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Post by zazeniac on Apr 2, 2021 9:08:12 GMT -5
When we can move a political discussion beyond the personalities and labeling to issues, you find a tremendous amount of middle ground that normal everyday folks are willing to explore. The problem is if politicians even entertain the notion of compromise, they commit political suicide. It seems to a large extent the political base of both parties is recalcitrant and dogmatic. A we're saints, they're devils, communists and nazis, mentality pervades. This irrational pattern of passionate thinking is fed by a media apparatus that is more concerned with profit than truth.
The good news is a lot of folks are tiring of this as seen in the growth of "independent" voters.
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Post by andrew on Apr 2, 2021 12:47:44 GMT -5
When we can move a political discussion beyond the personalities and labeling to issues, you find a tremendous amount of middle ground that normal everyday folks are willing to explore. The problem is if politicians even entertain the notion of compromise, they commit political suicide. It seems to a large extent the political base of both parties is recalcitrant and dogmatic. A we're saints, they're devils, communists and nazis, mentality pervades. This irrational pattern of passionate thinking is fed by a media apparatus that is more concerned with profit than truth. The good news is a lot of folks are tiring of this as seen in the growth of "independent" voters. well only 10 weeks in and thus far the Dems have been on fire! (in a good way)
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Post by andrew on Apr 2, 2021 13:09:14 GMT -5
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Post by inavalan on Apr 2, 2021 13:36:28 GMT -5
Lao Tzu: 三十八章 上德不德,是以有德;下德不失德,是以无德。 上德无为而无以为;下德无为而有以为。 Chapter 38 The man of high virtue is not aware of his own virtue and therefore has (real) virtue; The man of low virtue tries hard not to lose his own virtue and therefore has no (real) virtue. The man of high virtue does nothing to show off his virtue; The man of low virtue does nothing yet tries to show off his virtue. yeeeah that's cool. I don't know Alan's history but I think he was quite studious in his studies, I can well imagine he looked at Lao Tzu. I brought up Lao Tzu, because Alan mentioned him in the video you posted: Attachments:
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Post by andrew on Apr 2, 2021 16:17:08 GMT -5
Did you get your vaccination passport yet? Bill Gates says it's the key to ending endless wars. Always trust your doctor!
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Post by inavalan on Apr 2, 2021 16:20:53 GMT -5
When we can move a political discussion beyond the personalities and labeling to issues, you find a tremendous amount of middle ground that normal everyday folks are willing to explore. The problem is if politicians even entertain the notion of compromise, they commit political suicide. It seems to a large extent the political base of both parties is recalcitrant and dogmatic. A we're saints, they're devils, communists and nazis, mentality pervades. This irrational pattern of passionate thinking is fed by a media apparatus that is more concerned with profit than truth. The good news is a lot of folks are tiring of this as seen in the growth of "independent" voters. well only 10 weeks in and thus far the Dems have been on fire! (in a good way) Fools' day was yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2021 21:20:36 GMT -5
Did you get your vaccination passport yet? Bill Gates says it's the key to ending endless wars. Always trust your doctor! [...] Careful posting full screenshots with your browser tabs. Many have died on that hill.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 3:48:21 GMT -5
A " subjective reality" if there ever was one. Andrew has been THE one person around here to have stretched himself to see both sides of an issue. Now you're morphing your point, which is a common tactic of the disingenuous propagandists who've hijacked the corporatist media.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 3:52:37 GMT -5
