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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 20:49:48 GMT -5
In my tradition there are 3 gates, attention, consciousness, will. Will doesn't mean will in the ordinary sense. Will means you encompass the opposite. The answer is never yes or no. The answer is arrived at by encompassing yes and no (IOW, making more room for all these). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At the risk of peril, Jung's description of the shadow enters here, it would seem. The shadow is what we deny in ourselves, (it's not necessarily bad). And then we project somewhere out there in the world, our shadow. What we deny in ourselves we see in others. The world is a hall of mirrors. So, basically, when you bash specifically, others, it's very telling. You are basically describing what-you-are. BK ''Everyone is a mirror image of yourself-your own thinking coming back to you.'' BK ''The clearer your mind gets, the more it projects a friendly universe, until one day it occurs to you that you haven’t had a problem for a very long time.'' Went to the TM sales pitch a few years back, and the guy used the metaphor of the mind as the ocean and TM as a method for bringing you rapidly to the bottom where there is no disturbance from the wind like on the surface. Funny, that the ocean really doesn't work that way!  .. the bottom of the ocean is a busy place, with all sorts of currents and bottom-feeders, swirling away. The anti-reefs "purification", and reefs' alignment are precisely one in the same. And both have the potential to go far further than skin deep, which is where you find the limits of a thought-based approach like Katie's. To go this "further" some people talk about, you have to involve the "body", as well. Some of the furtherists mention that from time-to-time, others, not so much. What the reviled "nondualists" and "neo-advitists" are pointing to is transcendent of all this. An elusive color, a fleeting scent, a haunting melody, half heard, from a source that is nowhere to be seen, seemingly hiding, somewhere in a warm solstice twilight, but always and ever, actually, closer than the nose on your face.  |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 20:57:00 GMT -5
BK ''Everyone is a mirror image of yourself-your own thinking coming back to you.'' BK ''The clearer your mind gets, the more it projects a friendly universe, until one day it occurs to you that you haven’t had a problem for a very long time.'' I can only see everything from my own perspective, sorry. This would be the distinction between what Gurdjieff called voluntary suffering and intentional suffering. BK is correct, but doesn't go far enough, she has reached the point of the end of voluntary suffering. But there is still stuff buried even deeper that has to be dealt with (eventually, meaning now or another life). To make this stuff arise, in yourself, intentional suffering is necessary. Because BK is correct doesn't mean that's the end of the journey. At a certain point, nothing in life that happens can make you suffer, no circumstance. That's when you begin intentional suffering. But you have to understand the why of it. (And an odd aside. The Gurdjieff teaching has several names, the 4th Way, and simply, The Work. Is it a coincidence BK called her method, Work? I don't know. Have you ever seen her discuss how she came up with that name?) A very unique interesting story, when Hui Neng became the 6th Patriarch. His teacher gave him the bowl and the robe, and told him he had better leave, as the other students wouldn't understand. So he left. But a particularly (former)-bad-guy-student was indeed angry, and he and another went after Hui Neng. They found him, and threatened him, intended to slice and dice. Hui Neng simply laid the bowl and robe down, and said, take them if you need them. That completely disarmed the (former) bad guy student, and he immediately accepted Hui Neng as his teacher. nah, pain is an inevitable part of life, but intentionally inflicting it is always optional, and refraining from doing that doesn't necessarily have to involve avoidance, which is just (intentional infliction) multiplied by -1. |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 21:06:24 GMT -5
Yeah I get you. And it's certainly true that I have sometimes used tools as a way of avoiding something...I gave an example in the Byron Katie thread. I know when the energy around an issue is dissipating when the capacity to even use the tool is no longer there. Nothing else then to do but surrender, allow, witness. Take care. My favorite Chinese restaurant posted a sign on the door they were now closing on Tuesdays. Hahaha. I hear ya. Used to love to hit the slopes on Tuesdays. The long-weekender's are gone, no mid-week ticket price sales to tempt people into taking a snow day from work, the start of the next weekend the furthest away. I used to joke with anyone at the lodge who it looked like they had a sense of humor "yeah, wow, only ONE Tuesday every week? Who fucked that one up?". |
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Post by laughter on May 28, 2024 21:10:23 GMT -5
