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Post by klaus on Dec 14, 2009 16:36:09 GMT -5
A man seeking Nirvana for many years spotted a monk on the corner of State and Lake, in Chicago; the monk smoking a cigarette.
The man approached the monk and said, " I am seeking Nirvana."
The monk took one last drag of his cigarette and flipped it into the street, then turned to the man and pointed west.
"Tibet?", the man asked.
"Tibet, Tibet, Tibet, why do they always think it's Tibet?", thought the monk.
"No not Tibet!, said the monk.
"Meet me in the village of **** ( the name of the village has been deleted to avoid an onrush of seekers) in a far away country.
The man found the monk waiting for him in the village of **** as the monk had promised.
"Ok, let's go", said the monk, stepping on a road leading west.
They walked miles and miles, the silence between them broken by the occasional farts of the monk.
They saw ****, another village a short distance away.
"Wait here", said the monk.
The man waited with anticipation.
"This is it", thought the man, but the monk didn't return.
Finally, the man began walking and stopped at the edge of the village paused, and turned a corner.
With wide eyes and open mouth he found himself staring at a decrepit building with a balcony.
Underneath the balcony was a sign: Welcome to Nirvana.
The man approached the door totally excited, expecting Nirvana on the other side, turned the knob and opened the door.
There he found the monk sitting at a table smoking a cigarette and drinking a cup of coffee.
The monk looked up and grinned, "What'd you expect?" said the monk.
And what did you expect?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 16, 2009 23:21:36 GMT -5
Nice story Klaus. To me, it seems that people of the search do often have a hard time understanding/accepting that there's nothing wrong with living in the world or in the dream; it's being imprisoned there by the strength of their thought patterns of beliefs, attitudes, values, concepts, ideas, etc. that tends to create the disconnect, the seeming reality of that thought world as something separate from the whole, and therefore the endless questions. The strength and mutual acceptance of these thought-based separate realities as being "real" seem to be the foundation of consensual reality (which continues to beg questions). In this story’s instance, the seeker's idea that truth/freedom had to be off in Tibet or somewhere, or that a "spiritual person" does/doesn't do certain things shows fundamentally that s/he is caught in the world of thought, and therefore, the seeking. The seeker ends up in Nirvana seeing the monk sitting there drinking a coffee and smoking a cigarette (and probably questions, “Why...?",,,back out of Nirvana and into the thought world). These kinds of ideas seem to be a strong recurring idea in teachings and conversations, and my nature just seems to see/understand what they’re seeing and where they’re coming from, while also usually seeing that they (their form of ego) could never understand or want to see where I’d have them go. Dying to everything one thinks is important or real is not what people sign up for, nor do they have to. All the various levels of not knowing enough to even look, searching, finding, and the ongoing What Is are just that, just so, What Is. No big deal. Most just want to be comfortably enraptured in the separate thought world they’ve created for themselves and will twist and turn to try to keep that intact, at all cost. However, the fear of freedom in loneliness is too much for an ego that requires the narcissistic encapsulated reality of thought (drama) and the oh-so-important effort required to maintain relationships to “others” that are in agreement and/or that further enhance their sense of a separate self (MORE drama). All good, too. The search for the experience of no self simply seems like a ridiculous adventure, and it is! And I highly recommend it! haha! There’s something peculiarly interesting about feeling into, truly being Aware of, of Being What Is. It’s so simple that no words can describe it. Truly cool. Feeling into, truly being Aware of, and Being What Is is much simpler than all this carrying on! It's fascinating the twists, turns, and wiggling the thought process can accomplish to keep itself so neatly obliviously separate and unaware of its own non-existence. The paradox of all the instances are so,,,so,,,uuum. The problem for the ego is that the experience of no self does absolutely nothing for the ego. Nay, destroys it. Who could ever want that? For me, it was the raw intensity of the search playing out as a deeply felt pure desire to GTF out of the dream that led me over the edge. That last step was a doozy…suspended in Silence, and then there's the whole strange stage of flipping back and forth seeing from "both" sides of the view of reality. The mind cannot know, but YOU can. Interestingly, a person can “see/hear” the truth over and over and over in the dream, and it is only when at some point "the mind, the separate self is ready to die" that Truth can be Realized within. Often, and interestingly, the sound can be just about anything…and then POOF. It may take a while to integrate that POOF, but thereafter, whether one is in the dream or not doesn't really matter because It Is All Oneness, and as deep as one is integrated, one can see/hear as Truth anywhere. The monk sitting there with his coffee, smoking a cigarette in Nirvana, saying "What did you expect?". Why not?  |
