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Post by laughter on Mar 26, 2018 17:21:35 GMT -5
Sorry, but one last equation is called for. We must finally factor out the "other person" who may or may not be perceiving and who acts as if there is gravity. Only then will the level of simplicity have finally arrived at a point where there's nothing left to say, and all awareness will be at non-experiential peace, but only if you first meditate or TM-chant your way to an OBE/NDE communion with your deceased love ones and all of your past life selves in a state of completely shattered and gaping wide chakras where you've lost the belief in the Santa Clause of Jesus Christ because you successfully unlearned the information that led to it in the first place. Naked walks in the rain for good measure are always a bonus too, but you might have to stamp someone specifically for that purpose to get them to go along with the idea. I was also wondering how the emptiness/not-knowing dogma applies to psychics/channels, telepathy and clairvoyance. Well, as I imagine that Linji might have pointed out ( ), the same idea expressed in literally the same words by a guest means something very different than when said by a host. Are some hosts better than others at discerning the effect of their words? Are some hosts better at discerning when their words repeated back to them don't mean the same as when they first spoke them?
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Post by enigma on Mar 28, 2018 22:56:18 GMT -5
The focus on simplicity is a good one. I've found myself talking more and more about absence and not knowing and conceptual boundaries in the face of 3-layer cakes and SR/CC combo meals. (Maybe we need forum lunch breaks) I understand the attraction to complexity because that added discrimination is how mind makes sense of things in the world, but really we're better off trying to understand mind's limitations and why it loves complexity. Sorry, but one last equation is called for. We must finally factor out the "other person" who may or may not be perceiving and who acts as if there is gravity. Only then will the level of simplicity have finally arrived at a point where there's nothing left to say, and all awareness will be at non-experiential peace, but only if you first meditate or TM-chant your way to an OBE/NDE communion with your deceased love ones and all of your past life selves in a state of completely shattered and gaping wide chakras where you've lost the belief in the Santa Clause of Jesus Christ because you successfully unlearned the information that led to it in the first place. Naked walks in the rain for good measure are always a bonus too, but you might have to stamp someone specifically for that purpose to get them to go along with the idea. That sounds okay, but I find no mention at all of something to eat.
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Post by laughter on Mar 29, 2018 8:26:04 GMT -5
Sorry, but one last equation is called for. We must finally factor out the "other person" who may or may not be perceiving and who acts as if there is gravity. Only then will the level of simplicity have finally arrived at a point where there's nothing left to say, and all awareness will be at non-experiential peace, but only if you first meditate or TM-chant your way to an OBE/NDE communion with your deceased love ones and all of your past life selves in a state of completely shattered and gaping wide chakras where you've lost the belief in the Santa Clause of Jesus Christ because you successfully unlearned the information that led to it in the first place. Naked walks in the rain for good measure are always a bonus too, but you might have to stamp someone specifically for that purpose to get them to go along with the idea. That sounds okay, but I find no mention at all of something to eat.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 29, 2018 17:15:29 GMT -5
SDP: In the non-dual community people often talk about becoming "more conscious," but this is only a pointer, and it should not be taken literally. We can become conscious OF different things, but we cannot become more conscious than conscious. Even in a CC experience, there is just consciousness of whatever is happening. In the deepest sense nothing ever happens, and there is no movement of any kind, but a particular realization is necessary in order to see this. Quoting: Let us speak today about not being properly conscious. ...One hears that one is not properly conscious and hears it again. ...yet one understands absolutely nothing about it. Why? Because one has not observed and so seen for oneself that one is not properly conscious. Here a curious state exists. One still has the illusion that that one is fully conscious and says and does everything consciously and behaves consciously at every moment and then one hears from the teaching of the Work that one is not conscious. The two things lie in the mind without arousing just what should be aroused in oneself. ...When by critical observation of yourself, instead of this heart-rending continual critical observation of others, you notice that you speak without really being conscious of what you are saying, you begin to practically realize that you are not properly conscious. ...Self-observation is to let a ray of light into all that which we take for granted--namely, the illusion that we are fully conscious and always behave consciously. What an illusion! Can you think of a greater one? ...If you believe in all your states and moods and thoughts and feelings, then you are totally identified with yourself and so are not properly conscious of yourself. (And here is the big "rub" with nonduality, note sdp). To be conscious of a state, to ( really, emphasis sdp) observe it, means you are not that state. This is the secret--the first secret of esotericism. ...The subject of this Work is not the blackboard: it is yourself. You are the subject of the Work. pgs 1004-1005, Psychological Commentaries vol 3 Maurice Nicoll
