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Post by zendancer on Jan 7, 2010 9:00:16 GMT -5
Yumcha: In truth, there is no ego. If anger arises, it arises, but there is no one for whom it arises. The whole process is profoundly empty. If we are not thinking, then there is no hot or cold, no anger or placidity, no good or bad. There is just THIS. THIS can be experienced, but there is no one who has the experience. Klaus is saying the same thing in a different way. Flower buds opening, blood flowing, fingers typing on a keyboard, eyes seeing words on a screen, but no one is seeing these things or doing any of this.
Many people talk about "wearing down the ego," or "getting rid of the ego," but no such thing exists. Besides, who would wear it down or get rid of it? The whole idea is an illusion. If we quit imagining, all of these ideas disappear.
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 7, 2010 13:08:15 GMT -5
Hey yumcha, As has already been said by the posts before mine (eloquently if I might say so), ego is just putting stock in an idea of separation. To see clearly is to recognize that there never was any separation, and the act of putting stock in it then fades.... It's like seeing a person on the street from the back and thinking it's your friend (we'll call your friend "Frank"). It REALLY does look like Frank from the back, but if you examine closely enough you realize that it never was Frank. So you could ask "when it's realized who the person that looks like Frank from the back actually is, what happens to Frank?" The answer to that question is the same answer to what happens to the ego upon direct realization. We all agree that to see through the illusion leads to freedom. However, there is one small remaining question. There is talk of enlightenment from the neck down, embracing the understanding that living life through direct sensory perception is mostly reactionary in nature. Living in the moment, fully embracing the being ness of all that is. This brings up the question of ego. Where does it fit in? One would hope that it would just cooperate and go with the flow, however we know that it rarely if ever does. So, at what point is the ego written off? Can it be just written off, passed over or ignored? What happens when we are faced with diversity, such as being cut off in traffic, pushed aside at a white sale, or experience the sublime moment of fight or flight? |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 7, 2010 13:47:33 GMT -5
LM: Good analogy!
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Post by shiokara on Jan 8, 2010 14:35:24 GMT -5
It seems like this view of non existence is extreme departure from a middle path, that many Zen masters and Indian Gurus talk about. It seems that Nagarjuna explained that it was very easy to get side tracked in the belief of non existence and that this was only one of the many traps ego to make one believe that they do not exist until one physically stumps one's toe.
This belief of the middle path has a long lineage thru eons of discussions of most major eastern religions. How many stories of Zen tell of logically looking at what is perceived is only personal perception and then showing true consequences of that perception. Without chaos there is no opposite of non existence, then to deny chaos and only cling to non existence is only living in part of reality. The middle path recognizes both side of the two truths and not only one of non existence. It is the master that takes the student thru life and shows life as it truly is, then returns to the middle, to live. Eat, walk, work.
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Post by zendancer on Jan 8, 2010 15:54:14 GMT -5
Shiokara: I think you have misunderstood the discussion on this thread. The words are pointing to something beyond existence or non-existence. You wrote, "This belief of the middle path has a long lineage....." What we are discussing here has nothing to do with beliefs of any kind. It is a living experience that translates to "chopping wood and carrying water." We use words only to point to what is beyond words.
I suspect that everyone here would like to hear about your own personal experiences on this path. How did you get interested in non-duality, and what is your current understanding?