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Post by klaus on Dec 17, 2009 16:45:13 GMT -5
Hello someNothing,
What is a mystery is THAT still generates and maintains the illusion of the universe, the "I" within the universe and all within the universe that is IT SELF. In other words continues the play all the while realizing IT is the play and Nothing simultaneously.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 17, 2009 20:51:10 GMT -5
YES! Isn't IT just so,,,so,,,so,,,so,,,so There's no time like the present for just living out the Mystery. It sounds like both of you, Klaus and Souley, are really getting the hang of this stuff! How's the overall integration for the body/minds going (any perspectives you find of interest)? What kinds of "remnants of self" still linger or seem to try to step in? Are you among good characters in the Play, or more or less alone? Etc. Just curious. Hello someNothing, What is a mystery is THAT still generates and maintains the illusion of the universe, the "I" within the universe and all within the universe that is IT SELF. In other words continues the play all the while realizing IT is the play and Nothing simultaneously. |
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Post by klaus on Dec 18, 2009 14:35:29 GMT -5
Hi someNothing,
The most recent insights I've posted on this forum.
As for conditional, consensual day to day reality I find being able to view my conditional, consensual reality for what it is: apparent, having no form or substance in and of itself.
Of course there is still intellectual, emotional, psychological resistance, but as I feel into them and locate the source: the apparent "I" I feel this resistance as bound up energy being released and feeling only perfect peace, love and joy as THAT which is always present in the midst of conditional, consensual reality.
As for being among good characters my time is filled with being the primary caretaker for my parents; both in their mid- eighties who are unable to care for themselves, so basically my status is alone.
I do visit the Adidam Center, and various Zen Centers in Chicago on occasion and have established a few friendships there.
I have never had a "formal" teacher, although Adi Da Samraj has been a major influence in my journey, as well as D. T. Suzuki.
The Diamond Sutra is a great source of inspiration for me also.
Perhaps you will share that "last step" experience someday?
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 20, 2009 7:36:00 GMT -5
Hi Klaus, Thanks for sharing. It sounds in a way like you've actually gone off the edge. Who knows, maybe some of this will ring a bell. Let's see. Perhaps, I can provide a few points of reference and a brief on the little guy up to the "last step" that might suffice as a context of sorts. The last step is the one from the limited finite view of the world that most every person you meet refers to as consensual reality and is constructed/perpetuated by thoughts of Perfectly limited perspective. This is the world a child is taught by ignorance existing in various forms to believe is the only world, the world of duality, and from which only that child may choose to try to wake up, if Perfectly meant to. A separate self’s search for answers is ultimately a search out of this finite worldview, yet because the ego is in charge, it tries to keep a foothold in the former. That’s its job. That’s its finite existence as part of the infinite Existence, Perfectly so. A teaching seems to be what helps that seemingly (to itself) separate self see the ignorance that perpetuates the sense of any boundary/division/duality/etc. To Wake Up, for me, is to take that last step into That which is beyond or just below the deepest recesses within this finite world,,, the Ground/Nothing. As per the Mirdad quote, it’s where everything breaks down, being becoming non-being, non-being coming into being. The experience as such is a bit dizzying for the conditioned separate self to integrate, because of the very stickiness of its tools (thoughts oriented toward finiteness) to think about and describe it. To Integrate is to further Understand/Feel the Relationship between these (seemingly two –i.e., dualistic- worlds) and See Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) as the expression of What Is as One, and Perfectly so. In my expression of this experience, this Understanding/Feeling into requires a return to the very Ground/Nothing, rather than the acquisition of more, per se. Indeed, Understanding/Feeling That which is Infinite and going on As It Is is no longer a search for answers as such, but a trusting journey of endless steps Nowhere into the Unknown. It seems that one actually starts to see probabilistic patterns of these finite relationships, and can even consciously play out certain parts of the dream, but even so, whatever