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Post by enigma on Mar 29, 2018 18:55:52 GMT -5
SDP: In the non-dual community people often talk about becoming "more conscious," but this is only a pointer, and it should not be taken literally. We can become conscious OF different things, but we cannot become more conscious than conscious. Even in a CC experience, there is just consciousness of whatever is happening. In the deepest sense nothing ever happens, and there is no movement of any kind, but a particular realization is necessary in order to see this. Quoting: Let us speak today about not being properly conscious. ...One hears that one is not properly conscious and hears it again. ...yet one understands absolutely nothing about it. Why? Because one has not observed and so seen for oneself that one is not properly conscious. Here a curious state exists. One still has the illusion that that one is fully conscious and says and does everything consciously and behaves consciously at every moment and then one hears from the teaching of the Work that one is not conscious. The two things lie in the mind without arousing just what should be aroused in oneself. ...When by critical observation of yourself, instead of this heart-rending continual critical observation of others, you notice that you speak without really being conscious of what you are saying, you begin to practically realize that you are not properly conscious. ...Self-observation is to let a ray of light into all that which we take for granted--namely, the illusion that we are fully conscious and always behave consciously. What an illusion! Can you think of a greater one? ...If you believe in all your states and moods and thoughts and feelings, then you are totally identified with yourself and so are not properly conscious of yourself. (And here is the big "rub" with nonduality, note sdp). To be conscious of a state, to ( really, emphasis sdp) observe it, means you are not that state. This is the secret--the first secret of esotericism. ...The subject of this Work is not the blackboard: it is yourself. You are the subject of the Work. pgs 1004-1005, Psychological Commentaries vol 3 Maurice Nicoll Agreed. 'becoming conscious' is being used in a different way here than I believe ZD is using it when he says one can't become more conscious. I use it the same way.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Mar 30, 2018 10:48:19 GMT -5
It seems the question might be best approached via the ocean-wave analogy, which most peeps seem to understand, but perhaps only to varying degrees. That's kind of why "Awareness", serves as a bettererer pointer to the inner most depths of the ocean; whereas, using "Consciousness" to point to the movements near/at the surface of the ocean (i.e., of which we can be conscious). The surface itself is merely the story/dream in which interactions, consensus reality, and all that jazz take place. The fact that all analogies and metaphors reach ultimately fail is assumed, but that's where pointers are born and die, depending on the degree of understanding. The question alludes to the surface only, so that's what is being addressed here. In awareness of the human condition, rarely does someone question whether they're lost or not when all is positive. The question of being "lost" typically refers to the negative aspects of life in which most will feel overwhelmed. We're addressing both here though. The concept of "waves" used here refers to when peeps feel great, are happy with the way things are, or things are going fine, so most are quite fine to identify with being the wave. To take a step back from identifying with a wave, the whole surface can be seen for what it is. It can be noticed that there can be no wave without a trough. This is where people often get to feeling "lost" as they are being pulled into the depths of despair and visceral suffering. But clearly, both are on the surface. Most peeps live and assume the "experience in identification with the wave or trough", wanting to be the one over the other. It is interesting though that when the surface comes to a perfect calm clarity, for however long that timelessness lasts (yes, a seemingly paradoxical poetic license is used here to convey), it is "seen" as the mirror/mind that it is, what is happening within what one actually IS. This is what is referred to as "everything is a dream". But once seen, one is awake to the dream and its impermanence. Once realized, it can never be lost except by falling into the dream that is believed to be true. Does this point to an "answer" that satisfies the present curiosity? I can get more personal, though it is likely that that will give rise to more questions, which, in turn, will give rise to answers that sound brown bearish and heartless on their surface. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: Huineng's Mirror is not about mastering the concept or the logic of it on the surface most understand as consensual reality, but "seeing/realizing/living" the profound depths that give rise to that surface. As such, it derails and/or undermines all discursive thought that once gave life to consensual reality. This is what starts to choke the life out of the psychological self. Not to put the cart before the donkey, but once one can learn to "allow" that derailment/undermining/choking to happen, and begin to see clarity come into being, it gets a little "easier". There is a mirror. There is no mirror. There is a mirror. The first mirror does not equate with the third mirror. This cannot be overemphasized. Precisely, and when the waves on the surface of the ocean, and the silent depths of the ocean that give rise to the waves, and the One who sees both the surface and the depths, are all seen as undivided, one can finally relax (or play) in the beingness of "what is." Or, to more accurately modify the purported words of Jesus, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will joyfully and gratefully live in service to the ALL." Gettin' all Paul'ine on us?! I hear ya. It became ever more clear that once the illusions are seen through and through, whatever happens is done as the expression of the ALL. But yeah, it is only when the clarity is there that the joy is expressed in a genuine **smile**, or the present awareness of being whole gives rise to gratitude. Interestingly, at that point, when someone asks, "Why are you smiling?", I might be at a loss for words because the context can seem "out of place", usually due to the participants. On occasion, the attempt to express it in words might arise anyway, though often the convo ends with a shrug and a perplexing (to the other) **smile**.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 31, 2018 13:52:52 GMT -5
Continuing the discussion:
"What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is--Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become conscious of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll
This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught".
ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 31, 2018 14:16:52 GMT -5
Quoting: Let us speak today about not being properly conscious. ...One hears that one is not properly conscious and hears it again. ...yet one understands absolutely nothing about it. Why? Because one has not observed and so seen for oneself that one is not properly conscious. Here a curious state exists. One still has the illusion that that one is fully conscious and says and does everything consciously and behaves consciously at every moment and then one hears from the teaching of the Work that one is not conscious. The two things lie in the mind without arousing just what should be aroused in oneself. ...When by critical observation of yourself, instead of this heart-rending continual critical observation of others, you notice that you speak without really being conscious of what you are saying, you begin to practically realize that you are not properly conscious. ...Self-observation is to let a ray of light into all that which we take for granted--namely, the illusion that we are fully conscious and always behave consciously. What an illusion! Can you think of a greater one? ...If you believe in all your states and moods and thoughts and feelings, then you are totally identified with yourself and so are not properly conscious of yourself. (And here is the big "rub" with nonduality, note sdp). To be conscious of a state, to ( really, emphasis sdp) observe it, means you are not that state. This is the secret--the first secret of esotericism. ...The subject of this Work is not the blackboard: it is yourself. You are the subject of the Work. pgs 1004-1005, Psychological Commentaries vol 3 Maurice Nicoll Agreed. 'becoming conscious' is being used in a different way here than I believe ZD is using it when he says one can't become more conscious. I use it the same way. I'm not so sure. I think he is using conscious in the ordinary sense of the word. For example, I am conscious that I just wrote the word conscious, because I didn't write the word balloon. ....But there is a continuum of consciousness, arbitrarily, we could say consciousness 1-10. Let's use eating. I am in a certain sense conscious while eating, if I hit my mouth with a fork full of food, I am in some sense conscious, call it a 1. But we can be thinking about something else, or talking on the phone or to someone at the table, ATST be eating, and hardly notice fork after fork of food, and then our plate is empty, we didn't even really taste our meal. Nobody here seems to get that consciousness is a continuum. Yes, we all know what operating on autopilot is, that is in a very real sense operating unconsciously, so we could say that operating on autopilot is a -1 or -2 on our continuum. What Nicoll is describing in the quote above is something above "10" on the continuum. ZD says there isn't such a thing, I say there is. It gets tricky because "getting above 10" ~requires~ getting beyond the ordinary sense of self, it's leaving the ordinary sense of self behind. This should be right in ZD's wheelhouse, but he doesn't seem to be getting any sense of what's described.