I can only see everything from my own perspective, sorry. This would be the distinction between what Gurdjieff called voluntary suffering and intentional suffering. BK is correct, but doesn't go far enough, she has reached the point of the end of voluntary suffering. But there is still stuff buried even deeper that has to be dealt with (eventually, meaning now or another life). To make this stuff arise, in yourself, intentional suffering is necessary. Because BK is correct doesn't mean that's the end of the journey. At a certain point, nothing in life that happens can make you suffer, no circumstance. That's when you begin intentional suffering. But you have to understand the why of it. (And an odd aside. The Gurdjieff teaching has several names, the 4th Way, and simply, The Work. Is it a coincidence BK called her method, Work? I don't know. Have you ever seen her discuss how she came up with that name?) A very unique interesting story, when Hui Neng became the 6th Patriarch. His teacher gave him the bowl and the robe, and told him he had better leave, as the other students wouldn't understand. So he left. But a particularly (former)-bad-guy-student was indeed angry, and he and another went after Hui Neng. They found him, and threatened him. Hui Neng simply laid the bowl and robe down, and said, take them if you need them. That completely disarmed the (former) bad guy student, and he immediately accepted Hui Neng as his teacher. Intentional suffering is a very interesting idea. I'm in the car, I'll get back to you. One way to look at it is with the understanding that pain and pleasure are ultimately just a two sided coin. There's a relative insight about "chasing the high" that has all sorts of levels of depth to it. There is also an ultimate realization of which this sort of insight is only but a shadow. A significant, long and deep shadow, but a shadow, nontheless. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2024 6:32:36 GMT -5
BK ''Everyone is a mirror image of yourself-your own thinking coming back to you.'' BK ''The clearer your mind gets, the more it projects a friendly universe, until one day it occurs to you that you haven’t had a problem for a very long time.'' Went to the TM sales pitch a few years back, and the guy used the metaphor of the mind as the ocean and TM as a method for bringing you rapidly to the bottom where there is no disturbance from the wind like on the surface. Funny, that the ocean really doesn't work that way! .. the bottom of the ocean is a busy place, with all sorts of currents and bottom-feeders, swirling away. The anti-reefs "purification", and reefs' alignment are precisely one in the same. And both have the potential to go far further than skin deep, which is where you find the limits of a thought-based approach like Katie's. To go this "further" some people talk about, you have to involve the "body", as well. Some of the furtherists mention that from time-to-time, others, not so much. What the reviled "nondualists" and "neo-advitists" are pointing to is transcendent of all this. An elusive color, a fleeting scent, a haunting melody, half heard, from a source that is nowhere to be seen, seemingly hiding, somewhere in a warm solstice twilight, but always and ever, actually, closer than the nose on your face. . lolly is actually the one who mentions it the most. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2024 16:10:13 GMT -5
BK ''Everyone is a mirror image of yourself-your own thinking coming back to you.'' BK ''The clearer your mind gets, the more it projects a friendly universe, until one day it occurs to you that you haven’t had a problem for a very long time.'' I can only see everything from my own perspective, sorry. This would be the distinction between what Gurdjieff called voluntary suffering and intentional suffering. BK is correct, but doesn't go far enough, she has reached the point of the end of voluntary suffering. But there is still stuff buried even deeper that has to be dealt with (eventually, meaning now or another life). To make this stuff arise, in yourself, intentional suffering is necessary. Because BK is correct doesn't mean that's the end of the journey. At a certain point, nothing in life that happens can make you suffer, no circumstance. That's when you begin intentional suffering. But you have to understand the why of it. (And an odd aside. The Gurdjieff teaching has several names, the 4th Way, and simply, The Work. Is it a coincidence BK called her method, Work? I don't know. Have you ever seen her discuss how she came up with that name?) A very unique interesting story, when Hui Neng became the 6th Patriarch. His teacher gave him the bowl and the robe, and told him he had better leave, as the other students wouldn't understand. So he left. But a particularly (former)-bad-guy-student was indeed angry, and he and another went after Hui Neng. They found him, and threatened him, intended to slice and dice. Hui Neng simply laid the bowl and robe down, and said, take them if you need them. That completely disarmed the (former) bad guy student, and he immediately accepted Hui Neng as his teacher. I had a little think about this, and though I'm not sure what you/Gurdy mean by 'intentional suffering', I don't think such a thing is possible. I'd say that by its nature, suffering contains hopelessness, helplessness and a sense of being trapped/stuck. And this simply cannot be contrived. The best that can be done, in a safe/therapeutic setting, is to create either past/future scenarios that contain suffering, and