happens is What Is,,,Truth. How/Why/When/What/By Whom All this happens is but a Mystery Existing As IT (stillness/wisdom/nothing) AND Playing with IT (movement/love/everything), and I/YOU ARE THAT. ____________________________________________________ Now, back to the little guy. I went through a lot of freaking out and personal hell, along with the wild and willie interesting "powers" popping up here and there. I never did anything formal either. Indeed, I rejected everything that had much to do with systems, methods, or control, and tended more toward the chaos/esoteric kinds of ideas for whatever reason. I basically just read and read, experimented, trekked, spiralled, freaked, shed layer after layer, rejected, saw, expounded, and shut down and shut up. INTENSE and brow raising at times, but generally, I was an alright and supportive person, for the most part to be around for days or weeks at a time,,,,just nuts and needed to be very alone at times,,,,sometimes longer than others. The journey was all going on inside for the most part anyway, though many could tell by my selection of books and hobbies and topics that I was up to something. Most of what people saw was just the lie I was projecting. Y’know, being the “somebody” I thought I was, while feeling the kind of destruction necessary for my path. Did it have to be that way? I guess so. Why? No idea. Eventually, I went the recluse route and just had to sit down, keep things real simple, and more or less shut up. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with discussing it, BTW.... Whatever is, whatever happens, IS, and obviously needs to happen. Period. Perfectly so. Now, to the topic. The last step was after the words “I don’t know” came across as consciousness. Something at the deepest recesses of my body/mind seemed to just let go and there was something of a flood or was it a slip or a cascade or a whatever (don’t know if something came or went or both---guess it doesn’t matter) and there I was in/as absolute stillness. It seems that happened full stop with just pure being sitting there, then I became aware my body/mind was rushing breathing it all in and breathing it all out, a watching out through eyes at extensions of my body and out the door into the bean field, body suspended in a hammock, all insect sounds, colors, textures, atmosphere acutely in focus of some awareness, everything dancing energy as me, me empty in the presence of something, fulfilling, tears rolling down my face, knowing that presence had always been there, in me, as me, home, here, had always been, just hadn’t known…knowing… search over…BE-LOVE-D… Perfectly so. |
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Post by souley on Dec 20, 2009 10:22:16 GMT -5
My girlfriend, mother, brother and a few friends are very important to me. I pretty much live a normal life, going to work every day, having too much to do, laundry to take care of, etc. Lately it seems that my spiritual search is converging with everyday life. It is really not very special in any way, but it's just.. very nice. I'm pretty happy I guess. As for the separate self, I don't really know. It seems to go back and forth. When I'm working I am very caught up in the role that I play, but I don't mind that, it seems pretty necessary. But on the bus home, or when lying in bed, I can easily slip into just seeing, beeing. If I just lie down and am still for a few minutes, I can watch the body breathing without "me" doing anything. I'm pretty sure that some more final falling apart has yet to happen, but it seems I'm free enough from myself that I can really enjoy life and what it gives me. From being a very intellectual kinda person that had a great need of achieving and getting acknowledged, I'm these days some kind of stupid idiot that has no interest in protecting a personal identity, and generally just seems to give pretty much. I do wish I was a bit more extrovert, but maybe that just means that will probably develop in time  These last six months I have not been reading anything spiritual really, I kind of already got everything that words seem to be able to communicate. Or maybe I just want to think less and be more. My mind is also pretty still it seems, if I make an effort I can probably stop thought for a good 5 mins, if thats anything to measure. But more importantly it feels very relaxed generally. I still have many issues, I get upset or offended sometimes, but it seems less and less, and I'm more forgiving about that then before. From trying to be a perfect, enlightened kind of individual, to just being a free idiot, is a very beautiful development |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 20, 2009 11:02:52 GMT -5
Souley, As one omnipotent idiot to another, I think you're doing a PERFECT job of being whatever you have to be! 5 minutes with no thinking?! What in the hell are you doing with all that time?! Rock on. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 20, 2009 12:17:48 GMT -5
What an interesting thread! I can't think of any prose that's adequate, so I'll have to resort to poetry:
You can’t hide from me now, God,
Because I’ve seen through all of your disguises.
