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Post by zendancer on May 27, 2024 8:31:12 GMT -5
As always there needs to be a foundation to support whatever is taught in these regards. From what I have witnessed regarding what other's say and quote on forums about non duality still reflects confusion, opposites and inconsistencies where things don't add up. Over the years we have heard it all haven't we. We have had teachers that make complete u-turns, we have had differences of perspective had from one teacher's first book to their last. We have teachers that say they are not here and charge money to their non existent students and some that collect Rolls Royces like a trophy haul. There doesn't even seem to be some-one-thing that can even be here to use the right means in the wrong way and yet what is said is supposedly mean't to carry some element of truth to some. Peeps it seems kant even understand what constitutes an individual that can experience life. I was going to say life as we know it, butt depending on where you are coming from and self relating with or too there maybe no one present that can experience nor come from anyway pertaining to their perception that can be dreamy or not true based upon the supposed senses we use to navigate this so called world or plane of existence. I saw a snippet of a video a while ago where the non duality teacher was speaking about appearances arising in the dream and I thought here we go again lol
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"...  Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
I'm with you most of the way here. There's obviously nothing good or bad with how THIS can manifest (except in imagination), but I think that the deeper one sees into the nature of THIS, the more one feels compassion for others and the less self concern there is. The less self concern, the more boddhisattvahood. A Buddha only wants to help others find the peace, happiness, equanimity, and freedom that s/he has found. FWIW, we were referred to a terrific tour guide in Portugal, and he turned out to be incredible. He's a walking encyclopedia, speaks 5 or 6 languages and knows a smattering of many more. He was an exchange student in the USA, so he's fluent in English, Mandarin, Portuguese (his home), and Spanish, and is close to fluent in Mandarin and Japanese with a workable knowledge of French, Italian, German, and a bit of Russian. He gave us a fantastic tour of Lisbon that avoided all lines, showed us amazing sights, taught us the history of Portugal, and much more. He was trained as a graphics designer and majored in photography and film making, but he started being a tour guide three years ago and enjoyed it so much that it is now becoming his full-time job. He's one of the happiest and most compassionate individuals we're ever met. If one is with Artur, one is in good hands because he cares deeply about the welfare and enjoyment of his clients. While in Lisbon he showed us places that most tourists probably never see because they don't look impressive from the outside. Artur lives in Cascais, which was our next destination. He advised taking the train because it runs along the ocean, is cheap, and is a very scenic 40 minute ride. After we arrived there, he gave us a tour of that city. He loves to walk, and he claims that he never gets tired, and can fall asleep anywhere in seconds. Our tour ended at about 1500 hours, and after we took Carol back to our hotel, he asked if I wanted to hike with him. At a tapas restaurant where we ate a friend of his had told him that flowers were blooming on a path leading out of town, and he wanted to see them. I joined him and we hiked for at least an hour up a valley as he pointed out various fruit trees, animals, and a thousand other things. I had brought no water with me, and after an hour, I flaked out, and told him I was ready to return to town. If I hadn't been with him, I think he would have kept going. We climbed a hill, caught a bus, and rode through Sintra and all through small hillside communities on the way back. By the time I got back to our hotel it was 1800 and I had clocked 10 miles and more than 20,000 steps. He told me that he regularly walks between 20,000 and 25,000 steps almost every day. The next day Carol and I were walking through town and ran into Artur by accident. He suggested that we visit a free city museum that was totally cool and high tech, and then we went to a tapas bar for snacks and drinks. On our last night in Cascais (our fifth day) he told us that he and his wife wanted to take us to dinner at one of their fave restaurants. I told Carol that I wanted to give him a copy of Pouring Concrete, not for any ND stuff, but just because I thought he might enjoy some of the stories. Carol said, "No. Don't do it! He doesn't need to seek anything because he already has what everyone else is looking for!" Haha. That definitely gave me a laugh. Nevertheless, I couldn't help myself. I learned enough additional Portuguese to say, "This book is a book about non-duality, but ignore non-duality and see if you find the stories interesting." I met Artur and his wife in a small park near the hotel while Carol was still getting dressed. I gave him the book and my message. His wife looked at me strangely and said, "Nao-dualidade?" (Non-duality?) I said, "Yes, but forget about that. This is just a book about some of my adventures that I thought Artur might enjoy. Then she asked, "What is the difference between non-duality and reality (realidade)?" I said, there is no difference. Sitting here on this park bench talking to you IS reality and non-duality at the same time." Artur immediately got it, and said, "Yes, this is it." I almost laughed out loud. After they drove us to a great little restaurant where we had a delicious tomato-based flounder and shrimp stew with rice, and they drove us back to town, Carol found out that I had given him a copy of PC. When we got to our room she fussed at me, and said, "Artur is neither political nor religious; he has no interest in ND." I said, "I know that, but he likes good stories, and he told me that life is an adventure, so I thought he'd like to read about some of my adventures." We both agreed that Artur is perfect just the way he is. When we went to leave the hotel the next day, the desk clerk said, "Someone left something here for you," and handed me a bag. Artur had left us both gifts and a very sweet card about his enjoyment of sharing Portugal with us. He is truly an incredible human being, and one of the few people I've met who doesn't need to seek anything. On our walk together he told me that he is happy all the time. That's about as good as it gets. After we got to Porto, Artur sent me photos from southern Spain where he and his wife have gone for a short vacation. If anyone ever wants a great tour guide for Portugal, let me know and I'll send you his name and how to contact him. My point is that not everyone needs to be a seeker to be a happy human. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2024 9:57:13 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
I'm with you most of the way here. There's obviously nothing good or bad with how THIS can manifest (except in imagination), but I think that the deeper one sees into the nature of THIS, the more one feels compassion for others and the less self concern there is. The less self concern, the more boddhisattvahood. A Buddha only wants to help others find the peace, happiness, equanimity, and freedom that s/he has found. FWIW, we were referred to a terrific tour guide in Portugal, and he turned out to be incredible. He's a walking encyclopedia, speaks 5 or 6 languages and knows a smattering of many more. He was an exchange student in the USA, so he's fluent in English, Mandarin, Portuguese (his home), and Spanish, and is close to fluent in Mandarin and Japanese with a workable knowledge of French, Italian, German, and a bit of Russian. He gave us a fantastic tour of Lisbon that avoided all lines, showed us amazing sights, taught us the history of Portugal, and much more. He was trained as a graphics designer and majored in photography and film making, but he start being a tour guide three years ago and enjoyed it so much that it is now becoming his full-time job. He's one of the happiest and most compassionate individuals we're ever met. If one is with Artur, one is in good hands because he cares deeply about the welfare and enjoyment of his clients. While in Lisbon he showed us places that most tourists probably never see because they don't look impressive