS can manifest (except in imagination), but I think that the deeper one sees into the nature of THIS, the more one feels compassion for others and the less self concern there is. The less self concern, the more boddhisattvahood. A Buddha only wants to help others find the peace, happiness, equanimity, and freedom that s/he has found. FWIW, we were referred to a terrific tour guide in Portugal, and he turned out to be incredible. He's a walking encyclopedia, speaks 5 or 6 languages and knows a smattering of many more. He was an exchange student in the USA, so he's fluent in English, Mandarin, Portuguese (his home), and Spanish, and is close to fluent in Mandarin and Japanese with a workable knowledge of French, Italian, German, and a bit of Russian. He gave us a fantastic tour of Lisbon that avoided all lines, showed us amazing sights, taught us the history of Portugal, and much more. He was trained as a graphics designer and majored in photography and film making, but he started being a tour guide three years ago and enjoyed it so much that it is now becoming his full-time job. He's one of the happiest and most compassionate individuals we're ever met. If one is with Artur, one is in good hands because he cares deeply about the welfare and enjoyment of his clients. While in Lisbon he showed us places that most tourists probably never see because they don't look impressive from the outside. Artur lives in Cascais, which was our next destination. He advised taking the train because it runs along the ocean, is cheap, and is a very scenic 40 minute ride. After we arrived there, he gave us a tour of that city. He loves to walk, and he claims that he never gets tired, and can fall asleep anywhere in seconds. Our tour ended at about 1500 hours, and after we took Carol back to our hotel, he asked if I wanted to hike with him. At a tapas restaurant where we ate a friend of his had told him that flowers were blooming on a path leading out of town, and he wanted to see them. I joined him and we hiked for at least an hour up a valley as he pointed out various fruit trees, animals, and a thousand other things. I had brought no water with me, and after an hour, I flaked out, and told him I was ready to return to town. If I hadn't been with him, I think he would have kept going. We climbed a hill, caught a bus, and rode through Sintra and all through small hillside communities on the way back. By the time I got back to our hotel it was 1800 and I had clocked 10 miles and more than 20,000 steps. He told me that he regularly walks between 20,000 and 25,000 steps almost every day. The next day Carol and I were walking through town and ran into Artur by accident. He suggested that we visit a free city museum that was totally cool and high tech, and then we went to a tapas bar for snacks and drinks. On our last night in Cascais (our fifth day) he told us that he and his wife wanted to take us to dinner at one of their fave restaurants. I told Carol that I wanted to give him a copy of Pouring Concrete, not for any ND stuff, but just because I thought he might enjoy some of the stories. Carol said, "No. Don't do it! He doesn't need to seek anything because he already has what everyone else is looking for!" Haha. That definitely gave me a laugh. Nevertheless, I couldn't help myself. I learned enough additional Portuguese to say, "This book is a book about non-duality, but ignore non-duality and see if you find the stories interesting." I met Artur and his wife in a small park near the hotel while Carol was still getting dressed. I gave him the book and my message. His wife looked at me strangely and said, "Nao-dualidade?" (Non-duality?) I said, "Yes, but forget about that. This is just a book about some of my adventures that I thought Artur might enjoy. Then she asked, "What is the difference between non-duality and reality (realidade)?" I said, there is no difference. Sitting here on this park bench talking to you IS reality and non-duality at the same time." Artur immediately got it, and said, "Yes, this is it." I almost laughed out loud. After they drove us to a great little restaurant where we had a delicious tomato-based flounder and shrimp stew with rice, and they drove us back to town, Carol found out that I had given him a copy of PC. When we got to our room she fussed at me, and said, "Artur is neither political nor religious; he has no interest in ND." I said, "I know that, but he likes good stories, and he told me that life is an adventure, so I thought he'd like to read about some of my adventures." We both agreed that Artur is perfect just the way he is. When we went to leave the hotel the next day, the desk clerk said, "Someone left something here for you," and handed me a bag. Artur had left us both gifts and a very sweet card about his enjoyment of sharing Portugal with us. He is truly an incredible human being, and one of the few people I've met who doesn't need to seek anything. On our walk together he told me that he is happy all the time. That's about as good as it gets. After we got to Porto, Artur sent me photos from southern Spain where he and his wife have gone for a short vacation. If anyone ever wants a great tour guide for Portugal, let me know and I'll send you his name and how to contact him. My point is that not everyone needs to be a seeker to be a happy human. .. as I'm reading this, there is a utility truck running a vac on a residential *out* line across the street .. at high decibels ..  |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 28, 2024 19:27:22 GMT -5
Ah for the record, if I say the first bit, it's just a convenient figure of speech. Yes, it's just a placeholder. ZD says it best, _________. Yes, THIS always starts as ____________, since one is already Here, until, having fallen, one forgets and (maybe, eventually) goes off in search of _____________. “Memory believes before (K)nowing remembers.” ― William Faulkner, As I Lay Dying |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 28, 2024 19:28:54 GMT -5
Not focused on what happened to this body/mind sixty years ago or a thousand years ago. My focus is the wound that mars the present. Not so much the wound itself, but glossing, suppressing, denial of it etc. The story isn't important. Not that it shouldn't be told. It can be retold a thousand times with no avail or relief. The important thing is what is done with it. I focus on the present, the moment, because it makes it impossible for me to ignore, to deny, to suppress. It helps me make room. Purification is not about the past or future. Absolutely perfectly true and correct. Quite profound even. (I corrected what might have been a Freudian slip .  |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 28, 2024 19:32:32 GMT -5
yeah, to be clear, by causes, I meant...for example, the beliefs that create the emotions. So pretty immediate causes. Or perhaps a bit less immediate, perhaps any traumas that you've experienced in your life. This is where Zen comes in handy. If I bash you on the head, it's only the belief that your body is real that pisses you off. Haha! But I see your point if you believe the rope is a snake, there'll be misplaced fear. I believe all beliefs should be opposed and defied including our belief in gravity. Some beliefs are fact based. This body/mind is pretty grounded. No rope/ snakes. We've all experienced trauma. Some say birth is traumatic. There's some good stuff in trans-personal psychology that tinkers with the similarities between physical birth and 'speerchal' rebirth. It makes sense and can open the mind up to some trans-rationality. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on May 28, 2024 19:39:18 GMT -5
yeah, to be clear, by causes, I meant...for example, the beliefs that create the emotions. So pretty immediate causes. Or perhaps a bit less immediate, perhaps any traumas that you've experienced in your life. This is where Zen comes in handy. If I bash you on the head, it's only the belief that your body is real that pisses you off. Haha! But I see your point if you believe the rope is a snake, there'll be misplaced fear. I believe all beliefs should be opposed and defied including our belief in gravity. Some beliefs are fact based. This body/mind is pretty grounded. No rope/ snakes. We've all experienced trauma. Some say birth is traumatic. Cats explain evolution through Zen action! [/quote] |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 20:32:08 GMT -5
I don't think there's any thing as a nondualist. That would be an oxymoron. To say "I'm a nondualist." What is more discomforting than blather about nonduality is making claims about "freedom" when your head is clearly up your ass. Not that mine isn't which is why I make no such claim. A wonderful example/reminder of how recursion is at the root of the false sense of "I".  |
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anyway. 
