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Post by Reefs on Sept 21, 2016 11:48:30 GMT -5
If nothing of the other advice works: 1. Give up. 2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up. 3. Do what is there to do. If the seeking is genuine and not just intellectually driven interest then giving up is not an option. Once you are a seeker your head is in the tiger's mouth. There's no way out. |
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Post by japhy on Sept 21, 2016 12:12:29 GMT -5
If nothing of the other advice works: 1. Give up. 2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up. 3. Do what is there to do. If the seeking is genuine and not just intellectually driven interest then giving up is not an option. Once you are a seeker your head is in the tiger's mouth. There's no way out. And yet you can give up your practice, all ideas about the search and live your life. If searching continues, let it happen. Give up giving up, too. 😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 13:15:26 GMT -5
Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... Artists routinely enter states of body/mind that would blow other peeps away. That's not to say that there's no potential socks-knockin' woo-woo in your future ..  .. but what you're opening up to here reminds me of two different things I read from Adyashanti. There's this on unity consciousness experiences: The merging experience is very pleasant and very beautiful, and you may or may not ever have it. If you have a particular type of body-mind, you might experience having it every five minutes. If you are another type of body-mind, you might have it every five lifetimes. If means nothing whether or not this happens or how often. I have met many people who can merge at the drop of a hat, and they are about as free as a dog chasing its tail in a cage. Merging has nothing to do with being free or actually having any idea what Oneness really is. Oneness simply means that everything is the One. Everything is That, and everything always was That. When there is a very deep knowing that everything is One, then the movement of the me trying to find a past experience ceases. Movement is cut off. Seeking is cut off. The seeker is cut off. Realization cuts everything off all at once. Every experience that you will ever have is the One, whether that experience is merging or having to go to the bathroom. Even when ti's beating a stick on the floor and saying, "This is it, This is the Buddha. This is enlightened mind. It doesn't get more enlightened that this!" It is all God. para 11, chapter 13, "Spiritual Addiction". .. and then there's this on ego (which might be an echo chamber we're in  ): It's as if everything that's happening in a human being, especially a human being who is interested in being spiritual, gets used as proof of the existence of an ego that must be annihilated. And yet nobody can find it. I have yet to have somebody show me the ego. I've seen lots of thoughts, feelings, and emotions. I've watched expressions of anger, joy, depression and bliss, but I have yet to have one person present me with the ego. Many people present me with an assumption that because all these things exist, there must be a fall guy, somebody or something in themselves to blame. That's the common understanding about ego. But that is not ego. Things are sometimes as simple as they appear. Sometimes a thought is just a thought, a feeling only a feeling, and an action just an action, with no ego in it. Now the ego that exists, if there is any ego at all, is the thought that ego is there. But there is no evidence whatsoever for this ego's existence. Everything is just arising spontaneously, and if there is any ego at all, it is just this particular movement of mind that says, "It's mine". Now usually this thought, "It's mine," follows the arising of a thought or emotion. It might be, "I feel confusion -- it's mine," or "I feel jealous -- it's mine", or in response to whatever other experience is arising, "It belongs to me". One thinks there was ego present, and it caused this thought or feeling or confusion. Yet every time we go directly back to find the ego, we find that it was not there prior to thought but followed afterward. It's an interpretation of an event, of a given thought or emotions. It is the after-the-fact assumption that "it's mine." Ego is also the after-the-fact interpretation that says, "It's not mine," the rejection of a thought or feeling. It is easy to see that such a position implies that there is somebody there who it doesn't belong to. That's the world of duality. It's my though, my confusion, or whatever it is, or it's not my thought, not my confusion, not mine. Both of these are movements or interpretations of what is. Ego is only this interpretation, this movement of mind, and that is why nobody can find it. It's like a ghost. It's just a particularly conditioned movement of mind. From "Emptiness Dancing", Chapter 11 "Ego", para's 3-5
"I am not." Said the ghost. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Sept 21, 2016 13:21:57 GMT -5
If nothing of the other advice works: 1. Give up. 2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up. 3. Do what is there to do. If the seeking is genuine and not just intellectually driven interest then giving up is not an option. Once you are a seeker your head is in the tiger's mouth. There's no way out. It's more like a vacation. Nothing's working, no end in sight, might as well just let it all go....get on with it. But there will be more to seek and investigate soon enough because, as you say, there's no way out. "Giving up" in this way is no different than spinning wheels/seeking. Just a different flavor. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 19:54:43 GMT -5