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Post by zendancer on Mar 31, 2018 14:43:16 GMT -5
Continuing the discussion: "What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is-- Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become consciousness of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught". ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring. No, I'm pointing at something quite different than what's implied here. What we are is infinite and incomprehensibly vast, but after The Infinite has been apprehended and the context of our beingness has been discovered, there is no longer a need to search for anything beyond THIS, especially some imagined super-conscious state. I'm pointing to third mountain, where ordinary everyday life is the way. There's nothing special about it, but the nature of this "nothing special" is commonly misunderstood until there is sufficient understanding. When this body/mind was in search mode, it was intensely fanatical by almost any standard. I even refused to listen to the radio for fifteen years because I didn't want to take my eyes away from what could be seen (via ATA-T) any more than necessary. I pursued mindfulness, mantras, chanting, breath awareness meditations, shikan taza, self inquiry, koan contemplation, staying in the I AM, nirvikalpa samadhi, and much more. That is what THIS does when IT is under the illusion that it's a person trying to discover what's going on. Along the way there were visions, crazy ideas, frightening ideas, OBE's, experiences of non-locality, CC's, and all kinds of other fascinating stuff. Fortunately, there were also realizations, and all of the hundreds of existential questions that once bedeviled me finally got answered. On this pathless path, everyone's mileage will vary, and I can only suggest keeping an open mind about what the term "non-abidance" points to.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 31, 2018 14:53:37 GMT -5
Continuing the discussion: "What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is-- Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become conscious of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught". ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring. No, I'm pointing at something quite different than what's implied here. What we are is infinite and incomprehensibly vast, but after The Infinite has been apprehended and the context of our beingness has been discovered, there is no longer a need to search for anything beyond THIS, especially some imagined super-conscious state. I'm pointing to third mountain, where ordinary everyday life is the way. There's nothing special about it, but the nature of this "nothing special" is commonly misunderstood until there is sufficient understanding. When this body/mind was in search mode, it was intensely fanatical by almost any standard. I even refused to listen to the radio for fifteen years because I didn't want to take my eyes away from what could be seen (via ATA-T) any more than necessary. I pursued mindfulness, mantras, chanting, breath awareness meditations, shikan taza, self inquiry, koan contemplation, staying in the I AM, nirvikalpa samadhi, and much more. That is what THIS does when IT is under the illusion that it's a person trying to discover what's going on. Along the way there were visions, crazy ideas, frightening ideas, OBE's, experiences of non-locality, CC's, and all kinds of other fascinating stuff. Fortunately, there were also realizations, and all of the hundreds of existential questions that once bedeviled me finally got answered. On this pathless path, everyone's mileage will vary, and I can only suggest keeping an open mind about what the term "non-abidance" points to. OK, I can accept that that's your way. All I can say (to others) is that there is vastly more. We are still while alive, tied to the body. So the vast Infinite is related to the body, and has to deal through the body, while there is a body. (I'm sure you'll see the hourglass reply on the other thread).