Lao Tzu: 三十八章 上德不德,是以有德;下德不失德,是以无德。 上德无为而无以为;下德无为而有以为。 Chapter 38 The man of high virtue is not aware of his own virtue and therefore has (real) virtue; The man of low virtue tries hard not to lose his own virtue and therefore has no (real) virtue. The man of high virtue does nothing to show off his virtue; The man of low virtue does nothing yet tries to show off his virtue. yeeeah that's cool. I don't know Alan's history but I think he was quite studious in his studies, I can well imagine he looked at Lao Tzu. He was a British Zen guy who seemed to me to have been instrumental in popularizing Zen in America during the mid-20th. Yes, I've seen him speak about the Tao. I'd say he was a key figure in the "beat generation", as well. There's a youtube channel devoted to him 24/7 that never stops.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 3:54:20 GMT -5
If we conceive of consciousness in purely mechanical terms, and use the consensus assumption that consciousness emerges from the physical structure of the brain, then it becomes clear everything we take as what we sense can be defined in terms of information. The information, as represented by the electrochemical processes happening in the brain. We can replace the assumption of consciousness emerging from the physical structure with the opposite: the physical structure arising from some sort of - as yet not fully understood and defined - higher-dimensional, apparently non-physical process (such as the one you described). Either way, it should be clear that no two sets of sensations are ever exactly alike, and we can even see this from the simple act of perspective and the nature of time: no two people ever see the Moon from exactly the same angle at exactly the same time. Your taste of honey, is not exactly the same, as my taste of honey. We can agree that the light is red, but that's an approximation, a gloss, as your red is not exactly the same, as my red. In any event, that's the basis for the notion of subjective reality, although the first version - where consciousness is an effect of the physical cause - requires an objective physical reality within which these all occur. But you see, 'pilgrim, all of this misses the point. It's a focus on the mechanics of the situation. You, however, cannot be defined in mechanical terms - and despite what you might otherwise feel and believe, your multi-dimensional model is still a rendering, in mechanical terms. All of these details can be interesting - practical even. But all of the dialog here is really only tangentially driven by those practical interests. Ultimately, these models are people expressing their curiosity about the world and themselves, a curiosity that can only ever be satisfied if one stops looking for the answer in terms of those models. No, "non-duality" doesn't say that there is only one actor - NOT in the terms that you're imagining people pointing with that idea to mean. It's not meant as a model that can explain and predict the way appearances appear. Neither assumption about the cause of consciousness is applicable, as, consciousness is, ultimately, uncaused. The intellect demands otherwise, and this is an existential falsity. I can accept most everything here except consciousness is uncaused. If there is anything consciousness is not, it's being uncaused. Whatever is caused, is dependent on the cause. There is no God (not in the way you imagine, anyway), and cause/effect is a duality that simply doesn't apply here.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 3:55:43 GMT -5
Were you aware of the parallels between what you experienced and Ramana Maharishi's story? Hmmm I hadn't considered it, but now you mention it, yes I can see some parallels. Fair to say that we both shared a deep contemplation and acceptance of dying. I think overall, he handled it all better than me I guess one of the benefits of being in India, is that these kinds of internal insights, changes and awakenings are part of the tradition. You aren't necessarily seen as 'crazy' or 'having a mental breakdown', in fact, I guess it's all seen as a positive thing, and there's a general level of support. Here in the UK (and west in general), the best advice I could really hope for was, 'man up, have a whisky, and go and get a job' I guess things have changed since then for the better to some extent, though the emphasis remains on the idea that 'what you are going through is a bad thing' Whether it's for the better is of course a matter of taste. .. and also, just to pinpoint, there's a particular Ramana story where he laid down and contemplated his death.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 3:58:12 GMT -5
A " subjective reality" if there ever was one. I definitely appreciated what SDP said, but I think there's a very tiny chance that there was a time when I was slightly less inclined towards peacemaking here tee hee .. there's that British talent for understatment.