I’ll admit, that you used to fool me,
By lying around on the grass like dew,
Or dropping off the trees like autumn leaves,
Or brushing past me on a crowded sidewalk
Dressed up like an important person.
In the past I often mistook the touch of a brushed sleeve,
For the touch of a brushed sleeve,
Or the chattering of squirrels,
For the chattering of squirrels,
Or trash lying on the side of a road
For trash lying on the side of a road.
Nevertheless, I never stopped trying to find you,
And every so often I’d catch a glimpse of something,
Like the momentary flash of a silver fin
Under the surface of a sunlit stream.
.
I kept looking for you, God,
Because I knew that things couldn’t be the way they seemed to be
And that something big was playing hide and seek with me.
You must have felt sorry for me,
Watching me search in all the wrong places,
So, finally, you rang a telephone to get my attention,
And in that ringing I forgot everything I knew.
When you revealed yourself,
The sight of you was so mysterious that only you could handle the seeing of it.
After that day, even though I couldn’t always see you,
I knew where you were,
And I waited patiently for you to give more of yourself away.
Finally my persistence paid off,
And I saw through all of your disguises.
Now, the jig’s up, God,
Because everywhere I look
You are all that I see.
There’s no need to waste any more time
Trying to act as if you were other people,
Or howling around as if you were the wind,
Or playing at insects, elephants, and stars.
It was a good joke, God,
But I see you now,
And I’ll never let you out of my sight again.
My eyes will always be glued to you,
But if my sight ever fails, then I’ll worship the sound of you,
And if my hearing ever fails, then I’ll worship the feel of you,
And if all of my other senses fail, then I’ll worship the memory of you.
I’m sorry to spoil your fun, God,
But if you ever want to play hide and seek with me again,
You’ll have to make me forget to remember.
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 21, 2009 8:15:35 GMT -5
Hi,
ZD-The poetry was a nice addition and pleasant variation to the discussion!
Live fully this holiday season! I'm checking out for a while, though, Inshallah, I may be able to check in on occasion.
Love One Love All ;D
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Post by lightmystic on Dec 21, 2009 11:05:49 GMT -5
Souley, For what it's worth, it sounds like you have a fundamental understanding of who you are (although I remember that from previous conversations with you, so it's not a surprise to me). So, other than some additional perspective that can sometimes be appreciated with the unfolding of the process, it looks like spiritual gravity is taking over and the heading towards the black hole of no self. Given that you know that there is more, it's just a matter of time (and not necessarily a lot of time) before spiritual gravity sucks you in.... So you can relax and enjoy the process as much as possible (not to imply that you aren't already), because you just need to keep doing what you're doing, which is listening to your infinite nature and functioning from that.... My girlfriend, mother, brother and a few friends are very important to me. I pretty much live a normal life, going to work every day, having too much to do, laundry to take care of, etc. Lately it seems that my spiritual search is converging with everyday life. It is really not very special in any way, but it's just.. very nice. I'm pretty happy I guess. As for the separate self, I don't really know. It seems to go back and forth. When I'm working I am very caught up in the role that I play, but I don't mind that, it seems pretty necessary. But on the bus home, or when lying in bed, I can easily slip into just seeing, beeing. If I just lie down and am still for a few minutes, I can watch the body breathing without "me" doing anything. I'm pretty sure that some more final falling apart has yet to happen, but it seems I'm free enough from myself that I can really enjoy life and what it gives me. From being a very intellectual kinda person that had a great need of achieving and getting acknowledged, I'm these days some kind of stupid idiot that has no interest in protecting a personal identity, and generally just seems to give pretty much. I do wish I was a bit more extrovert, but maybe that just means that will probably develop in time These last six months I have not been reading anything spiritual really, I kind of already got everything that words seem to be able to communicate. Or maybe I just want to think less and be more. My mind is also pretty still it seems, if I make an effort I can probably stop thought for a good 5 mins, if thats anything to measure. But more importantly it feels very relaxed generally. I still have many issues, I get upset or offended sometimes, but it seems less and less, and I'm more forgiving about that then before. From trying to be a perfect, enlightened kind of individual, to just being a free idiot, is a very beautiful development |
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Post by Portto on Dec 21, 2009 13:25:39 GMT -5
Beautiful poem, ZD!