from the outside. Artur lives in Cascais, which was our next destination. He advised taking the train because it funs along the ocean, is cheap, and is a very scenic 40 minute ride. He lives in Cascais, and after we arrived there, he gave us a tour of that city. He loves to walk, and he claims that he never gets tired, and can fall asleep anywhere in seconds. Our tour ended at about 1500 hours, and after we took Carol back to our hotel, he asked if I wanted to hike with him. At a tapas restaurant where we ate a friend of his had told him that flowers were blooming on a path leading out of town, and he wanted to see them. I joined him and we hiked for at least an hour up a valley as he pointed out various fruit trees, animals, and a thousand other things. I had brought no water with me, and after an hour, I flaked out, and told him I was ready to return to town. If I hadn't been with him, I think he would have kept going. We climbed a hill, caught a bus, and rode through Sintra and all through small hillside communities on the way back. By the time I got back to our hotel it was 1600 and I had clocked 10 miles and more than 20,000 steps. He told me that he regularly walks between 20,000 and 25,000 steps almost every day. The next day Carol and I were walking through town and ran into Artur by accident. He suggested that we visit a free city museum that was totally cool, and then we went to a tapas bar for snacks and drinks. On our last night in Cascais (our fifth day) he told us that he and his wife wanted to take us to dinner at one of their fave restaurants. I told Carol that I wanted to give him a copy of Pouring Concrete, not for any ND stuff, but just because I thought he might enjoy some of the stories. Carol said, "No. Don't do it! He doesn't need to seek anything because he already has what everyone else is looking for!" Haha. That definitely gave me a laugh. Nevertheless, I couldn't help myself. I learned enough additional Portuguese to say, "This book is a book about non-duality, but ignore non-duality and see if you find the stories interesting." I met Artur and his wife in a small park near the hotel while Carol was still getting dressed. I gave him the book and my message. His wife looked at me strangely and said, "Nao-dualidade?" (Non-duality?) I said, "Yes, but forget about that. This is just a book about some of my adventures that I thought Artur might enjoy. Then she asked, "What is the difference between non-duality and reality (realidade)?" I said, there is no difference. Sitting here on this park bench talking to you IS reality and non-duality at the same time." Artur immediately got it, and said, "Yes, this is it." I almost laughed out loud. After they drove us to a great little restaurant where we had a delicious tomato-based flounder and shrimp stew with rice, and they drove us back to town, Carol found out that I had given him a copy of PC. When we got to our room she fussed at me, and said, "Artur is neither political nor religious; he has no interest in ND." I said, "I know that, but he likes good stories, and he told me that life is an adventure, so I thought he'd like to read about some of my adventures." We both agreed that Artur is perfect just the way he is. When we went to leave the hotel the next day, the desk clerk said, "Someone left something here for you," and handed me a bag. Artur had left us both gifts and a very sweet card about his enjoyment of sharing Portugal with us. He is truly an incredible man, and one of the few people I've met who doesn't need to seek anything. On our walk together he told me that he is happy all the time. That's about as good as it gets. After we got to Porto, Artur sent me photos from southern Spain where he and his wife have gone for a short vacation. If anyone ever wants a great tour guide for Portugal, let me know and I'll send his name and how to contact him. My point is that not everyone needs to be a seeker to be a happy human. Bom dia, and Amen to that! "Spirituality" is part of the mind-made meta-reality. There is no need for it, if you do not get so lost in the meta-reality in the first place. One might ask traditional Christians a question like: "if you were on a desert island, and you never had the Bible, how would you know the truth?" In a similar way, if someone is really into "spiritual" talk, you might ask them: What would your life look like if you never wrote or spoke about so-called "spirituality" or "non-duality" ever again? Your experience in Portugal points to the answer, which is different for everyone. "Be true to yourself" can be useful advice. And how refreshing that it's different for everyone. I sometimes run into spiritual seekers who seem to believe that life all about getting some back-of-the-book "right" answer ("Self Realization") and then babbling about it, echoing Ramana Maharshi, until the cows come home. If we need that, ChatGPT or other AI bots can do it! |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 27, 2024 10:08:55 GMT -5
As always there needs to be a foundation to support whatever is taught in these regards. From what I have witnessed regarding what other's say and quote on forums about non duality still reflects confusion, opposites and inconsistencies where things don't add up. Over the years we have heard it all haven't we. We have had teachers that make complete u-turns, we have had differences of perspective had from one teacher's first book to their last. We have teachers that say they are not here and charge money to their non existent students and some that collect Rolls Royces like a trophy haul. There doesn't even seem to be some-one-thing that can even be here to use the right means in the wrong way and yet what is said is supposedly mean't to carry some element of truth to some. Peeps it seems kant even understand what constitutes an individual that can experience life. I was going to say life as we know it, butt depending on where you are coming from and self relating with or too there maybe no one present that can experience nor come from anyway pertaining to their perception that can be dreamy or not true based upon the supposed senses we use to navigate this so called world or plane of existence. I saw a snippet of a video a while ago where the non duality teacher was speaking about appearances arising in the dream and I thought here we go again lol
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
For some reason this story came to mind, don't know why. 51 years plus one month ago, I went on a SCUBA diving trip off Grand Bahama Island, I had just gotten PADI certified from taking a SCUBA diving course at school, UNCC. There were about 20 of us on a converted mine sweeper, there was a crew of 4 I think it was. One night the cook was fishing off the side of the boat, a lady. She asked: Does anybody want this, her rod and reel. I said I'll take it. Before long I caught a tiny orange fish, about 3 inches long. I took it off the hook and threw it back in the water. I asked another crew member there, do you have any more bait? He answered, You just threw your bait overboard. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2024 10:17:34 GMT -5
As always there needs to be a foundation to support whatever is taught in these regards. From what I have witnessed regarding what other's say and quote on forums about non duality still reflects confusion, opposites and inconsistencies where things don't add up. Over the years we have heard it all haven't we. We have had teachers that make complete u-turns, we have had differences of perspective had from one teacher's first book to their last. We have teachers that say they are not here and charge money to their non existent students and some that collect Rolls Royces like a trophy haul. There doesn't even seem to be some-one-thing that can even be here to use the right means in the wrong way and yet what is said is supposedly mean't to carry some element of truth to some. Peeps it seems kant even understand what constitutes an individual that can experience life. I was going to say life as we know it, butt depending on where you are coming from and self relating with or too there maybe no one present that can experience nor come from anyway pertaining to their perception that can be dreamy or not true based upon the supposed senses we use to navigate this so called world or plane of existence. I saw a snippet of a video a while ago where the non duality teacher was speaking about appearances arising in the dream and I thought here we go again lol
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"...
Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark.
People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
True, there is nothing wrong with fancy cars, or sexual experiences. I'm not very familiar with any serious spiritual guides who outright condemn such things, or who glorify poverty. However, the "Rolls Royce" is a kind of symbol or for something else that one might perceive about a so-called spiritual "guru". And that something else is a bit harder to describe, so one might say "women and Rolls Royces" as a kind of shorthand. What they're really pointing to is the ulterior motive and the hidden mind-driven desires in a person who pretends to be something they're not, and pretends to have transcended the ego mind. Sometimes the farce is wild and blatant - cult leaders demanding payments or sex with students, etc. Other times it can be better hidden, like someone having a need to be praised, respected, and affirmed. I have personally met a few such people, and they can cause problems for themselves and for any "students" who might temporarily get pulled into their orbit. Some people find that situation to be sinister, but in my opinion comedy is a key part of this Universe. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 27, 2024 10:31:44 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
I'm with you most of the way here. There's obviously nothing good or bad with how THIS can manifest (except in imagination), but I think that the deeper one sees into the nature of THIS, the more one feels compassion for others and the less self concern there is. The less self concern, the more boddhisattvahood. A Buddha only wants to help others find the peace, happiness, equanimity, and freedom that s/he has found. FWIW, we were referred to a terrific tour guide in Portugal, and he turned out to be incredible. He's a walking encyclopedia, speaks 5 or 6 languages and knows a smattering of many more. He was an exchange student in the USA, so he's fluent in English, Mandarin, Portuguese (his home), and Spanish, and is close to fluent in Mandarin and Japanese with a workable knowledge of French, Italian, German, and a bit of Russian. He gave us a fantastic tour of Lisbon that avoided all lines, showed us amazing sights, taught us the history of Portugal, and much more. He was trained as a graphics designer and majored in photography and film making, but he started being a tour guide three years ago and enjoyed it so much that it is now becoming his full-time job. He's one of the happiest and most compassionate individuals we're ever met. If one is with Artur, one is in good hands because he cares deeply about the welfare and enjoyment of his clients. While in Lisbon he showed us places that most tourists probably never see because they don't look impressive from the outside. Artur lives in Cascais, which was our next destination. He advised taking the train because it runs along the ocean, is cheap, and is a very scenic 40 minute ride. After we arrived there, he gave us a tour of that city. He loves to walk, and he claims that he never gets tired, and can fall asleep anywhere in seconds. Our tour ended at about 1500 hours, and after we took Carol back to our hotel, he asked if I wanted to hike with him. At a tapas restaurant where we ate a friend of his had told him that flowers were blooming on a path leading out of town, and he wanted to see them. I joined him and we hiked for at least an hour up a valley as he pointed out various fruit trees, animals, and a thousand other things. I had brought no water with me, and after an hour, I flaked out, and told him I was ready to return to town. If I hadn't been with him, I think he would have kept going. We climbed a hill, caught a bus, and rode through Sintra and all through small hillside communities on the way back. By the time I got back to our hotel it was 1800 and I had clocked 10 miles and more than 20,000 steps. He told me that he regularly walks between 20,000 and 25,000 steps almost every day. The next day Carol and I were walking through town and ran into Artur by accident. He suggested that we visit a free city museum that was totally cool and high tech, and then we went to a tapas bar for snacks and drinks. On our last night in Cascais (our fifth day) he told us that he and his wife wanted to take us to dinner at one of their fave restaurants. I told Carol that I wanted to give him a copy of Pouring Concrete, not for any ND stuff, but just because I thought he might enjoy some of the stories. Carol said, "No. Don't do it! He doesn't need to seek anything because he already has what everyone else is looking for!" Haha. That definitely gave me a laugh. Nevertheless, I couldn't help myself. I learned enough additional Portuguese to say, "This book is a book about non-duality, but ignore non-duality and see if you find the stories interesting." I met Artur and his wife in a small park near the hotel while Carol was still getting dressed. I gave him the book and my message. His wife looked at me strangely and said, "Nao-dualidade?" (Non-duality?) I said, "Yes, but forget about that. This is just a book about some of my adventures that I thought Artur might enjoy. Then she asked, "What is the difference between non-duality and reality (realidade)?" I said, there is no difference. Sitting here on this park bench talking to you IS reality and non-duality at the same time." Artur immediately got it, and said, "Yes, this is it." I almost laughed out loud. After they drove us to a great little restaurant where we had a delicious tomato-based flounder and shrimp stew with rice, and they drove us back to town, Carol found out that I had given him a copy of PC. When we got to our room she fussed at me, and said, "Artur is neither political nor religious; he has no interest in ND." I said, "I know that, but he likes good stories, and he told me that life is an adventure, so I thought he'd like to read about some of my adventures." We both agreed that Artur is perfect just the way he is. When we went to leave the hotel the next day, the desk clerk said, "Someone left something here for you," and handed me a bag. Artur had left us both gifts and a very sweet card about his enjoyment of sharing Portugal with us. He is truly an incredible human being, and one of the few people I've met who doesn't need to seek anything. On our walk together he told me that he is happy all the time. That's about as good as it gets. After we got to Porto, Artur sent me photos from southern Spain where he and his wife have gone for a short vacation. If anyone ever wants a great tour guide for Portugal, let me know and I'll send you his name and how to contact him. My point is that not everyone needs to be a seeker to be a happy human. My oldest daughter lived in Spain almost six years, she loved it. She had been in the Coast Guard, had been stationed in Guam, met and married a Navy guy, EOD. They alternated picking duty stations, she picked Spain after Oak Harbor, Washington, husband stationed at Rota. Normally that's 3 years, but husband had found hunting and hunting buddies in Spain, so he was up for staying another 3 years, which worked out. Grandson was two when they moved to Spain, granddaughter was newly born, so they both grew up speaking Spanish. They were there during COVID, Spain had very strict measures. My daughter and the two kids went back to visit old friends early Spring. I asked if the kids picked back up their Spanish easily, she said son did, picked it back up more easily than daughter. I'm pretty sure I remember her talking about visiting Portugal while living in Spain. I think I remember pictures of a city that had a lot of blue tiles. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 27, 2024 12:11:34 GMT -5