to work on them. Which is, in fact, incredibly useful. In fact, Faster EFT invites us to amplify the negative feelings. But again, the participant engages with them with a sense of 'choice', so while the healing process can be very intense, it's not the same as a situation in which one is authentically suffering. I'd say it's impossible to authentically choose suffering. In the case of Katie, after her initial awakening, she says she basically sat by the window, or walked in the desert for a year. And during that period, she welcomed and questioned every belief that arose. She says that her last major sticking point related to beliefs around her mother, she had to question them over and over again, picking away at the subtleties of the beliefs, before it finally 'popped'. I'm not sure why she chose to call it 'the work', maybe she said, but I don't remember. I know she describes herself as 'the work in action', which is why she never rules out the potential of a stressful belief that she hasn't seen. With that said, as I commented to Reefs, I sense that she has a layer of protection there still. I could be wrong. I sense the same about Tolle, and other teachers too, like Spira. I was interested recently to learn that Adyashanti is retiring from teaching due to anxiety. My sense of it is that when a spiritual teaching role is engaged with, it forms a layer of protection. I'm not saying this is 'ego' per se, and I'm not saying that this protection should be addressed by them. These teachers play important roles in the world, and perhaps they sacrifice their own growth....out of love...so that they can serve the world. Everyone has their own path. Their own growth rate. And I love that we have spiritual teachers to learn from. Very rarely do I find any of them 'wrong' in their teaching, and I find myself drawn to different teachers at different times. I know for you that Gurdy is your man. Maybe that's your life path. But maybe not. We can't predict life, we can't predict our growth, and I believe that we ALL be surprised by the unfolding. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2024 16:29:55 GMT -5
Intentional suffering is a very interesting idea. I'm in the car, I'll get back to you. There is also an ultimate realization of which this sort of insight is only but a shadow. A significant, long and deep shadow, but a shadow, nontheless. Yep, I see your point there for sure, if you read my message above to SDP, you'll see my thoughts on suffering. One further point I didn't raise which may be a paradox (I know you love a 'dox ). I'd say someone like Ramana...as deeply surrendered/accepting as he was....didn't suffer because he WASN'T open to suffering. He had wisely discerned that suffering did not serve a valid/valuable purpose in his life context. So he didn't 'go there'. I believe we only experience what, on some level (maybe subconscious), we believe has valid/valuable purpose. It may even be as simple as curiosity and wanting to broaden our experience. For example, I was raised in a financially secure life context (at least, more than most people). Then at some point in my life, I experienced strong financial insecurity and fragility. I understood, even at the time I was experiencing it, that I was necessarily broadening my experience. Can't say I liked it, but it was necessary for my growth. I think sometimes we have to satisfy curiosity. We have to get genuinely bored of something. And that applies to suffering. As a side note, this is also why, as much as I value the LOA message, I don't see LOA as a fundamental 'definer' of material human experience. After all, how many LOA'ers have won big on the lottery? If LOA was a fundamental material 'definer', anyone that follows Abe-Hicks for long enough, would be winning the lottery. I'd say we have deep 'soul' (not a great word, but there we go) explorations that we have to fulfil. For some folks, it might be health issues. For others, it might be poverty. For others it might be racial issues. Who knows. And with all the spiritual will in the world, not everyone will transcend their material issues, and neither are they 'meant' to. Maybe their path is to find acceptance and peace amidst their issue. 8 billion individuals, that's a lot of unique paths. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2024 17:56:28 GMT -5
I can only see everything from my own perspective, sorry. This would be the distinction between what Gurdjieff called voluntary suffering and intentional suffering. BK is correct, but doesn't go far enough, she has reached the point of the end of voluntary suffering. But there is still stuff buried even deeper that has to be dealt with (eventually, meaning now or another life). To make this stuff arise, in yourself, intentional suffering is necessary. Because BK is correct doesn't mean that's the end of the journey. At a certain point, nothing in life that happens can make you suffer, no circumstance. That's when you begin intentional suffering. But you have to understand the why of it. (And an odd aside. The Gurdjieff teaching has several names, the 4th Way, and simply, The Work. Is it a coincidence BK called her method, Work? I don't know. Have you ever seen her discuss how she came up with that name?) A very unique interesting story, when Hui Neng became the 6th Patriarch. His teacher gave him the bowl