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Post by etolle on Apr 8, 2018 19:03:55 GMT -5
Continuing the discussion: "What is the most precious, the most mysterious, and the most indefinable possession we have been given? The answer is-- Consciousness. We are given a little of this indescribable and unfathomable mystery. But, as we are, in a state of hypnotic sleep, we do not use this gift, but, as it were, surrender it to every pleasing mood, every passing thought. ...One must learn to control consciousness by placing it. ...Consciousness is like light. What are you going to cast this light on? A man, a woman, are in one sense where they place their consciousness. Where your consciousness is, there you are. Have you ever thought what consciousness is? Well, it is comparable, as just said, to light. You have a small electric torch (flashlight). ...So the idea that one can place one's consciousness is valuable. You may think you know this already. Perhaps, but do you do it? ...One form of self-observation is to notice on what you are placing your consciousness. (IOW) You must become consciousness of your consciousness. This leads to a definite increase of consciousness. ...you must become conscious of where your consciousness is fixed. After a time, this consciousness of consciousness grows. That is, you have a new consciousness of that former consciousness with which you were identified. This means you open up a consciousness on a higher level than the consciousness you formerly believed was full consciousness. All this, and similar work on yourself, leads you gradually to the Third State of Consciousness, Self-Remembering, Self-Awareness, or Self-Consciousness. At this new level of consciousness, you begin to see your life in a new way--that is, to become newly conscious of it. Also at this level, you get, quite beyond question,help--new influences. That is, since you are beginning to awaken from the hypnotic sleep of life you begin to touch the first traces of another consciousness which is not that belonging to hypnotic sleep. The Work teaches that you can get help--but only in the Third State of Consciousness. If you remain fastened to yourself, you cannot get help because it cannot reach you". pgs 1163, 1164 Psychological Commentaries vol 3 M Nicoll This explains about as well as can be put into words the sense of what I've been trying to get at, the difference between our ordinary sense of being conscious, and a kind of stepping back from that, and being conscious of being conscious. But you have to actually try to do it. A quote I left out in the passage: "But in this Work it is necessary to do the truths we are taught". ZD says, no, we are merely conscious, there isn't anything else, there is just what we are conscious of. But there is. But one has to do a little exploring, maybe a lot of exploring. No, I'm pointing at something quite different than what's implied here. What we are is infinite and incomprehensibly vast, but after The Infinite has been apprehended and the context of our beingness has been discovered, there is no longer a need to search for anything beyond THIS, especially some imagined super-conscious state. I'm pointing to third mountain, where ordinary everyday life is the way. There's nothing special about it, but the nature of this "nothing special" is commonly misunderstood until there is sufficient understanding. When this body/mind was in search mode, it was intensely fanatical by almost any standard. I even refused to listen to the radio for fifteen years because I didn't want to take my eyes away from what could be seen (via ATA-T) any more than necessary. I pursued mindfulness, mantras, chanting, breath awareness meditations, shikan taza, self inquiry, koan contemplation, staying in the I AM, nirvikalpa samadhi, and much more. That is what THIS does when IT is under the illusion that it's a person trying to discover what's going on. Along the way there were visions, crazy ideas, frightening ideas, OBE's, experiences of non-locality, CC's, and all kinds of other fascinating stuff. Fortunately, there were also realizations, and all of the hundreds of existential questions that once bedeviled me finally got answered. On this pathless path, everyone's mileage will vary, and I can only suggest keeping an open mind about what the term "non-abidance" points to. not sure what you said,but here is what I heard.lol...staying in the present moment,and surrender the illusion of a separate self is all there is. surrender,letting go ....your experience,poimters,etc,have helped the awareness that I am..
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2018 14:37:31 GMT -5
No, I'm pointing at something quite different than what's implied here. What we are is infinite and incomprehensibly vast, but after The Infinite has been apprehended and the context of our beingness has been discovered, there is no longer a need to search for anything beyond THIS, especially some imagined super-conscious state. I'm pointing to third mountain, where ordinary everyday life is the way. There's nothing special about it, but the nature of this "nothing special" is commonly misunderstood until there is sufficient understanding. When this body/mind was in search mode, it was intensely fanatical by almost any standard. I even refused to listen to the radio for fifteen years because I didn't want to take my eyes away from what could be seen (via ATA-T) any more than necessary. I pursued mindfulness, mantras, chanting, breath awareness meditations, shikan taza, self inquiry, koan contemplation, staying in the I AM, nirvikalpa samadhi, and much more. That is what THIS does when IT is under the illusion that it's a person trying to discover what's going on. Along the way there were visions, crazy