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Post by satchitananda on May 17, 2019 23:35:02 GMT -5
Oh. Hedging your bets are you? Nah. Humor by way of polysemy is completely unambiguous -- although perhaps not entirely non-opaque. As long as we don't go from polysemy and stray into autohyperonymy and metonymy territory we'll be fine.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on May 17, 2019 23:54:21 GMT -5
Ah, so this is the awakening/embodiment type deal that we were talking about with regards to Adya in that other thread, right? That is, in your terminology, SR is defined as an insight that may not be fully lived. For Ramana (and me), SR is the clarity that it is not an insight that can be more or less lived. It is simply flat fact. Anything less than that is not really knowledge. Awakening experiences would be considered glimpses, but not knowledge. Though once a glimpse is had, there’s going to be unstoppable motion towards the destination. Just a matter of time. Now regardless, even Ramana would say that the mind could be said to become quieter post-SR (and this is an increase in peace as conventionally understood), but he would dispute that this affected the SR peep’s experience, since such a “peep” is not identified with the mind. I’m interested . In your experience, what “beyond” SR did it take? As far as "embodiment" is involved, that's partly another terminology issue, and I actually understand and support some of your objections to Adya's pointing in that regard. But no, I'm not referring to the distinction between what I call awakening and what I call self-realization, but rather, what happens after self-realization. My take on self-realization is that it's the realization of an absence that can be described as the absence of separation, or the absence of limitation. It's the end of the line for seeing the false as false .. not because the false is ever seen as somehow true after SR, but rather, there is no more falsity that can deceive, afterward. It's the end of any concept of reality, and, by necessary compliment, the end of any concept of identity - subconscious, or, otherwise. But, this is instantaneous and acausal, and what is realized, is a commonality between all living beings. It's the fourth entry in the truth table that Rumsfeld left out: the unknown known. As such, it can happen for anyone, at any time, at any place. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior, nor is it possible to ever exclude anyone from the possibility of it. As such, the precise same conditioning that was extant in the instant preceding SR is the precise same conditioning extant in the instant afterward, as are the outward conditions in which the event happens. It's not really possible to discuss vasana's independent of that conditioning and those conditions. For me, there was a period of intense existential questioning that followed what I would refer to as the realization of the witness. The realization that I wasn't what I considered myself to be. The realization that the subtle, ever-pervasive sense of being was a ground of joy that the falseness had obscured. Thanks for the story! This seems to be the crux of it. Is this realization different from what you're calling SR? And if it is SR, then, what about it is not permanent inner peace? When you say "permanent inner peace," are you referring to mental conditioning -- like, permanent inner peace would be a total lack of negative emotions? Or what?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 0:18:14 GMT -5
I have yet to hear Ramana say in his dialogs:"I know I am Self, but I can't know you are."
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Post by satchitananda on May 18, 2019 1:53:45 GMT -5
As far as "embodiment" is involved, that's partly another terminology issue, and I actually understand and support some of your objections to Adya's pointing in that regard. But no, I'm not referring to the distinction between what I call awakening and what I call self-realization, but rather, what happens after self-realization. My take on self-realization is that it's the realization of an absence that can be described as the absence of separation, or the absence of limitation. It's the end of the line for seeing the false as false .. not because the false is ever seen as somehow true after SR, but rather, there is no more falsity that can deceive, afterward. It's the end of any concept of reality, and, by necessary compliment, the end of any concept of identity - subconscious, or, otherwise. But, this is instantaneous and acausal, and what is realized, is a commonality between all living beings. It's the fourth entry in the truth table that Rumsfeld left out: the unknown known. As such, it can happen for anyone, at any time, at any place. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior, nor is it possible to ever exclude anyone from the possibility of it. As such, the precise same conditioning that was extant in the instant preceding SR is the precise same conditioning extant in the instant afterward, as are the outward conditions in which the event happens. It's not really possible to discuss vasana's independent of that conditioning and those conditions. For me, there was a period of intense existential questioning that followed what I would refer to as the realization of the witness. The realization that I wasn't what I considered myself to be. The realization that the subtle, ever-pervasive sense of being was a ground of joy that the falseness had obscured. Thanks for the story! This seems to be the crux of it. Is this realization different from what you're calling SR? And if it is SR, then, what about it is not permanent inner peace? When you say "permanent inner peace," are you referring to mental conditioning -- like, permanent inner peace would be a total lack of negative emotions? Or what? Maharaj: The attitude is the fact. Take anger. I may be furious, pacing the room up and down; at the same time I know what I am, a centre of wisdom and love, an atom of pure existence. All subsides and the mind merges into silence. Q: Still, you are angry sometimes. M: With whom am l to be angry and for what? Anger came and dissolved on my remembering myself. It is all a play of gunas (qualities of cosmic matter). When I identify myself with them, I am their slave. When I stand apart, I am their master. From I Am That Nisargadatta Maharaj The idea that the Self realized become emotionless robots seems to endure. But it is not surprising because most discussions are imaginings of what SR must be like. It's understandable that what appears to be negative should disappear after such a special event.