Did you write it?
All verses are nice, but I'm having trouble understanding the last one:
"You’ll have to make me forget to remember."
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2009 14:02:44 GMT -5
porto: Yes. The last line is a playful explication of our ironic situation. This game of hide and seek only has one player, and if that player wants to play the game again using this body/mind, it will have to erase all memory of itself in order to do so. LOL
I may start a poetry thread in the next few days because there are several people on the board who write poetry. Cheers.
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Post by klaus on Dec 21, 2009 16:19:04 GMT -5
Hi Klaus, Thanks for sharing. It sounds in a way like you've actually gone off the edge. Who knows, maybe some of this will ring a bell. Let's see. Perhaps, I can provide a few points of reference and a brief on the little guy up to the "last step" that might suffice as a context of sorts. The last step is the one from the limited finite view of the world that most every person you meet refers to as consensual reality and is constructed/perpetuated by thoughts of Perfectly limited perspective. This is the world a child is taught by ignorance existing in various forms to believe is the only world, the world of duality, and from which only that child may choose to try to wake up, if Perfectly meant to. A separate self’s search for answers is ultimately a search out of this finite worldview, yet because the ego is in charge, it tries to keep a foothold in the former. That’s its job. That’s its finite existence as part of the infinite Existence, Perfectly so. A teaching seems to be what helps that seemingly (to itself) separate self see the ignorance that perpetuates the sense of any boundary/division/duality/etc. To Wake Up, for me, is to take that last step into That which is beyond or just below the deepest recesses within this finite world,,, the Ground/Nothing. As per the Mirdad quote, it’s where everything breaks down, being becoming non-being, non-being coming into being. The experience as such is a bit dizzying for the conditioned separate self to integrate, because of the very stickiness of its tools (thoughts oriented toward finiteness) to think about and describe it. To Integrate is to further Understand/Feel the Relationship between these (seemingly two –i.e., dualistic- worlds) and See Everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) as the expression of What Is as One, and Perfectly so. In my expression of this experience, this Understanding/Feeling into requires a return to the very Ground/Nothing, rather than the acquisition of more, per se. Indeed, Understanding/Feeling That which is Infinite and going on As It Is is no longer a search for answers as such, but a trusting journey of endless steps Nowhere into the Unknown. It seems that one actually starts to see probabilistic patterns of these finite relationships, and can even consciously play out certain parts of the dream, but even so, whatever happens is What Is,,,Truth. How/Why/When/What/By Whom All this happens is but a Mystery Existing As IT (stillness/wisdom/nothing) AND Playing with IT (movement/love/everything), and I/YOU ARE THAT. ____________________________________________________ Now, back to the little guy. I went through a lot of freaking out and personal hell, along with the wild and willie interesting "powers" popping up here and there. I never did anything formal either. Indeed, I rejected everything that had much to do with systems, methods, or control, and tended more toward the chaos/esoteric kinds of ideas for whatever reason. I basically just read and read, experimented, trekked, spiralled, freaked, shed layer after layer, rejected, saw, expounded, and shut down and shut up. INTENSE and brow raising at times, but generally, I was an alright and supportive person, for the most part to be around for days or weeks at a time,,,,just nuts and needed to be very alone at times,,,,sometimes longer than others. The journey was all going on inside for the most part anyway, though many could tell by my selection of books and hobbies and topics that I was up to something. Most of what people saw was just the lie I was projecting. Y’know, being the “somebody” I thought I was, while feeling the kind of destruction necessary for my path. Did it have to be that way? I guess so. Why? No idea. Eventually, I went the recluse route and just had to sit down, keep things real simple, and more or less shut up. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with discussing it, BTW.... Whatever is, whatever happens, IS, and obviously needs to happen. Period. Perfectly so. Now, to the topic. The last step was after the words “I don’t know” came across as consciousness. Something at the deepest recesses of my body/mind seemed to just let go and there was something of a flood or was it a slip or a cascade or a whatever (don’t know if something came or went or both---guess it doesn’t matter) and there I was in/as absolute stillness. It seems that happened full stop with just pure being sitting there, then I became aware my body/mind was rushing breathing it all in and breathing it all out, a watching out through eyes at extensions of my body and out the door into the bean field, body suspended in a hammock, all insect sounds, colors, textures, atmosphere acutely in focus of some awareness, everything dancing energy as me, me empty in the presence of something, fulfilling, tears rolling down my face, knowing that presence had always been there, in me, as me, home, here, had always been, just hadn’t known…knowing… search over…BE-LOVE-D… Perfectly so. Hi somethingNOTHING, To me it seems like there's no distinction anymore between consensual reality and IT. It all just IS. AS you say, Perfectly so. I recall early on in my search intensely focused on the existence of God exhausting all traditional sources: Western religions, Western philosophies, shamanism etc., getting no closer to an answer then when I'd begun. So one day while walking down the street I thought to myself; I give up, God dosen't exist. At that moment all became one, I didn't know where I began and everything else ended. There was no distinction whatsoever. I took it as an answer from God not knowing the true import of that experience. Of course after a while the experience faded, leaving the question of who is God. This started me on another search leading me to the Eastern religions which claimed Thou art That. Maybe it took all this time to integrate on some level to realize my first experience was my last, in the world of duality, and now my living is done in the world of duality and non- duality. Perfectly so. |
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Post by klaus on Dec 21, 2009 17:14:47 GMT -5
My girlfriend, mother, brother and a few friends are very important to me. I pretty much live a normal life, going to work every day, having too much to do, laundry to take care of, etc. Lately it seems that my spiritual search is converging with everyday life. It is really not very special in any way, but it's just.. very nice. I'm pretty happy I guess. As for the separate self, I don't really know. It seems to go back and forth. When I'm working I am very caught up in the role that I play, but I don't mind that, it seems pretty necessary. But on the bus home, or when lying in bed, I can easily slip into just seeing, beeing. If I just lie down and am still for a few minutes, I can watch the body breathing without "me" doing anything. I'm pretty sure that some more final falling apart has yet to happen, but it seems I'm free enough from myself that I can really enjoy life and what it gives me. From being a very intellectual kinda person that had a great need of achieving and getting acknowledged, I'm these days some kind of stupid idiot that has no interest in protecting a personal identity, and generally just seems to give pretty much. I do wish I was a bit more extrovert, but maybe that just means that will probably develop in time These last six months I have not been reading anything spiritual really, I kind of already got everything that words seem to be able to communicate. Or maybe I just want to think less and be more. My mind is also pretty still it seems, if I make an effort I can probably stop thought for a good 5 mins, if thats anything to measure. But more importantly it feels very relaxed generally. I still have many issues, I get upset or offended sometimes, but it seems less and less, and I'm more forgiving about that then before. From trying to be a perfect, enlightened kind of individual, to just being a free idiot, is a very beautiful development Hi Souley, As SomeNothing has said, just "be"in whatever you have to be, because it is already Perfectly so, and as Lightmystic has said spiritual gravity will take over. I want to share an insight into mundane existence. When I walk down a street I make it a point of looking directly into the eyes of any person I pass by. Ninety-nine percent will avoid my gaze. Why? Because on an uncousness level there is an awareness that both them and I are That. The one percent that do return my gaze I sense that they are aware of this but do not know how to articulate this awareness and recognise it for what it is. But in that "moment" when someone does return my gaze I sense they become aware and recognise what IS, if only for an instant. Enjoy the play. |
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