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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 13:48:51 GMT -5
..hello boredom my old friend...
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
‘Neath the halo of a streetlamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence
And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
No one dare
Disturb the sound of silence
“Fools” said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you”
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said “The words of the prophets
Are written on subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence” Thx it's touching. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Aug 23, 2016 13:54:15 GMT -5
..hello boredom my old friend...
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
‘Neath the halo of a streetlamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence
And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
No one dare
Disturb the sound of silence
“Fools” said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you”
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence
And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said “The words of the prophets
Are written on subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence” Thx it's touching. well it was a HIT too  on that note, addiction is a good angle. I feel like so much of this awakening biz is about getting sober. Nirvana is like the most sober state of all. Self-Realized -- all that self-drunkeness just vaporizes. Here we chat on this web forum, keyed up for the next textual hit. |
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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 14:08:24 GMT -5
well it was a HIT too on that note, addiction is a good angle. I feel like so much of this awakening biz is about getting sober. Nirvana is like the most sober state of all. Self-Realized -- all that self-drunkeness just vaporizes. Here we chat on this web forum, keyed up for the next textual hit. I'm not better than any alcoholic who medicates his fear and pain ( not that alcoholics are worse ppl). Just for me I use mental **** instead of liquor. Even that's how I ended here. I'm not sure how honest I am. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Aug 23, 2016 14:20:35 GMT -5
well it was a HIT too on that note, addiction is a good angle. I feel like so much of this awakening biz is about getting sober. Nirvana is like the most sober state of all. Self-Realized -- all that self-drunkeness just vaporizes. Here we chat on this web forum, keyed up for the next textual hit. I'm not better than any alcoholic who medicates his fear and pain ( not that alcoholics are worse ppl). Just for me I use mental **** instead of liquor. Even that's how I ended here. I'm not sure how honest I am. Sounds honest to me. Are you familiar with the four noble truths? |
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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 14:25:43 GMT -5
I'm not better than any alcoholic who medicates his fear and pain ( not that alcoholics are worse ppl). Just for me I use mental **** instead of liquor. Even that's how I ended here. I'm not sure how honest I am. Sounds honest to me. Are you familiar with the four noble truths? Maybe I'm honest now but often enough not. The first one is: "Life is suffering" I think. The others I forgot. |
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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 14:43:01 GMT -5
No of course not. Action and eating comes and everything disappears but somehow i return to that basis later on. That's a significant clue. It might even make a great koan: "Why do I feel fine when I'm absorbed in some real-life activity, but not so fine when I start reflecting about life?" During a question/answer period someone once asked a sage, "When I'm here on retreat, I feel great, and I have no problems, but when I return home, all of my old problems return." The sage responded, "Find out what you're doing differently here than when you return home." Or put in another way: Is really thinking the problem or what I want to avoid through thinking? You said after SR thinking stopped being a problem for you. It didn't matter. Maybe because there was no need to avoid something through thinking? Why do people think much? To avoid facing reality. Who wants really face it? It takes a lot of courage. Of course quietness is nice but what bubbles up into the silence? Pain and fear. At least for me, nowadays. "Lifetimes" of pain and fear. I don't want to face that. Do I have a choice? |
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Post by maxdprophet on Aug 23, 2016 14:47:28 GMT -5
Sounds honest to me. Are you familiar with the four noble truths? Maybe I'm honest now but often enough not. The first one is: "Life is suffering" I think. The others I forgot. The second one he defines how suffering happens. The third one how it can be stopped. And the fourth one is the way to do that. But the second one is especially good in my opinion (third follows naturally and the Fourth is mega religion). "The Second Noble Truth states that the cause of all suffering (dukkha) is desire (Tanha, Trishna or Raga -depending on translation). Tanha is a term that roughly translates to “thirst,” or “desire.” We all enjoy good food, enjoy fine music, pleasant company. When we enjoy these things we want more and more of the things. We try to prolong the pleasant experiences. We try to get more and more of the things and yet we are never satisfied. We may be fond of a particular food and yet if we eat it again and again we will get bored of it. We try another food and we like until we get bored with it. This happens with friends, places to live, your hair-style the list of example is endless." fiercebuddhist.org/2011/03/31/buddhas-second-noble-truth-samudaya"Craving is like a great tree with many branches. There are branches of greed, bad thoughts and of anger. The fruit of the tree of craving is suffering but how does the tree of craving grow? Where can we find it? The answer, says the Buddha, is that the tree of craving has its roots in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance, and its seeds fall and flourish whenever they find ignorance." www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s04.htmGreed and desire, represented in art by a rooster Ignorance or delusion, represented by a pig Hatred and destructive urges, represented by a snake  |
