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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 15:41:58 GMT -5
Just briefly, as I'm not home. Puzzle, metaphor for the way Gurdjieff taught. But the ordinary mind can't -put it together', that's the whole point. Something else has to put it together, a higher mind that operates with a finer quality of energy. Accept the pin. I get'cher point about the mind not being able to do it, but typically that is what people engage in trying to carry out such a process. But, let's not let the mind idealize the metaphor and put someNOTHING closer than one's breath out of reach, make it seem more unlikely than it already appears to be (to the mind), and/or withdraw energy from the invitation given to the illusory self. To this last point, knowing your mind as well as you do, do you think it would prefer the active pursuit/seeking more than the actual finding? There is a very good book, but pretty violent, The Ronin, by William Jennings Dale (or some variation of those names). It's said it is based on a Zen story. This nasty Samurai Ronin attacks a group of people, among them a monk, who he slices in half at the waist. Before the monk is sliced, he tells the Ronin to come to that very crossroads exactly...gets sliced, but finishes his sentence before he topples...in one year to the day. The Ronin disregarded it for almost a year, but it kept coming to mind. His curiosity got the better of him, and he showed up at the crossroads the indicated day. A monk of the same order was there. The Ronin ended up becoming a monk. But in his history he had raped and killed a woman. The woman had a son, who knew the story of how his mother died. So the son vowed to become a great Samurai and some day take revenge on his mother. As a youth he found a Samurai willing to train him. The Samurai told him he would have to train until his two peas became walnuts. So for years he went under the most severe training one could imagine, daily getting beaten, and daily bruised, subject to sneak attack by a wooden sword any time of the day or night. Eventually he was trained with steel and he felt himself the equal of any man. So then he went in search of the Ronin. In the meantime the Ronin had become a holy man. He chanced upon a village who had to make a perilous journey through the mountains periodically to obtain the necessities of life. So he took upon himself the task to a tunnel through the mountain so as to make a safe passage for the villagers. So day after day, year after year, he tunneled through the mountain, but he always kept his sword nearby. The villagers brought him food and water. The son, now a strong Samurai, heard the story, and went to find him. The son challenged the Ronin to a duel, telling him who he was, the Ronin remembered all his previous sins, remembered the son's mother. So the Ronin told the Samurai he would accept the challenge, after he had completed the tunnel. So the son waited, practice and trained, and waited. Finally, he decided to help the Ronin dig the tunnel, to bring the day of the duel sooner. So they worked side by side, days and years. Finally, they broke through the mountain into the open air. But the opening went nowhere, directly in front of them was another mountain. The Ronin just walked back through the finished tunnel. The son, realizing the Ronin was giving up the task, shouted at him, We! cannot! give! up!, we! must! finish! the tunnel! But the Ronin just kept walking away. Story ends there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The obstacle is the way". Marcus Aurelius |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 25, 2024 19:13:42 GMT -5
I get'cher point about the mind not being able to do it, but typically that is what people engage in trying to carry out such a process. But, let's not let the mind idealize the metaphor and put someNOTHING closer than one's breath out of reach, make it seem more unlikely than it already appears to be (to the mind), and/or withdraw energy from the invitation given to the illusory self. To this last point, knowing your mind as well as you do, do you think it would prefer the active pursuit/seeking more than the actual finding? There is a very good book, but pretty violent, The Ronin, by William Jennings Dale (or some variation of those names). It's said it is based on a Zen story. This nasty Samurai Ronin attacks a group of people, among them a monk, who he slices in half at the waist. Before the monk is sliced, he tells the Ronin to come to that very crossroads exactly...gets sliced, but finishes his sentence before he topples...in one year to the day. The Ronin disregarded it for almost a year, but it kept coming to mind. His curiosity got the better of him, and he showed up at the crossroads the indicated day. A monk of the same order was there. The Ronin ended up becoming a monk. But in his history he had raped and killed a woman. The woman had a son, who knew the story of how his mother died. So the son vowed to become a great Samurai and some day take revenge on his mother. As a youth he found a Samurai willing to train him. The Samurai told him he would have to train until his two peas became walnuts. So for years he went under the most severe training one could imagine, daily getting beaten, and daily bruised, subject to sneak attack by a wooden sword any time of the day or night. Eventually he was trained with steel and he felt himself the equal of any man. So