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Post by N8rimel on Jan 8, 2010 16:13:35 GMT -5
How can we hope to fully realize the Truth, without first facing all that is in front of us in our everyday lives? We want to jump over the material world without ever mastering it, and get right into Enlightenment. The first most logical step is to learn to systematically think through the problems that we face in our everyday lives. By learning to think through each problem to its root, we are then able to expose the elusive nature of our “small self”. This thinking process teaches us to focus on a single problem at hand, which will serve us in our ongoing search for Truth. Focus as well as persistence, are much needed tools with which to arm ourselves in our inquiries into Truth. By first finding our way through the entanglements of our everyday material existence, we not only expose the inner workings of our social interactions, but also expose the ego and its unhealthy campaign to keep us distracted. Once we are able to achieve some mastery over the delusion of our material existence, we then move naturally forward with a calm quiet mind, into deeper inquiries. Pealing back the layers of delusion naturally activates our internal guidance system. At some point, we have no other choice but to step out on our own, without the familiar comforts and trappings that keep us focused, and face the Truth with both eyes wide open, and feet planted firmly on the earth. Truth is not found within the dogmatic, man made systems. These systems, may they be religious or philosophic only serve us for so long before they begin to hinder us. We must strip away everything that no longer serves us on the path to Truth. It is good to re strengthen our ardor with an occasional refresher, however at a certain point to continue to reinforce with past idols is counter productive. I submit this simply as my own understanding and path, with the hope that it may serve someone else in their search. As most of you know, just getting started in the right direction is the hardest part of the search. |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 11, 2010 12:54:41 GMT -5
Hey shiokara, I know what you mean, and that always confused me, because it sounded like no fun. I mean, why would we want to return to mundanity if we've seen the infinite? What happened to me, however, is that the worlds collided. There is no such thing as mundanity because there is no separate infinite. But the process, at least for me (and many others that I've talked to), is one of first recognizing that separation is not real (because it isn't and never was) and then infiniteness comes to the forefront. From that perspective, where the individual goes away, the relative can seem very unreal indeed. For me, at that time, life seemed to be as real as the spot that shows up when we blink after a camera flash has blinded us. It was definitely there, but very very insubstantial. And the relative can really seem like an illusion when the Absolute overwhelms us. But it's actually through paying attention to that Absolute, which is realized to be all there is and has ever been, that the relative's infinite and eternal structure starts to become clear. There IS no going back, but in going forward more is discovered than could possibly be imagined....and the activity of the world is in no way separate from that.... It just isn't what we thought it was....  It seems like this view of non existence is extreme departure from a middle path, that many Zen masters and Indian Gurus talk about. It seems that Nagarjuna explained that it was very easy to get side tracked in the belief of non existence and that this was only one of the many traps ego to make one believe that they do not exist until one physically stumps one's toe. This belief of the middle path has a long lineage thru eons of discussions of most major eastern religions. How many stories of Zen tell of logically looking at what is perceived is only personal perception and then showing true consequences of that perception. Without chaos there is no opposite of non existence, then to deny chaos and only cling to non existence is only living in part of reality. The middle path recognizes both side of the two truths and not only one of non existence. It is the master that takes the student thru life and shows life as it truly is, then returns to the middle, to live. Eat, walk, work. |
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Post by jimmytantric on Jan 15, 2010 5:44:30 GMT -5
There is no material world.Without the space around obects(which includes you) there is nothing. Read Shankaras "Crest jewel of discrimination", this will give you the insight/clarity to bypass divisive mind(thoughts). Good luck!
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 15, 2010 11:30:24 GMT -5
Yeah, except it's not nothing either. Nothing implies a something, and so implies duality. This is non-dual. It's all inclusive. It's not one thing as opposed to another, and it's all uniform all completely infinitely the same.....and that thing is not nothing nor is it something. But, rather, it's one thing that includes both, contains both, but is in no way limited to both. In other words, to put it multiple choice test style. Is the world: a. Something b. Nothing c. Both something and nothing d. neither something nor nothing f. some combination of something and nothing e. none of the above the answer is e. There is no material world.Without the space around obects(which includes you) there is nothing. Read Shankaras "Crest jewel of discrimination", this will give you the insight/clarity to bypass divisive mind(thoughts). Good luck! |
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Post by jimmytantric on Jan 18, 2010 2:20:09 GMT -5
yUMCHA I say this as a fellow traveler.Firstly truth cannot be realized from a relative standpoint called you or me. 2nd-material is not separate from non-material. 3rd-You can't think anything-you can only use thought to realize there is no thought. Next we don't need to arm ourselves (We are IT). You cannot master delusion-it serves a purpose-it's called Maya in the Hindu philosophy. Next there are no systems or levels or progressions-you are IT! Next we cannot strip anything because the the idea to strip away cantatas a you stripping which there isn't. Lastly hope suggests theres someone to help which there isn't and there is no direction simply because any direction would bring an opposite direction, which is duality and relativity, which truly does noes exist in Absolute Reality. I suggest Shankaras "Crest jewel of discrimination". This treasure would annihilate any wrong thought processes. Good luck fellow seeker. I leave you with two of Platos finest statements. "I now know that I know nothing" and'' I have found the enemy and the enemy is me".OM
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