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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 14:55:37 GMT -5
Maybe I'm honest now but often enough not. The first one is: "Life is suffering" I think. The others I forgot. The second one he defines how suffering happens. The third one how it can be stopped. And the fourth one is the way to do that. But the second one is especially good in my opinion (third follows naturally and the Fourth is mega religion). "The Second Noble Truth states that the cause of all suffering (dukkha) is desire (Tanha, Trishna or Raga -depending on translation). Tanha is a term that roughly translates to “thirst,” or “desire.” We all enjoy good food, enjoy fine music, pleasant company. When we enjoy these things we want more and more of the things. We try to prolong the pleasant experiences. We try to get more and more of the things and yet we are never satisfied. We may be fond of a particular food and yet if we eat it again and again we will get bored of it. We try another food and we like until we get bored with it. This happens with friends, places to live, your hair-style the list of example is endless." fiercebuddhist.org/2011/03/31/buddhas-second-noble-truth-samudaya"Craving is like a great tree with many branches. There are branches of greed, bad thoughts and of anger. The fruit of the tree of craving is suffering but how does the tree of craving grow? Where can we find it? The answer, says the Buddha, is that the tree of craving has its roots in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance, and its seeds fall and flourish whenever they find ignorance." www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s04.htmGreed and desire, represented in art by a rooster Ignorance or delusion, represented by a pig Hatred and destructive urges, represented by a snake Thanks Max. I'm not arguing with that. Just that the eightfold path was always a bit complicated for me. Plus i know many buddhists who are still stuck. I was in a group once but even their monk never attained SR. And it's always a bit confusing because the stuff is thousands of years old. |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 23, 2016 15:00:32 GMT -5
That's a significant clue. It might even make a great koan: "Why do I feel fine when I'm absorbed in some real-life activity, but not so fine when I start reflecting about life?" During a question/answer period someone once asked a sage, "When I'm here on retreat, I feel great, and I have no problems, but when I return home, all of my old problems return." The sage responded, "Find out what you're doing differently here than when you return home." This might not be the way to answer a koan, but I just want to be honest. Sometimes there is "nothing to do". Thinking starts. Even sometimes I have something to do, still there is thinking. Sometimes there is perfect quietness. Rarely. Yesterday I found an ax in the woods and i was making firewood and then suddenly I made a sculpture out of a stem. I had never done that before. Perfect absorbtion. I am talking and missing the point, maybe. But something wants to talk. There is a point that I miss in your "teaching" or maybe our experience is just too different. What about strong emotions and their connection to thought? You never talk about that. Maybe it is not a topic for you. But for me it is. A part of me doesn't want to be quiet. It wants to avoid fear and pain. Yesterday at night my mind settled down. I was sitting there. It felt significant. But with time I became aware of a strong pain. First I observed, but it became to bad. I don't think it was because of posture. It was just there. I decided to go to sleep, but something wants to know where that pain came from. Japhy: I only talk about thoughts because thoughts are what cause all apparent problems. Emotions are just emotions. Pain is just pain. Emotions and pain do not cause more emotion and more pain; thoughts do that because they feed on themselves and create psychic agitation. One thought leads to another thought, and pretty soon we make statements like, "There is nothing to do. I don't like it when there is nothing to do. There is something that doesn't want to be quiet. Something wants to avoid fear and pain. Something felt significant. Something wants to know where a pain came from," etc. Are any of these statements true, or are these just ideas spinning around in a circle? Is physical pain present? If not, then any thought about future pain is just a thought. Same thing with fear. If nothing else, follow the Nike slogan and "Just do it." Forget about the future and do whatever has to be done. Then do the next thing that has to be done. Simple. At this age I'm beginning to appreciate the rigor of silent Zen retreats because they don't allow any escape. One is forced to sit and deal with whatever comes up. I can remember many retreats in the past when there was physical pain caused by long hours of sitting, but sometimes toughing it out led to insights and new levels of understanding. What's going on? Our tendency is to turn away from the tough questions, but persistence and a warrior-like attitude is often well rewarded. |
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Post by maxdprophet on Aug 23, 2016 15:12:17 GMT -5