ideas, frightening ideas, OBE's, experiences of non-locality, CC's, and all kinds of other fascinating stuff. Fortunately, there were also realizations, and all of the hundreds of existential questions that once bedeviled me finally got answered. On this pathless path, everyone's mileage will vary, and I can only suggest keeping an open mind about what the term "non-abidance" points to. OK, I can accept that that's your way. All I can say (to others) is that there is vastly more. We are still while alive, tied to the body. So the vast Infinite is related to the body, and has to deal through the body, while there is a body. (I'm sure you'll see the hourglass reply on the other thread). We'll agree to disagree, but this post did give me quite a chuckle. If there is something beyond the Infinite, then the Infinite wouldn't be the Infinite. The Infinite includes all that is. There's no separate anything tied to a body because there's no separation at all. The body and the infinite are one just as the ocean and a wave are one. The vast Infinite is not related to a body because to have a relationship there must be two, and there's not. There's only one thingless thing here; if we see THAT, then the search comes to an end.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 9, 2018 15:21:46 GMT -5
OK, I can accept that that's your way. All I can say (to others) is that there is vastly more. We are still while alive, tied to the body. So the vast Infinite is related to the body, and has to deal through the body, while there is a body. (I'm sure you'll see the hourglass reply on the other thread). We'll agree to disagree, but this post did give me quite a chuckle. If there is something beyond the Infinite, then the Infinite wouldn't be the Infinite. The Infinite includes all that is. There's no separate anything tied to a body because there's no separation at all. The body and the infinite are one just as the ocean and a wave are one. The vast Infinite is not related to a body because to have a relationship there must be two, and there's not. There's only one thingless thing here; if we see THAT, then the search comes to an end. There isn't vastly more than the Infinite, there is vastly more that a mind-body can-know-experience of the Infinite, than you suggest. (But it takes some initiative ).
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Post by enigma on Apr 9, 2018 23:09:45 GMT -5
Agreed. 'becoming conscious' is being used in a different way here than I believe ZD is using it when he says one can't become more conscious. I use it the same way. I'm not so sure. I think he is using conscious in the ordinary sense of the word. For example, I am conscious that I just wrote the word conscious, because I didn't write the word balloon. ....But there is a continuum of consciousness, arbitrarily, we could say consciousness 1-10. Let's use eating. I am in a certain sense conscious while eating, if I hit my mouth with a fork full of food, I am in some sense conscious, call it a 1. But we can be thinking about something else, or talking on the phone or to someone at the table, ATST be eating, and hardly notice fork after fork of food, and then our plate is empty, we didn't even really taste our meal. Nobody here seems to get that consciousness is a continuum. Yes, we all know what operating on autopilot is, that is in a very real sense operating unconsciously, so we could say that operating on autopilot is a -1 or -2 on our continuum. What Nicoll is describing in the quote above is something above "10" on the continuum. ZD says there isn't such a thing, I say there is. It gets tricky because "getting above 10" ~requires~ getting beyond the ordinary sense of self, it's leaving the ordinary sense of self behind. This should be right in ZD's wheelhouse, but he doesn't seem to be getting any sense of what's described. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I agree with the idea of becoming more conscious. I've been talking about it for many years.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 10, 2018 21:02:58 GMT -5
I'm not so sure. I think he is using conscious in the ordinary sense of the word. For example, I am conscious that I just wrote the word conscious, because I didn't write the word balloon. ....But there is a continuum of consciousness, arbitrarily, we could say consciousness 1-10. Let's use eating. I am in a certain sense conscious while eating, if I hit my mouth with a fork full of food, I am in some sense conscious, call it a 1. But we can be thinking about something else, or talking on the phone or to someone at the table, ATST be eating, and hardly notice fork after fork of food, and then our plate is empty, we didn't even really taste our meal. Nobody here seems to get that consciousness is a continuum. Yes, we all know what operating on autopilot is, that is in a very real sense operating unconsciously, so we could say that operating on autopilot is a -1 or -2 on our continuum. What Nicoll is describing in the quote above is something above "10" on the continuum. ZD says there isn't such a thing, I say there is. It gets tricky because "getting above 10" ~requires~ getting beyond the ordinary sense of self, it's leaving the ordinary sense of self behind. This should be right in ZD's wheelhouse, but he doesn't seem to be getting any sense of what's described. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I agree with the idea of becoming more conscious. I've been talking about it for many years. OK, thanks, I thought we (e & sdp) were in (pretty much) agreement here. (But ZD has said we cannot be more conscious or less conscious, it's only a matter of what one is conscious OF. That makes zero since to me. ...).
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