then he went in search of the Ronin. In the meantime the Ronin had become a holy man. He chanced upon a village who had to make a perilous journey through the mountains periodically to obtain the necessities of life. So he took upon himself the task to a tunnel through the mountain so as to make a safe passage for the villagers. So day after day, year after year, he tunneled through the mountain, but he always kept his sword nearby. The villagers brought him food and water. The son, now a strong Samurai, heard the story, and went to find him. The son challenged the Ronin to a duel, telling him who he was, the Ronin remembered all his previous sins, remembered the son's mother. So the Ronin told the Samurai he would accept the challenge, after he had completed the tunnel. So the son waited, practice and trained, and waited. Finally, he decided to help the Ronin dig the tunnel, to bring the day of the duel sooner. So they worked side by side, days and years. Finally, they broke through the mountain into the open air. But the opening went nowhere, directly in front of them was another mountain. The Ronin just walked back through the finished tunnel. The son, realizing the Ronin was giving up the task, shouted at him, We! cannot! give! up!, we! must! finish! the tunnel! But the Ronin just kept walking away. Story ends there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The obstacle is the way". Marcus Aurelius Excellent job on the summary, and thanks for taking the time to write it out. With Ronin meaning 'wanderer' as in "all who wander are not lost", it certainly sounds like a nice weave of the rebirth(i.e., tunnel) & mountain-no mountain-mountain themes. Noice! Marcus has some really good ones, doesn't he? When the attention is from and on mind, there is no way but through. Attend to keeping awareness free for noticing the potential for Being through. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 25, 2024 19:56:20 GMT -5
The primary reasons for Jewish rejection are as follows:Indeed, Paul did not hold the belief that Jesus was God, nor did he subscribe to the idea of Jesus’s virgin birth. However, these concepts are often introduced by Christians, which can inadvertently distance the Jewish community. That's the dogma, sure.  I'm not saying that's incorrect. I'm just saying that it's .. well ... you know .... dogma .....  That's the part about the Abrahamic stuff that I just recognize from the get-go. Kinda similar with Bibles without the Apocrypha material, though I have not gone into any of them in enough detail; just seem a little more juicy for potential squeezing. Evidently the RCC decided to stop including it in most their prints to save money.  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 25, 2024 20:53:57 GMT -5
That's the dogma, sure. I'm not saying that's incorrect. I'm just saying that it's .. well ... you know .... dogma ..... That's the part about the Abrahamic stuff that I just recognize from the get-go. Kinda similar with Bibles without the Apocrypha material, though I have not gone into any of them in enough detail; just seem a little more juicy for potential squeezing. Evidently the RCC decided to stop including it in most their prints to save money. I'd always assumed they didn't print it 'cause they figured they were heretical. What, with all the murders .. and all.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 25, 2024 22:06:06 GMT -5
There is a very good book, but pretty violent, The Ronin, by William Jennings Dale (or some variation of those names). It's said it is based on a Zen story. This nasty Samurai Ronin attacks a group of people, among them a monk, who he slices in half at the waist. Before the monk is sliced, he tells the Ronin to come to that very crossroads exactly...gets sliced, but finishes his sentence before he topples...in one year to the day. The Ronin disregarded it for almost a year, but it kept coming to mind. His curiosity got the better of him, and he showed up at the crossroads the indicated day. A monk of the same order was there. The Ronin ended up becoming a monk. But in his history he had raped and killed a woman. The woman had a son, who knew the story of how his mother died. So the son vowed to become a great Samurai and some day take revenge on his mother. As a youth he found a Samurai willing to train him. The Samurai told him he would have to train until his two peas became walnuts. So for years he went under the most severe training one could imagine, daily getting beaten, and daily bruised, subject to sneak attack by a wooden sword any time of the day or night. Eventually he was trained with steel and he felt himself the equal of any man. So then he went in search of the Ronin. In the meantime the Ronin had become a holy man. He chanced upon a village who had to make a perilous journey through the mountains periodically to obtain the necessities of life. So he took upon himself the task to a tunnel through the mountain so as to make a safe passage for the villagers. So day after day, year after year, he tunneled through the mountain, but he always kept his sword nearby. The villagers brought him food and water. The son, now a strong Samurai, heard the story, and went to find him. The son challenged the Ronin to a duel, telling him who he was, the Ronin remembered all his previous sins, remembered the son's mother. So the Ronin told the Samurai he would accept the challenge, after he had completed the tunnel. So