The second one he defines how suffering happens. The third one how it can be stopped. And the fourth one is the way to do that. But the second one is especially good in my opinion (third follows naturally and the Fourth is mega religion). "The Second Noble Truth states that the cause of all suffering (dukkha) is desire (Tanha, Trishna or Raga -depending on translation). Tanha is a term that roughly translates to “thirst,” or “desire.” We all enjoy good food, enjoy fine music, pleasant company. When we enjoy these things we want more and more of the things. We try to prolong the pleasant experiences. We try to get more and more of the things and yet we are never satisfied. We may be fond of a particular food and yet if we eat it again and again we will get bored of it. We try another food and we like until we get bored with it. This happens with friends, places to live, your hair-style the list of example is endless." fiercebuddhist.org/2011/03/31/buddhas-second-noble-truth-samudaya"Craving is like a great tree with many branches. There are branches of greed, bad thoughts and of anger. The fruit of the tree of craving is suffering but how does the tree of craving grow? Where can we find it? The answer, says the Buddha, is that the tree of craving has its roots in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance, and its seeds fall and flourish whenever they find ignorance." www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s04.htmGreed and desire, represented in art by a rooster Ignorance or delusion, represented by a pig Hatred and destructive urges, represented by a snake Thanks Max. I'm not arguing with that. Just that the eightfold path was always a bit complicated for me. Plus i know many buddhists who are still stuck. I was in a group once but even their monk never attained SR. And it's always a bit confusing because the stuff is thousands of years old. Yea well I found the official forms of buddhism to be pretty defeating. The message was basically if you follow this set of practices and do it for decades maybe, if you're lucky, you'll be awakened. I put in some time and didn't see a whole lot of progress. I suppose lots of equanimity developed, so that's sumthin. I just am a fan of understanding. So your comments on addiction and grasping at mindstuff like an alcoholic to alcohol had me thinking of the 2nd. And zapping ignorance with understanding is what a lot of it is about. I get bored too. It passes. One of the hallmarks of despair/hopelessness is the thought 'this is how it always is.' I'm hearing that from you. That thought is a symptom it is not a truthful observation. I've been there. |
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Post by japhy on Aug 23, 2016 16:07:34 GMT -5
This might not be the way to answer a koan, but I just want to be honest. Sometimes there is "nothing to do". Thinking starts. Even sometimes I have something to do, still there is thinking. Sometimes there is perfect quietness. Rarely. Yesterday I found an ax in the woods and i was making firewood and then suddenly I made a sculpture out of a stem. I had never done that before. Perfect absorbtion. I am talking and missing the point, maybe. But something wants to talk. There is a point that I miss in your "teaching" or maybe our experience is just too different. What about strong emotions and their connection to thought? You never talk about that. Maybe it is not a topic for you. But for me it is. A part of me doesn't want to be quiet. It wants to avoid fear and pain. Yesterday at night my mind settled down. I was sitting there. It felt significant. But with time I became aware of a strong pain. First I observed, but it became to bad. I don't think it was because of posture. It was just there. I decided to go to sleep, but something wants to know where that pain came from. Japhy: I only talk about thoughts because thoughts are what cause all apparent problems. Emotions are just emotions. Pain is just pain. Emotions and pain do not cause more emotion and more pain; thoughts do that because they feed on themselves and create psychic agitation. One thought leads to another thought, and pretty soon we make statements like, "There is nothing to do. I don't like it when there is nothing to do. There is something that doesn't want to be quiet. Something wants to avoid fear and pain. Something felt significant. Something wants to know where a pain came from," etc. Are any of these statements true, or are these just ideas spinning around in a circle? Is physical pain present? If not, then any thought about future pain is just a thought. Same thing with fear. If nothing else, follow the Nike slogan and "Just do it." Forget about the future and do whatever has to be done. Then do the next thing that has to be done. Simple. At this age I'm beginning to appreciate the rigor of silent Zen retreats because they don't allow any escape. One is forced to sit and deal with whatever comes up. I can remember many retreats in the past when there was physical pain caused by long hours of sitting, but sometimes toughing it out led to insights and new levels of understanding. What's going on? Our tendency is to turn away from the tough questions, but persistence and a warrior-like attitude is often well rewarded. Ok ZD, now I understand you better. Sometimes from your writing things seem to simple: Just do ATA and get rid of thoughts. Maybe it's so simple, but then it's also not. The "danger" of informal practice is that you turn away when it gets painful. You never mention that. And the warrior attitude. First time I hear of it. Furthermore: Emotions can together with thought form a cycle where emotion causes thought and thought causes emotion. |
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Post by zin on Aug 23, 2016 18:33:23 GMT -5
That's a significant clue. It might even make a great koan: "Why do I feel fine when I'm absorbed in some real-life activity, but not so fine when I start reflecting about life?" During a question/answer period someone once asked a sage, "When I'm here on retreat, I feel great, and I have no problems, but when I return home, all of my old problems return." The sage responded, "Find out what you're doing differently here than when you return home." This might not be the way to answer a koan, but I just want to be honest. Sometimes there is "nothing to do". Thinking starts. Even sometimes I have something to do, still there is thinking. Sometimes there is perfect quietness. Rarely. Yesterday I found an ax in the woods and i was making firewood and then suddenly I made a sculpture out of a stem. I had never done that before. Perfect absorbtion. I am talking and missing the point, maybe. But something wants to talk. There is a point that I miss in your "teaching" or maybe our experience is just too different. What about strong emotions and their connection to thought? You never talk about that. Maybe it is not a topic