There's practice and then there's practice. Anything the "SVP" does (I like my new term, self-avatar), is not really correct practice. True practice isn't done-with thinking, or feeling/emotions or learned bodily actions, and sensations are obviously passive (receptive). Correct practice is already outside/apart-from thinking, outside feeling/emotions, outside bodily actions and outside sensations. Correct practice never just happens, it's the beginning of volition. Everything happens up to the point one learns how to make a conscious effort. A conscious effort is always volitional, never just happens. Everything apart from conscious efforts still just happens, all thoughts, all feelings/emotions, all learned bodily actions and all sensations, all events just happen. We have to become two, that which observes and that which is observed. ~We~, that is, something {else} apart from the self-avatar, observes the functions, thinking, feelings/emotions, bodily actions and sensations. The self-avatar is formed-from thinking, feelings/emotions, and muscle memory. This something {else} apart from all that, is one's True Self. Just a little further. Each center (moving center-learned bodily actions; emotional center; and intellectual center) is divided into 3 parts, a moving part an emotional part and an intellectual part. Conditioning exists in the moving and emotional parts. The intellectual parts of the centers are quiet, silent, unconditioned. I have to take all that into consideration in answering your question. But conscious efforts are about cutting through maya, more simply, imagination, what's imaginary. That means they are about dismantling the self-avatar (not just seeing through it, not just seeing it's imaginary). It's all about energy. Beelzebub's Tales is an allegory about the how and why the inhabitants of earth are ruled by suggestibility, or imagination. What most people think of as practice, isn't correct practice. That makes a lot of sense to me....except....I still see the double edge sword. Way I see it, a clever practice will engage with the dualistic matrix is such way, so as to collapse the matrix. But there comes a point in that collapse, when any engagement with the dualistic matrix, perpetuates the matrix. Hopefully you see why that would be the case. Engaging with a flawed system, even with the best intentions and the best practice, can still perpetuate the existence of that system. I'm not saying that you...or anyone, shouldn't practice. Far from it. But I believe it's useful to see the intrinsic limitation. And I won't be surprised if at some point you find yourself in a phase in which it seems like your capacity to practice is diminishing, and it might seem counter to all you have been sincerely and admirably looking to attain. But it won't be a bad thing, it will still be spiritual growth. Just a different phase. We make a distinction between the centers, and the contents of the centers. Essence is what you are born with or born as. A baby is born with its mind functioning, so the mind itself belongs to essence (what you truly are). A baby collects data about the world through the senses. The ~contents~ of the centers are what form the "SVP"-self-avatar. Part of the process of this teaching is to empty the centers of their contents. That's what practice accomplishes, living through attention or awareness, not-living-through the contents of the centers, thoughts, (acquired)-feelings/emotions, and learned bodily actions. So, yes, there can be a period of living in no man's land, this is called living between two chairs. The only solution is to "just keep working". There is also a practice, nonidentification. Being identified is thrown around a lot here, but we have a very specific definition. The following gets close to my comfort zone, almost crosses it, in relating specific practices. But it is given in In Search of the Miraculous, so technically there isn't a problem. Let me first make an aside comment. Practice is about living as-if-one-were-conscious, it's living the end result, to bring the end result. If one merely lives through thoughts, feelings/emotions and bodily actions, this is not-being-conscious, in the way Gurdjieff used the word. Aside ended, back to nonidentification. When your attention goes-into, is taken by, absorbed into, thoughts, (learned)-feelings/emotions or learned bodily actions (the contents of the centers), that is the state of identification. Most people live 99.999% of the time, identified. They don't even know any other way to live. So nonidentification is withdrawing one's attention from thoughts, (learned) feelings/emotions, learned bodily actions. This, eventually, collapses the self-avatar, eventually completely. Do the memories of what-one-once-was still exist? Yes. (This probably relates to what Gary Weber found about self-circuits in the brain, the data ceases to-be self-circuits, merely then exists as neural circuits). That speaks to your question (hopefully). What one then is, nobody in the tradition talks about (but there can be mutual understanding, experience). We can live under different influences. Right here, same earth, same neighborhood even, but we can live under different influences. The Cosmology is an outward representation of the inner. The next set of influences one can live under is represented by the planetary world, all planets. Once I heard it said, English, nor any spoken language, any conceptual language, is spoken on the planetary level. There isn't any teaching on the face of the earth comparable to what Gurdjieff taught. Believe me, I've looked. |
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Post by zendancer on May 27, 2024 12:18:57 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
For some reason this story came to mind, don't know why. 51 years plus one month ago, I went on a SCUBA diving trip off Grand Bahama Island, I had just gotten PADI certified from taking a SCUBA diving course at school, UNCC. There were about 20 of us on a converted mine sweeper, there was a crew of 4 I think it was. One night the cook was fishing off the side of the boat, a lady. She asked: Does anybody want this, her rod and reel. I said I'll take it. Before long I caught a tiny orange fish, about 3 inches long. I took it off the hook and threw it back in the water. I asked another crew member there, do you have any more bait? He answered, You just threw your bait overboard. That's a great story! |
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Post by andrew on May 27, 2024 12:46:32 GMT -5
That makes a lot of sense to me....except....I still see the double edge sword. Way I see it, a clever practice will engage with the dualistic matrix is such way, so as to collapse the matrix. But there comes a point in that collapse, when any engagement with the dualistic matrix, perpetuates the matrix. Hopefully you see why that would be the case. Engaging with a flawed system, even with the best intentions and the best practice, can still perpetuate the existence of that system. I'm not saying that you...or anyone, shouldn't practice. Far from it. But I believe it's useful to see the intrinsic limitation. And I won't be surprised if at some point you find yourself in a phase in which it seems like your capacity to practice is diminishing, and it might seem counter to all you have been sincerely and admirably looking to attain. But it won't be a bad thing, it will still be spiritual growth. Just a different phase. We make a distinction between the centers, and the contents of the centers. Essence is what you are born with or born as. A baby is born with its mind functioning, so the mind itself belongs to essence (what you truly are). A baby collects data about the world through the senses. The ~contents~ of the centers are what form the "SVP"-self-avatar. Part of the process of this teaching is to empty the centers of their contents. That's what practice accomplishes, living through attention or