the son waited, practice and trained, and waited. Finally, he decided to help the Ronin dig the tunnel, to bring the day of the duel sooner. So they worked side by side, days and years. Finally, they broke through the mountain into the open air. But the opening went nowhere, directly in front of them was another mountain. The Ronin just walked back through the finished tunnel. The son, realizing the Ronin was giving up the task, shouted at him, We! cannot! give! up!, we! must! finish! the tunnel! But the Ronin just kept walking away. Story ends there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The obstacle is the way". Marcus Aurelius Excellent job on the summary, and thanks for taking the time to write it out. With Ronin meaning 'wanderer' as in "all who wander are not lost", it certainly sounds like a nice weave of the rebirth(i.e., tunnel) & mountain-no mountain-mountain themes. Noice! Marcus has some really good ones, doesn't he? When the attention is from and on mind, there is no way but through. Attend to keeping awareness free for noticing the potential for Being through. Yes, but Epictetus is my favorite Stoic. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 26, 2024 7:36:30 GMT -5
That's the part about the Abrahamic stuff that I just recognize from the get-go. Kinda similar with Bibles without the Apocrypha material, though I have not gone into any of them in enough detail; just seem a little more juicy for potential squeezing. Evidently the RCC decided to stop including it in most their prints to save money. I'd always assumed they didn't print it 'cause they figured they were heretical. What, with all the murders .. and all. Yeah, people peeps, not having spent time in the contemplation of the death-rebirth principle, have a hard time putting death into a broader perspective. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 26, 2024 7:43:05 GMT -5
Excellent job on the summary, and thanks for taking the time to write it out. With Ronin meaning 'wanderer' as in "all who wander are not lost", it certainly sounds like a nice weave of the rebirth(i.e., tunnel) & mountain-no mountain-mountain themes. Noice! Marcus has some really good ones, doesn't he? When the attention is from and on mind, there is no way but through. Attend to keeping awareness free for noticing the potential for Being through. Yes, but Epictetus is my favorite Stoic. Yeah, I liked some of them, too. Maybe you can post some and give a small critique. I'd be curious. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 26, 2024 9:07:11 GMT -5
The dismissal was unlikely to have been purely ideological. Almost certainly there were various passions involved in the way it went down. There is an old aphorism. Probably older than the English language itself: "wanting, is a better thing, than having".
The primary reasons for Jewish rejection are as follows:Indeed, Paul did not hold the belief that Jesus was God, nor did he subscribe to the idea of Jesus’s virgin birth. However, these concepts are often introduced by Christians, which can inadvertently distance the Jewish community. You've asked me what I think the principles of the bible are. But your interests in it seem to be more directed toward its historicity in the time-bound fashion, rather than how it might be interpreted. I've poked around on the historical aspects to see what the population, seers, religions, and the like might have been tinkering with at the time with respect to beliefs, realizations, etc, but I do not accept the notion that Christianity is some monolithic singular belief system, but a set of ideas that can have as many interpretations as there are those willing to take a look and through the unique lenses of their present state of mind. As such, maybe I don't really approach it in the way you seem to have, so I'm not sure what you're asking for. Maybe, if you're interested, you can ask for something more specific about a reported day in the life of Jesus and/or what he may have understood as the Christ. We could then maybe give it a bit more attention. As a group, we tend to question/eschew the beliefs a majority of church members seem to adhere to, so it may be that we 'prefer' to pull back a potential layer and reframe a potential perception in light of the absence of clingy beliefs. That's where such teachings may get re-energized in the present... though maybe not. |
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Post by farmer on Jun 26, 2024 15:03:28 GMT -5
Yes, but Epictetus is my favorite Stoic. Yeah, I liked some of them, too. Maybe you can post some and give a small critique. I'd be curious.   |
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Post by laughter on Jun 26, 2024 17:13:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I liked some of them, too. Maybe you can post some and give a small critique. I'd be curious. kant .. stop ...... Pleeeeeeeeee! ..... |
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Post by Gopal on Jun 26, 2024 22:33:35 GMT -5
