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Post by klaus on Dec 29, 2009 19:12:17 GMT -5
zendancer,
Thanks for your reply to my inquiry about the physicality of the body/mind in relationship to the "body's direct knowledge."
Looks like you and I are onthe same page in that regard.
And yes, all enlightened beings have one characteristic in commom and that is their humor and laughter.
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Post by zendancer on Dec 29, 2009 21:56:34 GMT -5
Yumcha: Yes, I agree. There are a sufficient number of good pointers in this single thread. My question was merely a playful koan pointing to that which contains both "here" and "there". Cheers.
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Post by Portto on Dec 30, 2009 9:42:49 GMT -5
Something that always cracks me up is when someone says, "I've never discovered what I'm supposed to be doing in life." I'm always tempted to say in response, "Well, tell me what you did today, starting as soon as you woke up." Whatever they did was exactly what they were supposed to be doing in life! You're relentless, ZD! Thank you! Is the question also a part of what they were supposed to be doing? |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 30, 2009 12:00:23 GMT -5
Porto: Absolutely! Ha ha. Great point! You've given me my biggest laugh of the day so far. You're clearly on your way to sagehood.
That reminds me of the wonderful dialogue between a famous Zen Master and one of his students. I've forgotten the details, but the essence of it went something like this:
Student: Sir, I'm thoroughly frustrated and dissatisfied with my experiences here, and I intend to leave this monastery and go find a good teacher. I've been here for more than a year and you've never been willing to reveal to me the secret of all secrets.
Zen Master (feigning extreme surprise): How can you say such a thing? When you served me food, didn't I eat it? And when you rang the bell for meditation to begin, didn't I take my seat with everyone else?
Upon hearing these words, the student reportedly had a big enlightenment experience.
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Post by yumcha on Jan 1, 2010 15:10:00 GMT -5
I have recently read a quote by Deepak Chopra that states:
“When we can accept all of life’s contradictions, when we can comfortably flow between the banks of pleasure and pain, experiencing both while getting stuck in neither, then we are free”.
The quote obviously refers to a life lived in the freedom of non-duality, within the bounds of our dualistic world.
My question is this; can one truly hope to live a non-dualistic existence, if the concept is only grasped intellectually?
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Post by zendancer on Jan 2, 2010 18:02:06 GMT -5
Yumcha: The short answer to your question is "no." If the concept is only grasped intellectually, then it is still at the level of conceptual thought, and it will not lead to the kind of freedom Deepak is alluding to. The path of non-duality is a path that eventually leads from mind (intellect) dominance to body dominance. This is why Adyashanti reportedly said, "enlightenment comes from the neck down." The difference between head-knowing and body-knowing is the difference between reading about or thinking about riding a bicylce and actually getting on a bicycle and physically riding it. Most adults relate to the world almost exclusively through thoughts, but those who become free relate to the world through direct (embodied) sensory perception. Breaking the habit of reflective thought, by practicing direct sensory perception (which includes most forms of meditation), leads us to the living truth (as opposed to thought-based meta-truths) and freedom from the illusion of selfhood.
You wrote, "The quote obviously refers to a life lived in the freedom of non-duality, within the bounds of our dualistic world." Not exactly. The quote refers to a life lived in the freedom of non-duality, OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF A DUALISTIC WORLD. Someone who is free does not relate to the world dualistically. He/she sees all boundaries as illusory/arbitrary/provisional and lives in a world that can be experienced but not known. He/she does not look at the world as an outside separate observer, but from within as the system itself. We use the word "oneness" to point to that which is beyond even the idea of oneness. Oneness can BE oneness, but it cannot know oneness. The non-dual world is a total mystery.
An intellectual understanding of our existential situation can take us to the doorway of non-duality, but it cannot take us through the doorway. Only the body can do that.
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 5, 2010 12:29:02 GMT -5
Hey yumcha, At best, realizing that there's something called nonduality intellectually is useful in that it gives us a place to start. One can't examine their assumptions without realizing on some level there are assumptions being made in the first place. And you can kind of feel like there are assumptions being made, like something doesn't quite add up, doesn't quite make sense. There's an inner sense of freedom that is so quiet it can be as if almost not there. And then the seeking begins. And through that seeking can come the unwinding of absolutely everything. And then that very quiet inner knowing, so abstract as to be relegated to the realm of desire instead of actual experience, becomes crystal clear, becomes the fabric of life itself. It's not that nonduality can be lived within the confines of duality, but rather that it's recognized, on a deep, physical, visceral, instinctual level that what was thought to be a dualistic world simply never was.  And it can be scary to start to go there, because it looks like means the annihilation of self. And that is a truly frightening idea if a separate self is what we feel like we are.... I have recently read a quote by Deepak Chopra that states: “When we can accept all of life’s contradictions, when we can comfortably flow between the banks of pleasure and pain, experiencing both while getting stuck in neither, then we are free”. The quote obviously refers to a life lived in the freedom of non-duality, within the bounds of our dualistic world. My question is this; can one truly hope to live a non-dualistic existence, if the concept is only grasped intellectually? |
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Post by yumcha on Jan 5, 2010 22:27:41 GMT -5
With the being-ness of non-duality clearly established, what then is the continued purpose of individual dualistic experience?