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Post by laughter on Apr 3, 2021 4:00:42 GMT -5
Never took any notion of it on board myself. From the outside looking in, it would seem to me that any belief related to the potential continuity of the limited, unique perspective would be worth examining as possibly founded, perhaps unconsciously, on the fear of death. At a particularly day of crisis in May 1975, a firm conviction in the truth of reincarnation is the only thing that kept me from suicide. I sincerely longed for death for about 4 hours. Well, glad you got through it. I wouldn't begrudge anyone a similar sort of support in the notions of heaven and hell, either. It's just that there is a different potential path. One where all such notions have to be caste aside.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 3, 2021 8:41:11 GMT -5
At a particularly day of crisis in May 1975, a firm conviction in the truth of reincarnation is the only thing that kept me from suicide. I sincerely longed for death for about 4 hours. Well, glad you got through it. I wouldn't begrudge anyone a similar sort of support in the notions of heaven and hell, either. It's just that there is a different potential path. One where all such notions have to be caste aside. I'm only interested in objectively what is the case. CS Lewis has a pretty good take on heaven and hell. I forget where he discusses it (probably either The Problem of Pain or The Great Divorce, probably the latter) but he tells the story of those who are bound for hell but get to visit heaven. They find heaven unbearable. We all create our own heaven or our own hell. These arise out of minute by minute decisions in life. Neither is a permanent state. When you crystalize anything into a concept, then it becomes a lie. The Chinese got it right with the I Ching and Taoism. Constantly, there is a flow of yin becoming yang and yang becoming yin, in all things, this is the flow of life. The Tai Chi Supreme Ultimate Yin Yang symbol is an instant in time. The actual symbol would be a moving symbol. Surely someone has made such, I've never looked for it before. It took me about half an hour to find, but this is the demonstration I was looking for (48 minutes). video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-iba-syn5&ei=UTF-8&hsimp=yhs-syn5&hspart=iba¶m1=RypDRDjp20T5Vc76fVk9yA%3D%3D¶m2=9dUI1n2R0BLDxNuWfiP4aSFOTltNdSPoIx38%2BUf%2FiXrvPdoGmStdlfwLFZYDvqkAJrWWk4yNReCLnBD%2FqPsDZd7olTZcV8HMx1G%2Fk786sE2Tis1g8dJd8zxVWs%2BbKztBnq1TfqUiqPYK9pXifXmJF2dHBPfe0sKRIUa4ojnUD9e1hcPee%2B53bwIx1lfVtu1%2FEm9JI3biZIc6O%2Bw4mkJMarq6gUSdu7S6hkZCYHy6d82TusLQrGCg479j3qVQEbBN0irqDLP5rckQ0U7LgYrhpt6bfMWYUqWWoYnNgQ4iO3YoHrwbSjURFoUrIfJa4Tj9EpRe2WzddGE7dJ7iB9c2RQ%3D%3D¶m3=NwVEMR%2FzKcG52XsVBYEh2zk2Yklq85vdfspZPoqz2M3nE1gF%2BfLTQ1DrESzPpcXmc9QaEdrC%2F90AeIoC3895y3opvv6gDyNv%2F0Z9nt5eaVEd%2BVcgRI2eJ3uPBoF9MEeEbnXNNmtBiTwbLwe4VzMwoi44zjO1oi7UuCqnoqTSPP3qmKmqiNQKz%2BMcFvXFPL71ZLrROGfvS7GFmnP9bw7iARb6wWMn8MJAi%2BiDbm4Rzvw%3D¶m4=kKGHxHqRIxoCYIULJg%2FiGGhjQCcteS5WrT3JsaMGeko%3D&p=yin+yand+ted+ed+synchronization+video&type=syin_8955_CHW_US_tid301052151807#id=3&vid=19285af6d11c21330af9b75e05e4e451&action=view
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Post by inavalan on Apr 6, 2021 23:39:45 GMT -5
So how would that account for the "negative hallucination" used to create anesthesia? Through suggestion alone, surgery can be performed on a patient. The "body" doesn't react to pain by itself, without the unconscious mind's participation. [...] This is going off topic a bit, but I think that works (in some patients, for some surgeries) because pain from a r azor sharp incision in some body areas is actually not that intense. If you've ever had an accident with a razor blade you might know this from experience. Anesthesia is used not because the pain in so intense, but because people can panic, twitch, move, tense muscles, etc. - all of which is bad for the surgery. The sight of blood also causes instinctive reactions in heart rate and blood pressure. So, I think, hypnosis is being used to quell psychological reaction to moderate pain. If you want to test yourself you can go to South America and try one of the rites of passage where they stick their hands in with the bullet ants. I saw a funny video of a non-native guy trying it and just screaming for an hour before being carted off to a doctor. With that kind of reply you wasted your time, and wasted mine too ...
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