The primary reasons for Jewish rejection are as follows:Indeed, Paul did not hold the belief that Jesus was God, nor did he subscribe to the idea of Jesus’s virgin birth. However, these concepts are often introduced by Christians, which can inadvertently distance the Jewish community. You've asked me what I think the principles of the bible are. But your interests in it seem to be more directed toward its historicity in the time-bound fashion, rather than how it might be interpreted. I've poked around on the historical aspects to see what the population, seers, religions, and the like might have been tinkering with at the time with respect to beliefs, realizations, etc, but I do not accept the notion that Christianity is some monolithic singular belief system, but a set of ideas that can have as many interpretations as there are those willing to take a look and through the unique lenses of their present state of mind. As such, maybe I don't really approach it in the way you seem to have, so I'm not sure what you're asking for. Maybe, if you're interested, you can ask for something more specific about a reported day in the life of Jesus and/or what he may have understood as the Christ. We could then maybe give it a bit more attention. As a group, we tend to question/eschew the beliefs a majority of church members seem to adhere to, so it may be that we 'prefer' to pull back a potential layer and reframe a potential perception in light of the absence of clingy beliefs. That's where such teachings may get re-energized in the present... though maybe not. Did you ever read Bible? What did you understand out of your reading? That's the simple question. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 27, 2024 5:09:49 GMT -5
Yeah, I liked some of them, too. Maybe you can post some and give a small critique. I'd be curious. F'in love it!!  Indeed, sometimes 'nuff is enough, as it's contextual. And then, maybe, out of the blue, a question (of its foundation) or a deeper insight (of its limitation) might arise. Perfectly so.  Good to see you, farmer. How's the wild blue yonder goin'? |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jun 27, 2024 5:46:01 GMT -5
You've asked me what I think the principles of the bible are. But your interests in it seem to be more directed toward its historicity in the time-bound fashion, rather than how it might be interpreted. I've poked around on the historical aspects to see what the population, seers, religions, and the like might have been tinkering with at the time with respect to beliefs, realizations, etc, but I do not accept the notion that Christianity is some monolithic singular belief system, but a set of ideas that can have as many interpretations as there are those willing to take a look and through the unique lenses of their present state of mind. As such, maybe I don't really approach it in the way you seem to have, so I'm not sure what you're asking for. Maybe, if you're interested, you can ask for something more specific about a reported day in the life of Jesus and/or what he may have understood as the Christ. We could then maybe give it a bit more attention. As a group, we tend to question/eschew the beliefs a majority of church members seem to adhere to, so it may be that we 'prefer' to pull back a potential layer and reframe a potential perception in light of the absence of clingy beliefs. That's where such teachings may get re-energized in the present... though maybe not. Did you ever read Bible? What did you understand out of your reading? That's the simple question. Parts of different ones, never the whole of any of them. Simple answer: at its core is the death-rebirth principle. The messianic aspect of that story, at once a mind hook and an historical, conceptual instrument found in various forms of spiritual literature, could be an oft misunderstood invitation. The Buddhist story, that runs in a similar vein, is a little 'cleaner', for want of a better word. Ramana 'Diaper Guy' Maharshi took the quest to heart and went into the heart of darkness itself to find the indistinguishable light at the end of the tunnel. One has to come SEE IT for themselves. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 27, 2024 10:11:35 GMT -5
Did you ever read Bible? What did you understand out of your reading? That's the simple question. Parts of different ones, never the whole of any of them. Simple answer: at its core is the death-rebirth principle. The messianic aspect of that story, at once a mind hook and an historical, conceptual instrument found in various forms of spiritual literature, could be an oft misunderstood invitation. The Buddhist story, that runs in a similar vein, is a little 'cleaner', for want of a better word. Ramana 'Diaper Guy' Maharshi took the quest to heart and went into the heart of darkness itself to find the indistinguishable light at the end of the tunnel. One has to come SEE IT for themselves. These last two sentences are the heart of the Greek Mysteries. There is an excellent book on this, among his other excellent books. In the Dark Places of Wisdom, Peter Kingsley. And the Greeks got the Mysteries, from Egypt. The Kings chamber in the Great Pyramid is not for the Pharoah's burial. The coffin was for the initiation ceremony. So death, burial and resurrection preceeded Christianity. |
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Post by farmer on Jun 27, 2024 11:46:10 GMT -5
F'in love it!! Indeed, sometimes 'nuff is enough, as it's contextual. And then, maybe, out of the blue, a question (of its foundation) or a deeper insight (of its limitation) might arise. Perfectly so. Good to see you, farmer. How's the wild blue yonder goin'? All goes well No problems or worries personally (whatever that last word means) |
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I'm not saying that's incorrect. I'm just saying that it's .. well ... you know .... dogma ..... 