for you. But for me it is. A part of me doesn't want to be quiet. It wants to avoid fear and pain. Yesterday at night my mind settled down. I was sitting there. It felt significant. But with time I became aware of a strong pain. First I observed, but it became to bad. I don't think it was because of posture. It was just there. I decided to go to sleep, but something wants to know where that pain came from. My two cents : ) I think you are not 'missing the point' by talking. If something wants to talk, then talk.. You have time both for talking and silence, don't you? But do you listen also? If all your concern is about "what to do", you need communication. If I give an example from myself, I learned to 'listen' only a little, after much time, but even this little listening suggests some things 'to do' every day. This listening includes observing life, reading people who had similar concerns like me, observing myself.. You are aware of thoughts, feelings, and you have a body of course.. You say you made a sculpture and you liked that absorption I guess.. I think the absorption one likes needs one to be a bit 'unified' in oneself. When one part does something and another one criticizes it, things don't go too well.. But these are just some thoughts.. don't mind them if they sound unrelated. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 23, 2016 22:47:15 GMT -5
I am checking in here once again. After some months of total absence I wanted to see how this forum is doing and read a few pages... Greetings to all who still remember me and those who don't. I just came back from two weeks of hiking, carrying food for a week, sleeping in basic shelters and so on. I hoped that it might bring some clarity and there was nothing else to do. There were some special moments but no great woho experience. Ambition has gone. When I first found non dual teachings and meditation i thought: that's it. I had some insights and some wooho. Nowadays the teachings are not new and I rarely meditate. A certain lightness of experience which was there has gone. I am aware of some good conditioning which still is there. Where? I am a bit hopeless and lost. A friend of mine who was seeking with me nowadays gets angry about "all those teachers", because they become a voice in his head. What is there to do? I really don't know. For now I'm having cake and Hit choclate. When you're lost do you try to find a direction, or a landmark? Does it make sense to plan action without an outcome in mind? |
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Post by jay17 on Aug 24, 2016 4:58:14 GMT -5
I only talk about thoughts because thoughts are what cause all apparent problems. Emotions are just emotions. Pain is just pain. Emotions and pain do not cause more emotion and more pain; thoughts do that because they feed on themselves and create psychic agitation. It is my understanding that only non beneficial thoughts create psychic agitation, not all thoughts. "Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mindfulness, right contemplation" - Buddha "He is able who thinks he is able." - Buddha "Nothing can harm you as much as your own thoughts unguarded." - Buddha "More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an undisciplined mind does greater harm." - Buddha "There is nothing so disobedient as an undisciplined mind, and there is nothing so obedient as a disciplined mind." - Buddha "Be vigilant; guard your mind against negative thoughts." - Buddha "Happiness does not depend on what you have or who you are, it solely relies on what you think." - Buddha "Awake. Be the witness of your thoughts. You are what observes, not what you observe" - Buddha "Words(expressed thoughts) have the power to both destroy and heal. When words(expressed thoughts) are both true and kind, they can change our world." - Buddha "As a flower that is lovely and beautiful, but is scentless, even so fruitless is the well-spoken word of one who practices it not." - Buddha "All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed, can wrong-doing remain?" - Buddha "It is wrong to think that misfortunes come from the east or from the west; they originate within one's own mind. Therefore, it is foolish to guard against misfortunes from the external world and leave the inner mind uncontrolled." - Buddha |
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Post by zendancer on Aug 24, 2016 6:34:54 GMT -5
I only talk about thoughts because thoughts are what cause all apparent problems. Emotions are just emotions. Pain is just pain. Emotions and pain do not cause more emotion and more pain; thoughts do that because they feed on themselves and create psychic agitation. It is my understanding that only non beneficial thoughts create psychic agitation, not all thoughts. "Right view, right aim, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mindfulness, right contemplation" - Buddha "He is able who thinks he is able." - Buddha "Nothing can harm you as much as your own thoughts unguarded." - Buddha "More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an undisciplined mind does greater harm." - Buddha "There is nothing so disobedient as an undisciplined mind, and there is nothing so obedient as a disciplined mind." - Buddha "Be vigilant; guard your mind against negative thoughts." - Buddha "Happiness does not depend on what you have or who you are, it solely relies on what you think." - Buddha "Awake. Be the witness of your thoughts. You are what observes, not what you observe" - Buddha "Words(expressed thoughts) have the power to both destroy and heal. When words(expressed thoughts) are both true and kind, they can change our world." - Buddha "As a flower that is lovely and beautiful, but is scentless, even so fruitless is the well-spoken word of one who practices it not." - Buddha "All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed, can wrong-doing remain?" - Buddha "It is wrong to think that misfortunes come from the east or from the west; they originate within one's own mind. Therefore, it is foolish to guard against misfortunes from the external world and leave the inner mind uncontrolled." - Buddha The Buddha was a very insightful cookie! |
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