and the robe, and told him he had better leave, as the other students wouldn't understand. So he left. But a particularly (former)-bad-guy-student was indeed angry, and he and another went after Hui Neng. They found him, and threatened him, intended to slice and dice. Hui Neng simply laid the bowl and robe down, and said, take them if you need them. That completely disarmed the (former) bad guy student, and he immediately accepted Hui Neng as his teacher. I'd say that by its nature, suffering contains hopelessness, helplessness and a sense of being trapped/stuck. And this simply cannot be contrived. The best that can be done, in a safe/therapeutic setting, is to create either past/future scenarios that contain suffering, and to work on them. Which is, in fact, incredibly useful. In fact, Faster EFT invites us to amplify the negative feelings. But again, the participant engages with them with a sense of 'choice', so while the healing process can be very intense, it's not the same as a situation in which one is authentically suffering. I'd say it's impossible to authentically choose suffering. In the case of Katie, after her initial awakening, she says she basically sat by the window, or walked in the desert for a year. And during that period, she welcomed and questioned every belief that arose. She says that her last major sticking point related to beliefs around her mother, she had to question them over and over again, picking away at the subtleties of the beliefs, before it finally 'popped'. I'm not sure why she chose to call it 'the work', maybe she said, but I don't remember. I know she describes herself as 'the work in action', which is why she never rules out the potential of a stressful belief that she hasn't seen. With that said, as I commented to Reefs, I sense that she has a layer of protection there still. I could be wrong. I sense the same about Tolle, and other teachers too, like Spira. I was interested recently to learn that Adyashanti is retiring from teaching due to anxiety. My sense of it is that when a spiritual teaching role is engaged with, it forms a layer of protection. I'm not saying this is 'ego' per se, and I'm not saying that this protection should be addressed by them. These teachers play important roles in the world, and perhaps they sacrifice their own growth....out of love...so that they can serve the world. Everyone has their own path. Their own growth rate. And I love that we have spiritual teachers to learn from. Very rarely do I find any of them 'wrong' in their teaching, and I find myself drawn to different teachers at different times. I know for you that Gurdy is your man. Maybe that's your life path. But maybe not. We can't predict life, we can't predict our growth, and I believe that we ALL be surprised by the unfolding. First you could ask, what causes suffering? But I will give an example of intentional suffering. Intentional implies choice, deliberate choice. What if you, andrew, had to choose to leave your wife? This is a what if? I'm not saying you ever would. But just remember, I've said it numerous times, the Gurdjieff [inner] Work is all about saving energy (and transforming energy). [We, most people, waste and lose an enormous amount of energy through (ordinary) suffering]. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2024 18:08:01 GMT -5
I had a little think about this, and though I'm not sure what you/Gurdy mean by 'intentional suffering', I don't think such a thing is possible. I'd say that by its nature, suffering contains hopelessness, helplessness and a sense of being trapped/stuck. And this simply cannot be contrived. The best that can be done, in a safe/therapeutic setting, is to create either past/future scenarios that contain suffering, and to work on them. Which is, in fact, incredibly useful. In fact, Faster EFT invites us to amplify the negative feelings. But again, the participant engages with them with a sense of 'choice', so while the healing process can be very intense, it's not the same as a situation in which one is authentically suffering. I'd say it's impossible to authentically choose suffering. In the case of Katie, after her initial awakening, she says she basically sat by the window, or walked in the desert for a year. And during that period, she welcomed and questioned every belief that arose. She says that her last major sticking point related to beliefs around her mother, she had to question them over and over again, picking away at the subtleties of the beliefs, before it finally 'popped'. I'm not sure why she chose to call it 'the work', maybe she said, but I don't remember. I know she describes herself as 'the work in action', which is why she never rules out the potential of a stressful belief that she hasn't seen. With that said, as I commented to Reefs, I sense that she has a layer of protection there still. I could be wrong. I sense the same about Tolle, and other teachers too, like Spira. I was interested recently to learn that Adyashanti is retiring from teaching due to anxiety. My sense of it is that when a spiritual teaching role is engaged with, it forms a layer of protection. I'm not saying this is 'ego' per se, and I'm not saying that this protection should be addressed by them. These teachers play important roles in the world, and perhaps they sacrifice their own growth....out of love...so