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Post by andrew on May 18, 2019 2:22:43 GMT -5
Ah, so this is the awakening/embodiment type deal that we were talking about with regards to Adya in that other thread, right? That is, in your terminology, SR is defined as an insight that may not be fully lived. For Ramana (and me), SR is the clarity that it is not an insight that can be more or less lived. It is simply flat fact. Anything less than that is not really knowledge. Awakening experiences would be considered glimpses, but not knowledge. Though once a glimpse is had, there’s going to be unstoppable motion towards the destination. Just a matter of time. Now regardless, even Ramana would say that the mind could be said to become quieter post-SR (and this is an increase in peace as conventionally understood), but he would dispute that this affected the SR peep’s experience, since such a “peep” is not identified with the mind. I’m interested . In your experience, what “beyond” SR did it take? As far as "embodiment" is involved, that's partly another terminology issue, and I actually understand and support some of your objections to Adya's pointing in that regard. But no, I'm not referring to the distinction between what I call awakening and what I call self-realization, but rather, what happens after self-realization. My take on self-realization is that it's the realization of an absence that can be described as the absence of separation, or the absence of limitation. It's the end of the line for seeing the false as false .. not because the false is ever seen as somehow true after SR, but rather, there is no more falsity that can deceive, afterward. It's the end of any concept of reality, and, by necessary compliment, the end of any concept of identity - subconscious, or, otherwise. But, this is instantaneous and acausal, and what is realized, is a commonality between all living beings. It's the fourth entry in the truth table that Rumsfeld left out: the unknown known. As such, it can happen for anyone, at any time, at any place. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior, nor is it possible to ever exclude anyone from the possibility of it. As such, the precise same conditioning that was extant in the instant preceding SR is the precise same conditioning extant in the instant afterward, as are the outward conditions in which the event happens. It's not really possible to discuss vasana's independent of that conditioning and those conditions. For me, there was a period of intense existential questioning that followed what I would refer to as the realization of the witness. The realization that I wasn't what I considered myself to be. The realization that the subtle, ever-pervasive sense of being was a ground of joy that the falseness had obscured. Even after this period of questioning ended, it took reading Niz and corresponding on this forum for months before I even realized the questioning was over. To this day, emotions come and go, and the process of becoming conscious of these has no potential end to it. In this I can perceive all sorts of sub-optimal conditioning, and as it's perceived, the stories of it and the ultimate emptiness of it all is quite clear, but what I'm referring to is about as opposite to nihilism as can possibly be. -- and nor am I describing a process of spiritual bypassing. SR is most definitely a binary affair. But the play of life, it all it's glorious duality, is one of enumerable color. I don't have a problem with any of what you said though the bolded is questionable I feel. If that instant seeing the truth irrevocably changed the direction in which you moved afterwards i.e it lead to questioning and reading Niz etc, then something significant changed for you in that instant. That 'change' can only be conditioning.
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Post by lolly on May 18, 2019 3:22:18 GMT -5
That he occasionally experienced conditioned reactions to what appeared to him after he had realized his true being. I cannot believe that your understanding is so superficial that you cannot determine the meaning behind what I paraphrased and the meaning behind what he quoted is the same. A paraphrase should resemble the original phrase... not be an entirely different statement.