awareness, not-living-through the contents of the centers, thoughts, (acquired)-feelings/emotions, and learned bodily actions. So, yes, there can be a period of living in no man's land, this is called living between two chairs. The only solution is to "just keep working". There is also a practice, nonidentification. Being identified is thrown around a lot here, but we have a very specific definition. The following gets close to my comfort zone, almost crosses it, in relating specific practices. But it is given in In Search of the Miraculous, so technically there isn't a problem. Let me first make an aside comment. Practice is about living as-if-one-were-conscious, it's living the end result, to bring the end result. If one merely lives through thoughts, feelings/emotions and bodily actions, this is not-being-conscious, in the way Gurdjieff used the word. Aside ended, back to nonidentification. When your attention goes-into, is taken by, absorbed into, thoughts, (learned)-feelings/emotions or learned bodily actions (the contents of the centers), that is the state of identification. Most people live 99.999% of the time, identified. They don't even know any other way to live. So nonidentification is withdrawing one's attention from thoughts, (learned) feelings/emotions, learned bodily actions. This, eventually, collapses the self-avatar, eventually completely. Do the memories of what-one-once-was still exist? Yes. (This probably relates to what Gary Weber found about self-circuits in the brain, the data ceases to-be self-circuits, merely then exists as neural circuits). That speaks to your question (hopefully). What one then is, nobody in the tradition talks about (but there can be mutual understanding, experience). We can live under different influences. Right here, same earth, same neighborhood even, but we can live under different influences. The Cosmology is an outward representation of the inner. The next set of influences one can live under is represented by the planetary world, all planets. Once I heard it said, English, nor any spoken language, any conceptual language, is spoken on the planetary level. There isn't any teaching on the face of the earth comparable to what Gurdjieff taught. Believe me, I've looked. I followed Jeff Foster's story about his illness with interest on facebook a couple of years ago. I felt he described it very honestly. He seems to have recovered, which is nice, though I'm no longer enjoying his messages so much (more of a teaching vibe to them, even though he disclaims that they are teaching). In his illness, he lost the capacity to move attention/awareness at will. Some consider that capacity our last 'volition', our last 'freedom'. A capacity that goes beyond our capacity to move our bodies at will, or think the thoughts we want to think, at will. And yet, he undoubtedly grew spiritually through that experience. It humbled him in a positive way. He turned to 'God' in a way that he had never turned to before. That's all he could do. In his own words, he was left with nothing but to beg. He had a tough time for sure (and I know you can relate to having had tough times). And through it all, I feel like he cultivated a deeper sense of what it means to 'rest in being'. In one way, a fundamental 'non-dual state'. The essence of what we are as 'spiritual beings having a human experience'. I have sometimes wondered why you are drawn to talk to non-dualists, that you generally disagree with. It seems to me that even though you disagree with them, that something compels you to have the discussion with them. Has it occurred to you, that even though there's intellectual disagreement, that there's something in your unconscious mind that senses they have something to offer you? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 27, 2024 14:53:41 GMT -5
We make a distinction between the centers, and the contents of the centers. Essence is what you are born with or born as. A baby is born with its mind functioning, so the mind itself belongs to essence (what you truly are). A baby collects data about the world through the senses. The ~contents~ of the centers are what form the "SVP"-self-avatar. Part of the process of this teaching is to empty the centers of their contents. That's what practice accomplishes, living through attention or awareness, not-living-through the contents of the centers, thoughts, (acquired)-feelings/emotions, and learned bodily actions. So, yes, there can be a period of living in no man's land, this is called living between two chairs. The only solution is to "just keep working". There is also a practice, nonidentification. Being identified is thrown around a lot here, but we have a very specific definition. The following gets close to my comfort zone, almost crosses it, in relating specific practices. But it is given in In Search of the Miraculous, so technically there isn't a problem. Let me first make an aside comment. Practice is about living as-if-one-were-conscious, it's living the end result, to bring the end result. If one merely lives through thoughts, feelings/emotions and bodily actions, this is not-being-conscious, in the way Gurdjieff used the word. Aside ended, back to nonidentification. When your attention goes-into, is taken by, absorbed into, thoughts, (learned)-feelings/emotions or learned bodily actions (the contents of the centers), that is the state of identification. Most people live 99.999% of the time, identified. They don't even know any other way to live. So nonidentification is withdrawing one's attention from thoughts, (learned) feelings/emotions, learned bodily actions. This, eventually, collapses the self-avatar, eventually completely. Do the memories of what-one-once-was still exist? Yes. (This probably relates to what Gary Weber found about self-circuits in the brain, the data ceases to-be self-circuits, merely then exists as neural circuits). That speaks to your question (hopefully). What one then is, nobody in the tradition talks about (but there can be mutual understanding, experience). We can live under different influences. Right here, same earth, same neighborhood even, but we can live under different influences. The Cosmology is an outward representation of the inner. The next set of influences one can live under is represented by the planetary world, all planets. Once I heard it said, English, nor any spoken language, any conceptual language, is spoken on the planetary level. There isn't any teaching on the face of the earth comparable to what Gurdjieff taught. Believe me, I've looked. I followed Jeff Foster's story about his illness with interest on facebook a couple of years ago. I felt he described it very honestly. He seems to have recovered, which is nice, though I'm no longer enjoying his messages so much (more of a teaching vibe to them, even though he disclaims that they are teaching). In his illness, he lost the capacity to move attention/awareness at will. Some consider that capacity our last 'volition', our last 'freedom'. A capacity that goes beyond our capacity to move our bodies at will, or think the thoughts we want to think, at will. And yet, he undoubtedly grew spiritually through that experience. It humbled him in a positive way. He turned to 'God' in a way that he had never turned to before. That's all he could do. In his own words, he was left with nothing but to beg. He had a tough time for sure (and I know you can relate to having had tough times). And through it all, I feel like he cultivated a deeper sense of what it means to 'rest in being'. In one way, a fundamental 'non-dual state'. The essence of what we are as 'spiritual beings having a human experience'. I have sometimes wondered why you are drawn to talk to non-dualists, that you generally disagree with. It seems to me that even though you disagree with them, that something compels you to have the discussion with