that they can serve the world. Everyone has their own path. Their own growth rate. And I love that we have spiritual teachers to learn from. Very rarely do I find any of them 'wrong' in their teaching, and I find myself drawn to different teachers at different times. I know for you that Gurdy is your man. Maybe that's your life path. But maybe not. We can't predict life, we can't predict our growth, and I believe that we ALL be surprised by the unfolding. First you could ask, what causes suffering? But I will give an example of intentional suffering. Intentional implies choice, deliberate choice. What if you, andrew, had to choose to leave your wife? This is a what if? I'm not saying you ever would. But just remember, I've said it numerous times, the Gurdjieff [inner] Work is all about saving energy (and transforming energy). [We, most people, waste and lose an enormous amount of energy through (ordinary) suffering]. Well, whether I suffered or not would depend on whether I felt helpless, hopeless or trapped. Sometimes people do find themselves between a 'rock and a hard place', and either choice accompanies a sense of helplessness, hopelessness and trappedness. For example, I have a friend in Australia who had just begun her own 'care' business before covid hit. She was someone that did not want the vaccine, but in the end, she was not allowed to work if she didn't have it. She 'chose' the vaccine, and she told me that she wept while she was having it. Her 'choice' still engendered suffering for her, even though she decided it was the better choice. But I don't think that means that she intentionally chose suffering. It just meant that her options were bad. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2024 18:49:51 GMT -5
First you could ask, what causes suffering? But I will give an example of intentional suffering. Intentional implies choice, deliberate choice. What if you, andrew, had to choose to leave your wife? This is a what if? I'm not saying you ever would. But just remember, I've said it numerous times, the Gurdjieff [inner] Work is all about saving energy (and transforming energy). [We, most people, waste and lose an enormous amount of energy through (ordinary) suffering]. Well, whether I suffered or not would depend on whether I felt helpless, hopeless or trapped. Sometimes people do find themselves between a 'rock and a hard place', and either choice accompanies a sense of helplessness, hopelessness and trappedness. For example, I have a friend in Australia who had just begun her own 'care' business before covid hit. She was someone that did not want the vaccine, but in the end, she was not allowed to work if she didn't have it. She 'chose' the vaccine, and she told me that she wept while she was having it. Her 'choice' still engendered suffering for her, even though she decided it was the better choice. But I don't think that means that she intentionally chose suffering. It just meant that her options were bad. Doesn't matter, you would never be in a position that you would choose to cause suffering for yourself. But I thought I had arrived at a good example. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2024 18:59:44 GMT -5
Well, whether I suffered or not would depend on whether I felt helpless, hopeless or trapped. Sometimes people do find themselves between a 'rock and a hard place', and either choice accompanies a sense of helplessness, hopelessness and trappedness. For example, I have a friend in Australia who had just begun her own 'care' business before covid hit. She was someone that did not want the vaccine, but in the end, she was not allowed to work if she didn't have it. She 'chose' the vaccine, and she told me that she wept while she was having it. Her 'choice' still engendered suffering for her, even though she decided it was the better choice. But I don't think that means that she intentionally chose suffering. It just meant that her options were bad. Doesn't matter, you would never be in a position that you would choose to cause suffering for yourself. But I thought I had arrived at a good example. Well, I didn't mind you asking that question, hypotheticals can be good. I do believe that sometimes suffering can happen for a noble cause. There have been occasions in which I've put myself in situations that I know will trigger 'suffering', because I know that putting myself in that situation is the right thing to do. Is that part of what you mean by intentional suffering? (To be clear, I'd rather not manifest those kinds of situations lol). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 29, 2024 19:57:27 GMT -5