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Post by laughter on May 18, 2019 4:09:26 GMT -5
As far as "embodiment" is involved, that's partly another terminology issue, and I actually understand and support some of your objections to Adya's pointing in that regard. But no, I'm not referring to the distinction between what I call awakening and what I call self-realization, but rather, what happens after self-realization. My take on self-realization is that it's the realization of an absence that can be described as the absence of separation, or the absence of limitation. It's the end of the line for seeing the false as false .. not because the false is ever seen as somehow true after SR, but rather, there is no more falsity that can deceive, afterward. It's the end of any concept of reality, and, by necessary compliment, the end of any concept of identity - subconscious, or, otherwise. But, this is instantaneous and acausal, and what is realized, is a commonality between all living beings. It's the fourth entry in the truth table that Rumsfeld left out: the unknown known. As such, it can happen for anyone, at any time, at any place. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior, nor is it possible to ever exclude anyone from the possibility of it. As such, the precise same conditioning that was extant in the instant preceding SR is the precise same conditioning extant in the instant afterward, as are the outward conditions in which the event happens. It's not really possible to discuss vasana's independent of that conditioning and those conditions. For me, there was a period of intense existential questioning that followed what I would refer to as the realization of the witness. The realization that I wasn't what I considered myself to be. The realization that the subtle, ever-pervasive sense of being was a ground of joy that the falseness had obscured. Thanks for the story! This seems to be the crux of it. Is this realization different from what you're calling SR? And if it is SR, then, what about it is not permanent inner peace? When you say "permanent inner peace," are you referring to mental conditioning -- like, permanent inner peace would be a total lack of negative emotions? Or what? I'd have to say that it wasn't, because there was definitely still questioning going on. But it was, by far, the most significant existential realization I've encountered. If I were to pinpoint the moment seeking ended, it was in the middle of a private, online existential debate when I suddenly realized, mid-sentence, that I was still trying to make some sort of sense out of what had happened to me in the months prior, despite having come to understand that, essentially, nothing happened! (or ever did, or ever will...) , and that understanding was beyond intellect, and ineffability was certainly the case. I was all like "hey .. wait-a-minute .. I'm completely full of sh1t!! ". Permanent inner peace to me means an absence of any existential struggle with the present. Negative emotions still might happen, but the ultimate driver isn't a fear of death, nor regret of the past, nor apprehension as to the future in terms of any sort of meaningful legacy or achievement, nor jealousy or any kind of abstract "group anger", or any other illusion founded on the primary illusion of personal doership. But I'd sure be bummed out if my house burned down, or I had to declare bankruptcy, or any one of a number of possible bad things happened. And sometimes my wife can get me in a really bad mood. I'm no SuperPeep TM, I'm just a regular dude. And I think all political people are patently ridiculous, so sometimes they annoy me, but mostly I just find them amusing. That alone, of course, means that I'm not enlightened.
But seriously, I'm still open to the possibility of a complete and permanent end to any and all negative emotion, but it's not something that I claim. I could expound on why I don't think it's a real thing, and that might seem to contradict my claim of openness, but it just doesn't seem to me at this point that there's really anything important going on there.