Deep reflective-thought until an original-thought arrives(bringing new life) would sum-up contemplation from my "I's" viewpoint. It seems when the ego is lessened(relaxed) magic happens Visa.(ego can only relax... not make it happen) The arrival into the prior-state of Mind is what brings about our minds spontaneous 'Aha's!'  although I've noticed that in the recent months I've become more wary about using the ego-concept, as it seems to lead very easily into externalising some thoughts or patterns of thought into some kind of devil sitting on our shoulder, which seems like confused split-mind manoeuvring. I mean, behaviour happens, thoughts and other mind-stuff happens, and some kinds of patterns can be seen in all of them - but where's this ego in the end and how can it lessen or relax? Without an ego their is no-search: It is as-though ego's love carrots. Self is carrot, yogurt, frogs legs and our Spirit is the source of all. |
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Post by zendancer on Sept 21, 2016 21:17:25 GMT -5
How do you know that you never had a significant insight? What makes ZD or enigmas or Haikus insights more significant than yours? Are you not the only one to "have" real insights? Well, I meant that I still feel like I'm a separate self (unlike, from what I can gather from a distance, ZD or Enigma (don't know who Haiku is unless it's Hakuin)); and I haven't even had any CC/kensho/unity-consciousness/woo-woo -experiences, which many other folks here have. I suspect ZD was primarily referring to these kind of things with "significant insight" in the OP. Admittedly I have encountered other fellow seekers (e.g. here) who seem to be caught in some confusions/delusions that AFAIK I am not, so I suppose I'm not completely devoid of insight. But so far it seems to be largely intellectual, which I think is in the end a pretty weak currency in this area. Of course ultimately there is "no-one" to have significant insights nor is there any such things as significant or insignificant, but like ZD in the OP, I was speaking from a relative context where these concepts still make relative sense. Without maintaining some level of illusion there's very little about the "path" that can even be discussed! We can remember that Ramana's deepest teaching was given in silence... If nothing of the other advice works: 1. Give up. 2. Give up the frustration which comes with giving up. 3. Do what is there to do. Does this mean some of the anxiety you were discussing in the "What to do?" -thread has passed or transformed? FWIW, I wasn't referring primarily to CC experiences or anything woo-woo. Insights and realizations can certainly result from those kinds of experiences, but they're not necessary. Insights and realizations can occur simply as a result of contemplating what one wants to know. Small insights probably occur all the time but are overlooked. Big insights, however, involve penetrating big illusions, so probably a significant degree of silence and self-inquiry are involved in those. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 21:51:50 GMT -5
If the seeking is genuine and not just intellectually driven interest then giving up is not an option. Once you are a seeker your head is in the tiger's mouth. There's no way out. And yet you can give up your practice, all ideas about the search and live your life. If searching continues, let it happen. Give up giving up, too. 😂 Learning to give-up after having one-bite of the carrot is NOT an option for ones ego as ego wants to succeed, stay in the bright, give light etc. Grasping onto the search-mode is what stops early momentary returning's to occur. Awareness is all we have if we are educating our ego's, the self fine as it is. Let everything else free... hold not one thing but your awareness is my viewing point. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 22:01:27 GMT -5
Well, I meant that I still feel like I'm a separate self (unlike, from what I can gather from a distance, ZD or Enigma (don't know who Haiku is unless it's Hakuin)); and I haven't even had any CC/kensho/unity-consciousness/woo-woo -experiences, which many other folks here have. I suspect ZD was primarily referring to these kind of things with "significant insight" in the OP. Admittedly I have encountered other fellow seekers (e.g. here) who seem to be caught in some confusions/delusions that AFAIK I am not, so I suppose I'm not completely devoid of insight. But so far it seems to be largely intellectual, which I think is in the end a pretty weak currency in this area. Of course ultimately there is "no-one" to have significant insights nor is there any such things as significant or insignificant, but like ZD in the OP, I was speaking from a relative context where these concepts still make relative sense. Without maintaining some level of illusion there's very little about the "path" that can even be discussed! We can remember that Ramana's deepest teaching was given in silence... Does this mean some of the anxiety you were discussing in the "What to do?" -thread has passed or transformed? FWIW, I wasn't referring primarily to CC experiences or anything woo-woo. Insights and realizations can certainly result from those kinds of experiences, but they're not necessary. Insights and realizations can occur simply as a result of contemplating what one wants to know. Small insights probably occur all the time but are overlooked. Big insights, however, involve penetrating big illusions, so probably a significant degree of silence and self-inquiry are involved in those. At the beginning, my big insight was on Death, which was fully-liberating ZDancer... then the mind returned into view and I began having many minor-realizations on any topic that my I focused upon. I suggest adopting HONESTY as a tool worth embodying as in the END you will be honest whether you like it or NOT!  |