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Post by klaus on Jan 5, 2010 23:33:05 GMT -5
With the being-ness of non-duality clearly established, what then is the continued purpose of individual dualistic experience? It has no purpose. It exists in utter freedom. |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 6, 2010 9:29:28 GMT -5
With the being-ness of non-duality clearly established, what then is the continued purpose of individual dualistic experience? It has no purpose. It exists in utter freedom. That is correct. It is the play of God. Don't waste time thinking about it; just enjoy it. Dual or non-dual makes no difference if you see through the illusion. Our ordinary everyday life is the way. |
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 6, 2010 12:58:20 GMT -5
Hey yumcha, Good question. For me, that could be accurately answered two ways. In once sense, there never is individual dualistic experience again after that, because what is going on in life is recognized to never have been that in the first place. In other words, the idea that there ever was individual dualistic experience is recognized to be an assumption that was never true. So there is no going back. In another sense, the story continues, but the story is related to totally differently, and so experienced totally differently. From that perspective, the purpose is to have the experience of the dream. From what I've seen the question of why (which I've definitely had very strongly in the past) tends to come from some feeling of lack of meaningfulness, lack of appreciation, or feeling of less than rightness about how it comes together. And the clarity of the meaningfulness seems to come over time as the recognition comes, as does the feeling of rightness. And when the meaning and rightness are there, the appreciation is spontaneous. I have a friend who noticed that, if he really saw clearly what was going on in any given situation, the natural response is gratitude. And I have always found that to be true for me also. So, if there was something I didn't appreciate, it was always because I either wasn't having enough compassion for myself or the other person because I wasn't appreciating how extreme the situation really was and/or I wasn't recognizing the benefits that the situation was providing. The value of the situations, when seen more clearly, were always way more extreme and amazing than I ever could have guessed. And that's still just a tiny inkling of the whole meaning, but there was enough ability to sense the meaning that made me get it. To see the whole thing is probably staggering (although the actual value, I suspect, is infinite, and so there is no end of value that one could potentially uncover). And, from from my experience, simply recognizing that the deep meaning and value is in there makes the situation worth feeling into closely, worth allowing the resistance to it to start to fade so that it can be examined directly and really seen for what it is. And then the meaning can shine through. Ultimately, though, the meaning is a deep knowingness, a feeling of meaning that can translate to a billion trillion different meanings, each deeply meaningful, but not one that is correct to the exclusion of others. Does that make sense? With the being-ness of non-duality clearly established, what then is the continued purpose of individual dualistic experience? |
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Post by klaus on Jan 6, 2010 16:22:24 GMT -5
Graffiti on the side of a dumpster I saw today, it said:
"You've got nothing to lose"
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Post by Portto on Jan 6, 2010 20:25:57 GMT -5
That is correct. It is the play of God. Don't waste time thinking about it; just enjoy it. Dual or non-dual makes no difference if you see through the illusion. Our ordinary everyday life is the way. That's right. Furthermore, the great majority of people actually know that! The main difference is that they feel separate and alone. |
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Post by yumcha on Jan 6, 2010 23:09:51 GMT -5
We all agree that to see through the illusion leads to freedom. However, there is one small remaining question.
There is talk of enlightenment from the neck down, embracing the understanding that living life through direct sensory perception is mostly reactionary in nature. Living in the moment, fully embracing the being ness of all that is.
This brings up the question of ego. Where does it fit in? One would hope that it would just cooperate and go with the flow, however we know that it rarely if ever does.
So, at what point is the ego written off? Can it be just written off, passed over or ignored?
What happens when we are faced with diversity, such as being cut off in traffic, pushed aside at a white sale, or experience the sublime moment of fight or flight?
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Post by klaus on Jan 7, 2010 1:56:04 GMT -5
Ego is THAT also. Don't be fooled by appearences.
Flower buds opening
an explosion of colors
--Hear the rainbow sigh
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