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Post by laughter on May 18, 2019 4:15:58 GMT -5
As far as "embodiment" is involved, that's partly another terminology issue, and I actually understand and support some of your objections to Adya's pointing in that regard. But no, I'm not referring to the distinction between what I call awakening and what I call self-realization, but rather, what happens after self-realization. My take on self-realization is that it's the realization of an absence that can be described as the absence of separation, or the absence of limitation. It's the end of the line for seeing the false as false .. not because the false is ever seen as somehow true after SR, but rather, there is no more falsity that can deceive, afterward. It's the end of any concept of reality, and, by necessary compliment, the end of any concept of identity - subconscious, or, otherwise. But, this is instantaneous and acausal, and what is realized, is a commonality between all living beings. It's the fourth entry in the truth table that Rumsfeld left out: the unknown known. As such, it can happen for anyone, at any time, at any place. It's not a reward for hard work or good behavior, nor is it possible to ever exclude anyone from the possibility of it. As such, the precise same conditioning that was extant in the instant preceding SR is the precise same conditioning extant in the instant afterward, as are the outward conditions in which the event happens. It's not really possible to discuss vasana's independent of that conditioning and those conditions. For me, there was a period of intense existential questioning that followed what I would refer to as the realization of the witness. The realization that I wasn't what I considered myself to be. The realization that the subtle, ever-pervasive sense of being was a ground of joy that the falseness had obscured. Even after this period of questioning ended, it took reading Niz and corresponding on this forum for months before I even realized the questioning was over. To this day, emotions come and go, and the process of becoming conscious of these has no potential end to it. In this I can perceive all sorts of sub-optimal conditioning, and as it's perceived, the stories of it and the ultimate emptiness of it all is quite clear, but what I'm referring to is about as opposite to nihilism as can possibly be. -- and nor am I describing a process of spiritual bypassing. SR is most definitely a binary affair. But the play of life, it all it's glorious duality, is one of enumerable color. I don't have a problem with any of what you said though the bolded is questionable I feel. If that instant seeing the truth irrevocably changed the direction in which you moved afterwards i.e it lead to questioning and reading Niz etc, then something significant changed for you in that instant. That 'change' can only be conditioning. The false sense of identity is like a filter that veils the senses and shapes all the ongoing conditioning that happens -- which is constantly happening for as long as we're alive, SR or otherwise. So that process of constant re-conditioning happens differently after realization than it did before. But no, self-realization can't be described in terms of a change in the conditioning. It's rather, the advent of an absence of what distorts the process. This sounds like I'm describing a change in conditioning, and there's nothing I can do to describe it differently to change the way it sounds. But you'll never get me to agree with the idea that SR is a change in conditioning.
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Post by satchitananda on May 18, 2019 4:31:17 GMT -5
I cannot believe that your understanding is so superficial that you cannot determine the meaning behind what I paraphrased and the meaning behind what he quoted is the same. A paraphrase should resemble the original phrase... not be an entirely different statement. Yes, that's a valid comment.
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Post by andrew on May 18, 2019 4:43:32 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with any of what you said though the bolded is questionable I feel. If that instant seeing the truth irrevocably changed the direction in which you moved afterwards i.e it lead to questioning and reading Niz etc, then something significant changed for you in that instant. That 'change' can only be conditioning. The false sense of identity is like a filter that veils the senses and shapes all the ongoing conditioning that happens -- which is constantly happening for as long as we're alive, SR or otherwise. So that process of constant re-conditioning happens differently after realization than it did before. But no, self-realization can't be described in terms of a change in the conditioning. It's rather, the advent of an absence of what distorts the process. This sounds like I'm describing a change in conditioning, and there's nothing I can do to describe it differently to change the way it sounds. But you'll never get me to agree with the idea that SR is a change in conditioning. Could you agree that SR triggers a change in conditioning?
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Post by siftingtothetruth on May 18, 2019 8:18:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the story! This seems to be the crux of it. Is this realization different from what you're calling SR? And if it is SR, then, what about it is not permanent inner peace? When you say "permanent inner peace," are you referring to mental conditioning -- like, permanent inner peace would be a total lack of negative emotions? Or what? Maharaj: The attitude is the fact. Take anger. I may be furious, pacing the room up and down; at the same time I know what I am, a centre of wisdom and love, an atom of pure existence. All subsides and the mind merges into silence. Q: Still, you are angry sometimes. M: With whom am l to be angry and for what? Anger came and dissolved on my remembering myself. It is all a play of gunas (qualities of cosmic matter). When I identify myself with them, I am their slave. When I stand apart, I am their master. From I Am That Nisargadatta Maharaj The idea that the Self realized become emotionless robots seems to endure. But it is not surprising because most discussions are imaginings of what SR must be like. It's understandable that what appears to be negative should disappear after such a special event. Right, and I don't think that’s what Laughter thinks. But he does have some other kind of idea of SR that doesn't quite match up to my understanding, so I'm just trying to figure out the details of that.
