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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 24, 2020 21:21:24 GMT -5
This is a quote from Maurice Nicoll, pertinent to the current discussion on the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread and the Eckhart Tolle video zd found today. (I reread all the quotes and several posts are also very pertinent, [one being the fish in water post], including an exchange with E-nigma, but I picked this one to repost). Continuing the discussion: "What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is-- Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become conscious of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught". ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring. |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 25, 2020 18:02:19 GMT -5
This is a quote from Maurice Nicoll, pertinent to the current discussion on the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread and the Eckhart Tolle video zd found today. (I reread all the quotes and several posts are also very pertinent, [one being the fish in water post], including an exchange with E-nigma, but I picked this one to repost). Continuing the discussion: "What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is-- Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become conscious of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught". ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring. I have no idea what this statement is trying to convey. I have said that what we are is infinite, unified, aware, intellectually incomprehensible, unbounded, and not two. Is that synonymous with "there is just what we are conscious of?" |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 25, 2020 18:22:28 GMT -5
This is a quote from Maurice Nicoll, pertinent to the current discussion on the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread and the Eckhart Tolle video zd found today. (I reread all the quotes and several posts are also very pertinent, [one being the fish in water post], including an exchange with E-nigma, but I picked this one to repost). I have no idea what this statement is trying to convey. I have said that what we are is infinite, unified, aware, intellectually incomprehensible, unbounded, and not two. Is that synonymous with "there is just what we are conscious of?" I just explored this pretty extensively in the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread (responding to zazeniac's question). It's also what Tolle talked about in the video you found, Consciousness. What we are conscious of is not what's significant. Consciousness is what is significant. (The sentences you highlighted didn't copy here). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 26, 2020 7:26:42 GMT -5
This is a quote from Maurice Nicoll, pertinent to the current discussion on the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread and the Eckhart Tolle video zd found today. (I reread all the quotes and several posts are also very pertinent, [one being the fish in water post], including an exchange with E-nigma, but I picked this one to repost). I have no idea what this statement is trying to convey. I have said that what we are is infinite, unified, aware, intellectually incomprehensible, unbounded, and not two. Is that synonymous with "there is just what we are conscious of?" (The sentences you highlighted didn't copy, so, copied here). sdp wrote, over 2 years ago: "ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else. There is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring".Yes, last night I pawned off an answer to this by saying, go to the other thread. Yes, that's still my answer, but briefly. Always in giving ATA-T you say attend to some sensory object, (in order to cease thinking, or, attending and ceasing thinking happen simultaneously). I have never had any problem with that, it is a perfectly good practice. This is being conscious of. But then in sharing the Tolle video you say he is talking about ATA-T. The point I am making is Tolle talks about more than ATA-T. He brings in Consciousness. His discussion of Consciousness is the more. The way you discuss ATA-T, one's attention goes-into the object, say you are attending a waterfall. No problem with that. But Tolle brings in Consciousness (so it's not the same as your description of ATA-T, it's more). This more (Consciousness) is what I've always meant in our discussions over the years. (I know I deliberately handcuff and hobble discussions, as I don't as a general rule talk about experiences or as a firm rule describe practices, but be that as it may. That's my predilection. I give quotes when I can find an appropriate one). Tolle describes it very well. All I'm asking is for you to address this, what Tolle says in the video, concerning Consciousness. On the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread in response to zazeniac I specified by giving the minute some of these Tolle references. If you have no response, that's fine too. But Consciousness is everything. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 26, 2020 8:28:41 GMT -5
I have no idea what this statement is trying to convey. I have said that what we are is infinite, unified, aware, intellectually incomprehensible, unbounded, and not two. Is that synonymous with "there is just what we are conscious of?" (The sentences you highlighted didn't copy, so, copied here). sdp wrote, over 2 years ago: "ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else. There is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring".Yes, last night I pawned off an answer to this by saying, go to the other thread. Yes, that's still my answer, but briefly. Always in giving ATA-T you say attend to some sensory object, (in order to cease thinking, or, attending and ceasing thinking happen simultaneously). I have never had any problem with that, it is a perfectly good practice. This is being conscious of. But then in sharing the Tolle video you say he is talking about ATA-T. The point I am making is Tolle talks about more than ATA-T. He brings in Consciousness. His discussion of Consciousness is the more. The way you discuss ATA-T, one's attention goes-into the object, say you are attending a waterfall. No problem with that. But Tolle brings in Consciousness (so it's not the same as your description of ATA-T, it's more). This more (Consciousness) is what I've always meant in our discussions over the years. (I know I deliberately handcuff and hobble discussions, as I don't as a general rule talk about experiences or as a firm rule describe practices, but be that as it may. That's my predilection. I give quotes when I can find an appropriate one). Tolle describes it very well. All I'm asking is for you to address this, what Tolle says in the video, concerning Consciousness. On the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread in response to zazeniac I specified by giving the minute some of these Tolle references. If you have no response, that's fine too. But Consciousness is everything. perhaps ATA-T is 'usefully and purposefully attending what is less abstract than conceptual thought, and may lead to a realization of the actual''....? |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 26, 2020 14:37:24 GMT -5
(The sentences you highlighted didn't copy, so, copied here). sdp wrote, over 2 years ago: "ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else. There is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring".Yes, last night I pawned off an answer to this by saying, go to the other thread. Yes, that's still my answer, but briefly. Always in giving ATA-T you say attend to some sensory object, (in order to cease thinking, or, attending and ceasing thinking happen simultaneously). I have never had any problem with that, it is a perfectly good practice. This is being conscious of. But then in sharing the Tolle video you say he is talking about ATA-T. The point I am making is Tolle talks about more than ATA-T. He brings in Consciousness. His discussion of Consciousness is the more. The way you discuss ATA-T, one's attention goes-into the object, say you are attending a waterfall. No problem with that. But Tolle brings in Consciousness (so it's not the same as your description of ATA-T, it's more). This more (Consciousness) is what I've always meant in our discussions over the years. (I know I deliberately handcuff and hobble discussions, as I don't as a general rule talk about experiences or as a firm rule describe practices, but be that as it may. That's my predilection. I give quotes when I can find an appropriate one). Tolle describes it very well. All I'm asking is for you to address this, what Tolle says in the video, concerning Consciousness. On the ATA-T and attention otherwise thread in response to zazeniac I specified by giving the minute some of these Tolle references. If you have no response, that's fine too. But Consciousness is everything. perhaps ATA-T is 'usefully and purposefully attending what is less abstract than conceptual thought, and may lead to a realization of the actual''....? Exactly! The whole point is to "get out of one's head" and go beyond mind (Niz defines mind as verbal thoughts). The truth is simple, direct, and clear, but the intellect conjures up abstraction after abstraction. What we ARE is "what is," and "what is" is beyond conception. We can only BE that. Sages live in what is a kind of continuous everyday samadhi. In that stateless state there are no ideas like "I am consciousness" or "I am presence," etc. There is simply whatever is happening, and the sage is psychologically one-with that happening. Humans can either attend thoughts, or they can attend whatever is happening. Whatever is happening is always happening now. Attending what can be seen, heard, or felt without labeling or commentary is simply a way to break the habit of habitual self-centered thinking until sustained silence collapses the illusion of "me" and reveals the overall context of human life--"the Big Picture." After the Big Picture is seen and understood, one can then relax and live an ordinary life free from seeking or being in any way special. |
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Continuing the discussion: 