Doesn't matter, you would never be in a position that you would choose to cause suffering for yourself. But I thought I had arrived at a good example. Well, I didn't mind you asking that question, hypotheticals can be good. I do believe that sometimes suffering can happen for a noble cause. There have been occasions in which I've put myself in situations that I know will trigger 'suffering', because I know that putting myself in that situation is the right thing to do. Is that part of what you mean by intentional suffering? (To be clear, I'd rather not manifest those kinds of situations lol). The central core of Beelzebub's Tales is about practice. Gurdjieff made up numerous words to not-communicate so easily his ideas. Practice, he called Being-Partkdolg-duty. And then he defined that as conscious labors and intentional suffering. He also defined, in BT's, self-calming as our inner God. IOW, the ordinary person will engage in many different activities to avoid suffering, the purpose of self-calming is to escape suffering. As already mentioned, one begins with voluntary suffering. That is, if you practice the Work you don't try these different means to escape suffering, you let it be and observe it. Suffering comes to you, you try not to escape the suffering. Suffering could be equated to Buddha's first noble truth, everyone on earth is subject to suffering, dukkha. So, again, one practices voluntary suffering to begin with (along with conscious labors, conscious efforts). If you practice, again, as stated, eventually nothing in ordinary life can make one suffer. Then, if you wish to continue the journey, you create conditions and circumstances to make you suffer. This is intentional suffering, and again, it's useless unless you also observe the suffering. Again, as mentioned, the Gurdjieff teaching is centered around saving energy and transforming energy (and saving the transformed energy). This is what Being-Partkdolg-duty is about. The Gurdjieff teaching means absolutely nothing without the practices. (To begin with, self-remembering, self-observation, voluntary suffering, division of attention, nonidentification and conscious breathing, these are conscious efforts). So, in voluntary suffering, you save the energy you would have lost by suffering. So, also, the purpose of intentional suffering is to create energy within the organism. In 1934-35 Gurdjieff had made a plan of things to accomplish, and a set date to accomplish them. He realized there was not enough time to do everything, and he was in bad health also. Now, he didn't tell anyone what he was doing, we know from later writings, but he realized he had to practice intentional suffering to create the energy to heal himself and accomplish everything within his set time period. And he accomplished everything. He tells us one thing he did to intentionally suffer, he removed from his presence anyone who gave him gratification-pleasure-comfort, again, without telling anyone why. |
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Post by andrew on May 29, 2024 20:19:45 GMT -5
Well, I didn't mind you asking that question, hypotheticals can be good. I do believe that sometimes suffering can happen for a noble cause. There have been occasions in which I've put myself in situations that I know will trigger 'suffering', because I know that putting myself in that situation is the right thing to do. Is that part of what you mean by intentional suffering? (To be clear, I'd rather not manifest those kinds of situations lol). The central core of Beelzebub's Tales is about practice. Gurdjieff made up numerous words to not-communicate so easily his ideas. Practice, he called Being-Partkdolg-duty. And then he defined that as conscious labors and intentional suffering. He also defined, in BT's, self-calming as our inner God. IOW, the ordinary person will engage in many different activities to avoid suffering, the purpose of self-calming is to escape suffering. As already mentioned, one begins with voluntary suffering. That is, if you practice the Work you don't try these different means to escape suffering, you let it be and observe it. Suffering comes to you, you try not to escape the suffering. Suffering could be equated to Buddha's first noble truth, everyone on earth is subject to suffering, dukkha. So, again, one practices voluntary suffering to begin with (along with conscious labors, conscious efforts). If you practice, again, as stated, eventually nothing in ordinary life can make one suffer. Then, if you wish to continue the journey, you create conditions and circumstances to make you suffer. This is intentional suffering, and again, it's useless unless you also observe the suffering. Again, as mentioned, the Gurdjieff teaching is centered around saving energy and transforming energy (and saving the transformed energy). This is what Being-Partkdolg-duty is about. The Gurdjieff teaching means absolutely nothing without the practices. (To begin with, self-remembering, self-observation, voluntary suffering, division of attention, nonidentification and conscious breathing, these are conscious efforts). So, in voluntary suffering, you save the energy you would have lost by suffering. So, also, the purpose of intentional suffering is to create energy within the organism. In 1934-35 Gurdjieff had made a plan of things to accomplish, and a set date to accomplish them. He realized there was not enough time to do everything, and he was in bad health also. Now, he didn't tell anyone what he was doing, we know from later writings, but he realized he had to practice intentional suffering to create the energy to heal himself and accomplish everything within his set time period. And he accomplished everything. He tells us one thing he did to intentionally suffer, he removed from his presence anyone who gave him gratification-pleasure-comfort, again, without telling anyone why. I can relate to the gist of this, in my words I'd say that a high vibration energy transmutes a low vibration energy. Also reminds me of 'The Sedona Method', which is all about allowing/welcoming/releasing whatever is present in that moment. Cheers. |