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Post by siftingtothetruth on May 18, 2019 8:32:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the story! This seems to be the crux of it. Is this realization different from what you're calling SR? And if it is SR, then, what about it is not permanent inner peace? When you say "permanent inner peace," are you referring to mental conditioning -- like, permanent inner peace would be a total lack of negative emotions? Or what? I'd have to say that it wasn't, because there was definitely still questioning going on. But it was, by far, the most significant existential realization I've encountered. If I were to pinpoint the moment seeking ended, it was in the middle of a private, online existential debate when I suddenly realized, mid-sentence, that I was still trying to make some sort of sense out of what had happened to me in the months prior, despite having come to understand that, essentially, nothing happened! (or ever did, or ever will...) , and that understanding was beyond intellect, and ineffability was certainly the case. I was all like "hey .. wait-a-minute .. I'm completely full of sh1t!! ". So why are we not calling this moment SR and anything previous just a glimpse? Isn't this the moment you mark when identification with the personal doer ceases definitively, the moment of "crossed that critical threshold" clarity? Interesting. I'd put it a little differently... I'd say there are no ultimate drivers and there never were. Indeed the very concept of ultimate drivers is ultimately false. Even what seems to be existential struggle is nothing other than the movement of bliss. How does that accord with what you're saying? Is it different? The lack of specific kinds of motivations generally does accord what happens after, but it is not absolutely critical to it, because motivations cannot ultimately be traced or stated. What matters for my conception is that the Background has been noticed in a way that now it is clear that it can never be unnoticed, and that the very idea that it could ever have been unnoticed seems impossible to understand. Agreed. I do think the mind becomes progressively quieter "post"-SR, and this is a mode of increasing conventional bliss... but that process goes on and on...
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Post by zendancer on May 18, 2019 9:59:01 GMT -5
Sifting: What was the sequence of events in your case that led to freedom, and how would you describe what happened? Were there multiple realizations along the way, or was there just one huge insight? Would you say that you were driven more by curiosity or suffering? Was there a point in time when you apprehended the Infinite, or did that coincide with SR? Would you describe life post SR as one of effortless flow (sahaja samadhi)?
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Post by Reefs on May 18, 2019 10:08:27 GMT -5
Stop right there! There is no sifting. There is no context shift. There is no budging. Sifting, context shift and budging are merely concepts appearing in space-like, ever present awareness! Don’t settle for mere concepts. Don’t buy into the ignorance of the mind! There is nobody posting. Nobody budges, nobody posts. Nobody's here. Nobody! Nothing! No-one! Ask yourself the question, "Who posts?" There is only clear, space-like seeing with no person doing anything! There is no duality! There is only non-duality! Duality is an illusion! Only non-duality is real! Well....this points out clearly I live in another universe. That was the advaita trap (split mind). Which means basically same universe as your universe but very different mental position (one that doesn't match what is actually experienced).
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Post by siftingtothetruth on May 18, 2019 11:07:35 GMT -5
Sifting: What was the sequence of events in your case that led to freedom, and how would you describe what happened? Were there multiple realizations along the way, or was there just one huge insight? Would you say that you were driven more by curiosity or suffering? Was there a point in time when you apprehended the Infinite, or did that coincide with SR? Would you describe life post SR as one of effortless flow (sahaja samadhi)? To make a long story short, it started with existential depression in my teens. Learned about Vedanta then through my guru at the time, and a kind of basic understanding of the search. About 20 years of psychological struggle to figure out why my mind wasn't able to focus on the search properly, and yes, progressively clearer and clearer understandings of the search along the way. For example, I encountered Ramana Maharshi about 15 years ago, and knew he was profound, but then when I came back 10 years later, had a much deeper understanding. Driven by both curiosity and suffering -- perhaps curiosity at suffering would be the best way to describe it. One could say that there were many realizations of psychological value along the way, and it was also notable the first time practicing Maharshi's method of self-inquiry and getting deliberately to a stage of what I call the spacious mind -- perhaps that's what you call apprehending the Infinite, I'm not sure. It's really simply the Truth, but it was a temporary experience. Revisiting that state over and over was part of a one-year-long end-phase which led to an alternation of self-inquiry and surrender and finally a point when, frustrated by the constant seeming "falling away" from the spacious mind no matter what I did, the empty character of mind suddenly became clear and the bottom was touched. That's what I'd call "The Realization." I'd describe life post-SR as -- indescribable. As in: like nothing at all, like being absent.
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