them. Has it occurred to you, that even though there's intellectual disagreement, that there's something in your unconscious mind that senses they have something to offer you? I don't disagree with nondualists, they disagree with me. ...I've gone into it just about as extensively as possible. But they think I'm the Chuang Tzu frog in a well, I think they're a frog in a well. Pretty-much, stalemate. "Have you not heard of the frog that lived in the well? It said to the turtle of the Eastern Sea, "I am so happy! I jump about the railings of the well, rest at the crack on the bricks; when I dive into the water, they support my arms and chin; when I scramble in the mud, they bury my feet and toes. I interact with crabs and play with minnows; nobody can compare to me. Furthermore, I dominate the water in this well, and enjoy the joy of being in the well. Isn't it wonderful? Why don't you come down and have a look?" The turtle of the Eastern Sea tried to get in the well, but before his left leg could even enter, his right knee was already stuck. So, it circled around and went back, and told the frog, "A thousand miles cannot describe its vastness; a thousand fathoms cannot measure its depth. In the time of Yu, there were floods nine out of ten years, yet the sea did not increase; in the time of Tang, there were droughts seven out of eight years, yet the cliffs did not decrease. The sea does not change with the passing of time or the amount of water it contains, this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea." When the frog in the well heard this, it was astonished and could not find words to reply." ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I trust experience over realization. |
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Post by laughter on May 27, 2024 15:11:31 GMT -5
I have said it before, some strains of non duality is likened to a cult status where it can be brainwashing, enough so to make some peeps out right liars or delusional. Dangerous as the website points out. I would agree if it turns a peep to believe a reality not lived. I know that many whom are heavily invested in any type of mind set find it difficult to let go of when questioned and put to the test. I have had a few chats with a few other's lately about non duality and it seems the same patterns are present wherever you go. It's really is weird tbh. It does show again that non-duality taught out of context, to the wrong people who are not ready yet, without supervision, can be potentially harmful to mental health. Which is why, I guess, in TAV, there's a long list for what a qualified teacher and a qualified student looks like and why they don't teach non-duality right away, but only after some mental and also physical preparation. As Alan Watts was always quoting the old taoists: "When the wrong man uses the right means, the right means work in the wrong way." So this translates quite directly into conventional life. There aren't many opportunities for nonduality to come up as part of a conversation for me, but sometimes it happens when you least expect it. Mostly I talk about it with my wife, and in real time, what can happen is that I think I'm telling the truth, but if I hear her hearing it as a lie, I stop talking about it.  |
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Post by andrew on May 27, 2024 22:39:01 GMT -5
I followed Jeff Foster's story about his illness with interest on facebook a couple of years ago. I felt he described it very honestly. He seems to have recovered, which is nice, though I'm no longer enjoying his messages so much (more of a teaching vibe to them, even though he disclaims that they are teaching). In his illness, he lost the capacity to move attention/awareness at will. Some consider that capacity our last 'volition', our last 'freedom'. A capacity that goes beyond our capacity to move our bodies at will, or think the thoughts we want to think, at will. And yet, he undoubtedly grew spiritually through that experience. It humbled him in a positive way. He turned to 'God' in a way that he had never turned to before. That's all he could do. In his own words, he was left with nothing but to beg. He had a tough time for sure (and I know you can relate to having had tough times). And through it all, I feel like he cultivated a deeper sense of what it means to 'rest in being'. In one way, a fundamental 'non-dual state'. The essence of what we are as 'spiritual beings having a human experience'. I have sometimes wondered why you are drawn to talk to non-dualists, that you generally disagree with. It seems to me that even though you disagree with them, that something compels you to have the discussion with them. Has it occurred to you, that even though there's intellectual disagreement, that there's something in your unconscious mind that senses they have something to offer you? I don't disagree with nondualists, they disagree with me. ...I've gone into it just about as extensively as possible. But they think I'm the Chuang Tzu frog in a well, I think they're a frog in a well. Pretty-much, stalemate. "Have you not heard of the frog that lived in the well? It said to the turtle of the Eastern Sea, "I am so happy! I jump about the railings of the well, rest at the crack on the bricks; when I dive into the water, they support my arms and chin; when I scramble in the mud, they bury my feet and toes. I interact with crabs and play with minnows; nobody can compare to me. Furthermore, I dominate the water in this well, and enjoy the joy of being in the well. Isn't it wonderful? Why don't you come down and have a look?" The turtle of the Eastern Sea tried to get in the well, but before his left leg could even enter, his right knee was already stuck. So, it circled around and went back, and told the frog, "A thousand miles cannot describe its vastness; a thousand fathoms cannot measure its depth. In the time of Yu, there were floods nine out of ten years, yet the sea did not increase; in the time of Tang, there were droughts seven out of eight years, yet the cliffs did not decrease. The sea does not change with the passing of time or the amount of water it contains, this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea." When the frog in the well heard this, it was astonished and could not find words to reply." ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I trust experience over realization. Well...it does seem like you do a bit of disagreeing too! I haven't seen that frog analogy before (seems like there's a ton of analogies with frogs in!) and it's a good one. Ffor me, I've learned something from every regular participant here. Maybe 'learning' isn't the best word. Maybe even better to say I've 'absorbed' something from every regular participant. Not all at the same time obviously. Different phases of my life have drawn me to different participants, and it might sometimes be in the form of argument. So to be clear, I don't see your spirituality as wrong. No-one's spirituality here is wrong. I guess if I have a question....and I'm going to pick ZD, because I think he's someone that you discuss these things with most of all.....but do you get why ZD's spirituality 'works' for him i.e what it gives him? I get it. And I can draw from it at times, while knowing that his 'individuality' and spirituality is unique to him, and my 'individuality' and spirituality is unique to me. |
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Post by andrew on May 27, 2024 23:01:30 GMT -5
Haha! I know what you mean, that's the "youtube neo-advaita" shtick, aka "it's all empty appearances", "it's all just a story", "it's all just dream stuff"... Which is not wrong per se, but if that's all you've got, then that's just one side of the coin. You gotta talk about what is real and actual also to balance that out or else you are in mind-enlightenment territory.