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Post by zazeniac on May 30, 2024 8:50:26 GMT -5
I don't think there's any thing as a nondualist. That would be an oxymoron. To say "I'm a nondualist." What is more discomforting than blather about nonduality is making claims about "freedom" when your head is clearly up your ass. Not that mine isn't which is why I make no such claim. A wonderful example/reminder of how recursion is at the root of the false sense of "I".  I had a great comeback, but I want to keep it friendly. |
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Post by laughter on May 30, 2024 9:11:49 GMT -5
One way to look at it is with the understanding that pain and pleasure are ultimately just a two sided coin. There's a relative insight about "chasing the high" that has all sorts of levels of depth to it. There is also an ultimate realization of which this sort of insight is only but a shadow. A significant, long and deep shadow, but a shadow, nontheless. Yep, I see your point there for sure, if you read my message above to SDP, you'll see my thoughts on suffering. One further point I didn't raise which may be a paradox (I know you love a 'dox ). I'd say someone like Ramana...as deeply surrendered/accepting as he was....didn't suffer because he WASN'T open to suffering. He had wisely discerned that suffering did not serve a valid/valuable purpose in his life context. So he didn't 'go there'. I believe we only experience what, on some level (maybe subconscious), we believe has valid/valuable purpose. It may even be as simple as curiosity and wanting to broaden our experience. For example, I was raised in a financially secure life context (at least, more than most people). Then at some point in my life, I experienced strong financial insecurity and fragility. I understood, even at the time I was experiencing it, that I was necessarily broadening my experience. Can't say I liked it, but it was necessary for my growth. I think sometimes we have to satisfy curiosity. We have to get genuinely bored of something. And that applies to suffering. As a side note, this is also why, as much as I value the LOA message, I don't see LOA as a fundamental 'definer' of material human experience. After all, how many LOA'ers have won big on the lottery? If LOA was a fundamental material 'definer', anyone that follows Abe-Hicks for long enough, would be winning the lottery. I'd say we have deep 'soul' (not a great word, but there we go) explorations that we have to fulfil. For some folks, it might be health issues. For others, it might be poverty. For others it might be racial issues. Who knows. And with all the spiritual will in the world, not everyone will transcend their material issues, and neither are they 'meant' to. Maybe their path is to find acceptance and peace amidst their issue. 8 billion individuals, that's a lot of unique paths. The lottery fails are easy to explain. I'll use a mix of mine and reefs' lingo. Those are people-peeps engaging in deliberate creation from a personal context. They've got hold of an interesting tool with a handle wrapped in nondual-context duct tape, but they're really not on any different footing from yer average Joe just doin' his best to get by out in the world. I don't take reefs to mean that us creating our reality means that I control the weather. We usually walk a woods trail, try to do it daily to keep active/moving. But lately, it's been like 70 degrees, slightly breezy, mostly sunny, Idyllic. On top of that the lawnmower crews fell behind on cutting this oversized soccer field that's fallen into disuse. So yesterday I stayed out of the woods to experience the tall grass and wildflowers flowing in the spring wind. Sublime. Did I attract that reality? Did my vibration lead to that experience? How about when it's raining and 22 degrees cooler when all the grass is dead? ZD gives a clue with the idea that a Buddha wants only to help others find peace, happiness and freedom. Maybe Jesus did those miracles because that was what was needed to shake the world free of an Empire that had crushed all of urban humanity within it's reach. As far as the lottery goes, I like to joke with this tune. Deliberate creation as done by a people-peep is the flip side of the coin to Buddha. Tolle and Katie offer a perspective that allows for both subjectivity and objectivity, preferably in the context of a quiescent mind. Reality is neither subjective nor objective, but our minds demand practicality, and so explanations of events will weave together the two. The Brown Bears and (genuinely) humble devotee's of the Abrahamic religions are not wrong when they say things like "God has a plan" and "nothing is wrong", "everything happens for a reason", etc.. There is a profound beauty to opening up to and accepting what the source of those notions are. Everything really is, perfect. But there's no justifying that. No explaining it other than the pointing like ZD's about holy Buddhahood, or the Christians who truly understand the limitlessness of God's love or the guru's and their poetry about the absence of separation, regardless of whether of how they died. |
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.. the bottom of the ocean is a busy place, with all sorts of currents and bottom-feeders, swirling away.