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Post by japhy on Sept 22, 2016 1:05:54 GMT -5
Well, I meant that I still feel like I'm a separate self (unlike, from what I can gather from a distance, ZD or Enigma (don't know who Haiku is unless it's Hakuin)); and I haven't even had any CC/kensho/unity-consciousness/woo-woo -experiences, which many other folks here have. I suspect ZD was primarily referring to these kind of things with "significant insight" in the OP. Admittedly I have encountered other fellow seekers (e.g. here) who seem to be caught in some confusions/delusions that AFAIK I am not, so I suppose I'm not completely devoid of insight. But so far it seems to be largely intellectual, which I think is in the end a pretty weak currency in this area. Of course ultimately there is "no-one" to have significant insights nor is there any such things as significant or insignificant, but like ZD in the OP, I was speaking from a relative context where these concepts still make relative sense. Without maintaining some level of illusion there's very little about the "path" that can even be discussed! We can remember that Ramana's deepest teaching was given in silence... If you contemplate the following I am sure you can have some insights in no-time: How can I function in a non intellectual world if I am devoid of non intellectual insight? Furthermore: Why do I talk so smartly about "no-one", absolute and relative plane, illusion when I am devoid of any non intellectual insight? What is the difference between intellectual insight and non intellectual insight? Feel free to share your results. Does this mean some of the anxiety you were discussing in the "What to do?" -thread has passed or transformed? Yes. |
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Post by laughter on Sept 22, 2016 10:49:28 GMT -5
Artists routinely enter states of body/mind that would blow other peeps away. That's not to say that there's no potential socks-knockin' woo-woo in your future .. .. but what you're opening up to here reminds me of two different things I read from Adyashanti. There's this on unity consciousness experiences: .. and then there's this on ego (which might be an echo chamber we're in ): "I am not." Said the ghost. Nice strategy! .. but Adya's "mine/yours" version of ego is as demanding in it's simplicity as a self-inquiry challenge can ever get.  |
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Post by laughter on Sept 22, 2016 10:53:56 GMT -5
If the seeking is genuine and not just intellectually driven interest then giving up is not an option. Once you are a seeker your head is in the tiger's mouth. There's no way out. It's more like a vacation. Nothing's working, no end in sight, might as well just let it all go....get on with it. But there will be more to seek and investigate soon enough because, as you say, there's no way out. "Giving up" in this way is no different than spinning wheels/seeking. Just a different flavor. Christians have been doing it for thousands of years, and that game likely has been going on much much longer than that. The devotionalist of any stripe is faced with a life-long koan that's not designed to be answered: "is this God's will that I do, or my own?" .. or, one layer deeper: "do I love God in this instant, or not?". That's all surrender amounts to.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 21:06:35 GMT -5
12. Be skeptical of any claims that you haven't verified for yourself. though in itself good advice (as are most other points here) YOU can NEVER verify MY experience. If you have no BS detector (which i DO have) you can never trust anybody´s experience unless it matches yours. for someone like you, who is cataloguing other peoples experiences, that is a major drawback. I have noticed that you have so far ignored almost everything i have posted here on STF regarding spiritual experience, even though i spoke the truth. which tells me you are rather random and prejudiced. which is a pity. i suggest you make your own BS detector. be well Sunshine: This thread was created for offering advice to people who are searching for the truth. Most seekers are seeking because they're not satisfied with what they have been told about the nature of reality by their parents, teachers, preachers, friends, etc., or what they've read in books. Do you have any advice that you would like to add to this list? OK, sorry practice integral yoga as written in "the Adventure of Consciousness". It explains among others how you can learn to know when somebody is lying to you, deceiving you.Although they write it in more civilised terms. (i saw BS used in similar example yesterday, sorry, i assume it is standard english, but now i am beginning to doubt...).It gives advice, to pay attention to vital vibrations, (aka as astral, or life force)pay attention to your chakras. There is a DESCENDING FORCE that hardly any teaching writes about. It opens the chakras gently and slowly.(as opposed to the violent opening of chakras with kundalini). It opened my inner eye...which has become my lie detector. Nobody can lie to you anymore. For me this goes most of the time even when persons are not in the same room with me, like here on the internet.(which is the main reason why i am here-to investigate this siddhi further) It is how i know you have a genuine experience, it is why i respect Gopal despite his erring explanations which are nonsense, his experience is real, i understand him energetically. It is why i critisise E because he is hiding something. It is why i like TMT because she has a very nice, gentle energy.It is how i knew Silver was in hospital before anybody else,(a year ,or two, ago)and wrote about it here on STF before she did. It is how i know BfromT is-has become a psychic vampire... It is how i know that another person here is always wallowing on the edge of self pity, and hides it well.I could go on and on and on... It is something you have not learned.And could greatly benefit from in your research.If you would allow someone to teach you.But my impression from you is that you already know everything.And only acknowledge what parallels your experience. Sir. edit: i used the BS expression for lack of a better word.English not my native language.I saw someone use it just yesterday in similar context.I guess it upset you. Sorry. |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 23, 2016 8:28:02 GMT -5
Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... Ooh. Ouch.  So you already distrust thinking so much that you distrust the distrust because you don't actually believe the distrust (on a deep level)? Haha, that could be one way of putting it. I would perhaps say that my thinking seems to be a bit disconnected from body knowledge/emotions/etc, so thought-based inquiry doesn't seem to sink very deep. So basically whether I question thoughts or not or mistrust thoughts/thinking or not seems to usually stay on the level of mental kungfu. This means in practice that, say, questioning the validity of a recurring thought (or a type of thought) doesn't seem to have much effect on the recurrence of the thought. I think ATA etc works better for me at the moment than thought-based inquiry into the thoughts... |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 23, 2016 8:50:46 GMT -5
Yup indeed... I think both the idea of the "ego" and the idea that it can loosen or relax are actually valid pointers, but I think they're very easily and commonly misinterpreted in ways that create new traps. I'd be happy if something like what you described would happen to me as well, although I suspect the way it's likely to play out might be different in my case. I've dug myself into a bit of a hole by being pretty intensely intellectual as long as I remember and indulging in a lot of wanky thought-manoeurving such as western philosophy. So when I watched these Byron Katie -videos on Youtube where some of the people seemed to have of notable insights from questions such as "can you absolutely know that <the thought/belief> is true" or from the turnarounds, it made me think that I've dug myself too deeply in my head for that to be likely to happen for me. That is, the fundamental relativity of thoughts/beliefs and the knowledge that we project onto others have been intellectually pretty clear for me for so long that I can very easily question the validity of my thoughts/beliefs on the mind-level, but it doesn't tend to sink any deeper. I might be the kind of person who needs to encounter harder lessons for really opening up... Artists routinely enter states of body/mind that would blow other peeps away. That's not to say that there's no potential socks-knockin' woo-woo in your future .. Maybe you have a slightly idealised view of contemporary artists - in my experience most of them have buried themselves as deep into their heads as anyone while they're engaging with art as a career or other means to an end, and so have left the shamanistic tendencies they might have had to atrophy... Thanks for these, nice segments. Reminds me that I should read some Adyashanti one of these days - I've only watched some satsang-videos and listened to some audiotapes, but he does write well... |
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Post by wei sa on Sept 23, 2016 9:11:27 GMT -5
Well, I meant that I still feel like I'm a separate self (unlike, from what I can gather from a distance, ZD or Enigma (don't know who Haiku is unless it's Hakuin)); and I haven't even had any CC/kensho/unity-consciousness/woo-woo -experiences, which many other folks here have. I suspect ZD was primarily referring to these kind of things with "significant insight" in the OP. Admittedly I have encountered other fellow seekers (e.g. here) who seem to be caught in some confusions/delusions that AFAIK I am not, so I suppose I'm not completely devoid of insight. But so far it seems to be largely intellectual, which I think is in the end a pretty weak currency in this area. Of course ultimately there is "no-one" to have significant insights nor is there any such things as significant or insignificant, but like ZD in the OP, I was speaking from a relative context where these concepts still make relative sense. Without maintaining some level of illusion there's very little about the "path" that can even be discussed! We can remember that Ramana's deepest teaching was given in silence... If you contemplate the following I am sure you can have some insights in no-time: How can I function in a non intellectual world if I am devoid of non intellectual insight? Furthermore: Why do I talk so smartly about "no-one", absolute and relative plane, illusion when I am devoid of any non intellectual insight? What is the difference between intellectual insight and non intellectual insight? Feel free to share your results. Haha well I appreciate you poking at this in case I have overlooked something - it's true that one can get attached to all kinds of labels and beliefs, some of them quite subtle. But I wasn't really trying to make any point that I'm completely devoid of non-intellectual insight - more just a small caveat that not only am I still a seeker (rather than a "finder"), but moreover I've only been serious in my seeking for a pretty short time, and so there might be some freshman's naivety in what I might suggest. |
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.. but what you're opening up to here reminds me of two different things I read from Adyashanti.
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