I have a different take on the Rolls Royce guru issue though. Realization of Self, the Infinite, also means being in alignment with Self, the Infinite. Which means alignment with abundance, any kind of abundance, including material abundance. So when I see teachers like Ramakrishna condemning "women and gold" or other gurus glorifying poverty, that's incongruent with SR and the natural state and way off the mark. People often believe and spiritual teachers also often teach that you cannot be rich and spiritual at the same time, while ignoring the fact that everything comes from and actually is spirit, including "women and gold".
In Campbell's Hero's Journey model, there is a stage right at the end that he called "Mastery of the two worlds". Which is about living in the physical world while fully grounded in the non-physical world, i.e. being able to live in both worlds at the same time, in fact not actually making that distinction between these two worlds anymore. And so if that's the case, what's the problem with having a whole fleet of Rolls Royce?
I'm with you most of the way here. There's obviously nothing good or bad with how THIS can manifest (except in imagination), but I think that the deeper one sees into the nature of THIS, the more one feels compassion for others and the less self concern there is. The less self concern, the more boddhisattvahood. A Buddha only wants to help others find the peace, happiness, equanimity, and freedom that s/he has found. FWIW, we were referred to a terrific tour guide in Portugal, and he turned out to be incredible. He's a walking encyclopedia, speaks 5 or 6 languages and knows a smattering of many more. He was an exchange student in the USA, so he's fluent in English, Mandarin, Portuguese (his home), and Spanish, and is close to fluent in Mandarin and Japanese with a workable knowledge of French, Italian, German, and a bit of Russian. He gave us a fantastic tour of Lisbon that avoided all lines, showed us amazing sights, taught us the history of Portugal, and much more. He was trained as a graphics designer and majored in photography and film making, but he started being a tour guide three years ago and enjoyed it so much that it is now becoming his full-time job. He's one of the happiest and most compassionate individuals we're ever met. If one is with Artur, one is in good hands because he cares deeply about the welfare and enjoyment of his clients. While in Lisbon he showed us places that most tourists probably never see because they don't look impressive from the outside. Artur lives in Cascais, which was our next destination. He advised taking the train because it runs along the ocean, is cheap, and is a very scenic 40 minute ride. After we arrived there, he gave us a tour of that city. He loves to walk, and he claims that he never gets tired, and can fall asleep anywhere in seconds. Our tour ended at about 1500 hours, and after we took Carol back to our hotel, he asked if I wanted to hike with him. At a tapas restaurant where we ate a friend of his had told him that flowers were blooming on a path leading out of town, and he wanted to see them. I joined him and we hiked for at least an hour up a valley as he pointed out various fruit trees, animals, and a thousand other things. I had brought no water with me, and after an hour, I flaked out, and told him I was ready to return to town. If I hadn't been with him, I think he would have kept going. We climbed a hill, caught a bus, and rode through Sintra and all through small hillside communities on the way back. By the time I got back to our hotel it was 1800 and I had clocked 10 miles and more than 20,000 steps. He told me that he regularly walks between 20,000 and 25,000 steps almost every day. The next day Carol and I were walking through town and ran into Artur by accident. He suggested that we visit a free city museum that was totally cool and high tech, and then we went to a tapas bar for snacks and drinks. On our last night in Cascais (our fifth day) he told us that he and his wife wanted to take us to dinner at one of their fave restaurants. I told Carol that I wanted to give him a copy of Pouring Concrete, not for any ND stuff, but just because I thought he might enjoy some of the stories. Carol said, "No. Don't do it! He doesn't need to seek anything because he already has what everyone else is looking for!" Haha. That definitely gave me a laugh. Nevertheless, I couldn't help myself. I learned enough additional Portuguese to say, "This book is a book about non-duality, but ignore non-duality and see if you find the stories interesting." I met Artur and his wife in a small park near the hotel while Carol was still getting dressed. I gave him the book and my message. His wife looked at me strangely and said, "Nao-dualidade?" (Non-duality?) I said, "Yes, but forget about that. This is just a book about some of my adventures that I thought Artur might enjoy. Then she asked, "What is the difference between non-duality and reality (realidade)?" I said, there is no difference. Sitting here on this park bench talking to you IS reality and non-duality at the same time." Artur immediately got it, and said, "Yes, this is it." I almost laughed out loud. After they drove us to a great little restaurant where we had a delicious tomato-based flounder and shrimp stew with rice, and they drove us back to town, Carol found out that I had given him a copy of PC. When we got to our room she fussed at me, and said, "Artur is neither political nor religious; he has no interest in ND." I said, "I know that, but he likes good stories, and he told me that life is an adventure, so I thought he'd like to read about some of my adventures." We both agreed that Artur is perfect just the way he is. When we went to leave the hotel the next day, the desk clerk said, "Someone left something here for you," and handed me a bag. Artur had left us both gifts and a very sweet card about his enjoyment of sharing Portugal with us. He is truly an incredible human being, and one of the few people I've met who doesn't need to seek anything. On our walk together he told me that he is happy all the time. That's about as good as it gets. After we got to Porto, Artur sent me photos from southern Spain where he and his wife have gone for a short vacation. If anyone ever wants a great tour guide for Portugal, let me know and I'll send you his name and how to contact him. My point is that not everyone needs to be a seeker to be a happy human. wow, the universe rendezvoused you with a really cool guy! And I think you are right, there are some happy humans around just doing their thing, and living their lives. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 28, 2024 6:57:01 GMT -5
I don't disagree with nondualists, they disagree with me. ...I've gone into it just about as extensively as possible. But they think I'm the Chuang Tzu frog in a well, I think they're a frog in a well. Pretty-much, stalemate. "Have you not heard of the frog that lived in the well? It said to the turtle of the Eastern Sea, "I am so happy! I jump about the railings of the well, rest at the crack on the bricks; when I dive into the water, they support my arms and chin; when I scramble in the mud, they bury my feet and toes. I interact with crabs and play with minnows; nobody can compare to me. Furthermore, I dominate the water in this well, and enjoy the joy of being in the well. Isn't it wonderful? Why don't you come down and have a look?" The turtle of the Eastern Sea tried to get in the well, but before his left leg could even enter, his right knee was already stuck. So, it circled around and went back, and told the frog, "A thousand miles cannot describe its vastness; a thousand fathoms cannot measure its depth. In the time of Yu, there were floods nine out of ten years, yet the sea did not increase; in the time of Tang, there were droughts seven out of eight years, yet the cliffs did not decrease. The sea does not change with the passing of time or the amount of water it contains, this is the great joy of the Eastern Sea." When the frog in the well heard this, it was astonished and could not find words to reply." ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I trust experience over realization. I haven't seen that frog analogy before (seems like there's a ton of analogies with frogs in!) and it's a good one. Ffor me, I've learned something from every regular participant here. Maybe 'learning' isn't the best word. Maybe even better to say I've 'absorbed' something from every regular participant. Not all at the same time obviously. Different phases of my life have drawn me to different participants, and it might sometimes be in the form of argument. So to be clear, I don't see your spirituality as wrong. No-one's spirituality here is wrong. I guess if I have a question....and I'm going to pick ZD, because I think he's someone that you discuss these things with most of all.....but do you get why ZD's spirituality 'works' for him i.e what it gives him? I get it. And I can draw from it at times, while knowing that his 'individuality' and spirituality is unique to him, and my 'individuality' and spirituality is unique to me. There's another story, I always attributed it to Chuang Tzu, but when I searched it wasn't there. There was a fisherman once who was convinced there were no fish smaller than 2 inches in the ocean. He tried to convince another man, who was a bit more clever than he was. The fisherman said he had fished with his net all his life and had never caught anything smaller than 2 inches, so there can't be a smaller fish in the ocean. The guy he was trying to persuade said, go get your net. And he then pointed out that the mesh of his net was, two inches. Any fish smaller than 2 inches would just fall through the mesh and would never be caught. An ordinary man has only a certain capacity for sifting reality, a certain level of being. I've only ever tried to point out that our mesh isn't tightly woven enough to 'catch' All That Is. I encapsulated all that into the frog in a well story. The NDist think I'm the frog in a well, I think they're the frog in a well. But, Gurdjieff said we can alter our capacity to experience reality, that is, we can change our level of being, we are designed thusly. IOW, there's always further. Yes, on all that concerning their view, I disagree. I did chase down the fishing net story, it came from Sir Authur Eddington, the astronomer. He's the guy who proved Einstein's (1915) General Relativity during the total solar eclipse of 1919. I have no problem whatsoever with ZD and his view and how he lives his life, and he is accurate, as far as it goes. All I do is try to share my own view. I know I can't defend my view. There is a whole process, all the initiative has to come from the beginner. There can be no coercion whatsoever, no persuading. In fact, at a certain point, there is dissuading. So Gurdjieff was just a seed-sower, and man himself is also a seed. In my signature is a law, you can't see above your own level of being. You can get a glimpse, the glimpse is to entice you to want to see. |
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Post by zazeniac on May 28, 2024 9:41:56 GMT -5
I don't think there's any thing as a nondualist. That would be an oxymoron. To say "I'm a nondualist."
What is more discomforting than blather about nonduality is making claims about "freedom" when your head is clearly up your ass. Not that mine isn't which is why I make no such claim.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 28, 2024 9:47:54 GMT -5
Yes, exactly. My problem is, there is a claim to see through the illusion of self, then you go on living through that which the illusion consists of.
My view, you first understand theoretically, head up arse, you exist as functioning through the conditioning acquired. Some of this you see easily, as you wouldn't be on a spiritual journey if all is roses in your life, of course there are exceptions. But you just observe, and observe, and keep observing. This takes the energy out of the artificial structure. Eventually you can see, Oh, I'm not the head up the arse, I'm that which can see it, ~I'm not that~. But, then, you have a choice which to be, the crap, continue functioning through the conditioning, or to-Be that which sees it is not crap.
The nondual view, it's OK to remain ~what you were~, you can't do anything else anyway.
The self, the self-avatar, the small s self, is almost like the smartest AI out there today, has an answer for every objection to itself, every justification, very weaselly. But that's basically its fulltime job, its very existence.
The ND view has kind of painted itself into a corner, to maintain ND, you have to in a very real sense embrace what's present, there, but then say, it's OK, because it's illusory.
The story of David and Goliath is about this war. David is essence, True Self, Goliath is the false self.
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