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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 1:00:35 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be better to create a Koan from that very first meeting for the student, based on how they presented themselves, turning the door knob and stepping into the same room the Roshi were in? I have heard about the Books but never felt the need to investigate, being an intuitive sort of human, as I am aware how, when mind reads... it has the capacity to re-create and i didn't want to fool myself into belief, seeing that belief is a problem in our shared world. Your sincere friend. alfio As I noted earlier, koans are simply a way of helping people shift their attention away from thoughts to what is actual. It helps people realize that the body is incredibly intelligent, and that reflective verbal chatter is not necessary for interacting with reality. Koans are a way of showing people that all of the answers to their questions lie within themselves, and they help people develop confidence in their ability to find those answers. The usual approach is to explain how koans work, ask some simple koans, discuss them, and thereby allow a student to discover the value in utilizing intuition rather than the intellect in resolving problems created by reflective thinking. The resolution of some simple initial koans shows the student how conditioning is a major component in how the body/mind relates to the world, and shows that there is a way to attain freedom from conditioning. There's no need to create a special koan for a particular student because there are thousands of well-known existing koans that can be used for purposes of education. ZD, how pleasant it is to have someone here who is able to articulate simply, something that was never spoken to me when I first entered a zendo. You can be my MAN. Please keep an eye on me an if you SEE, give me a koan that could be appropriate for helping myself to see further. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 25, 2016 9:28:48 GMT -5
As I noted earlier, koans are simply a way of helping people shift their attention away from thoughts to what is actual. It helps people realize that the body is incredibly intelligent, and that reflective verbal chatter is not necessary for interacting with reality. Koans are a way of showing people that all of the answers to their questions lie within themselves, and they help people develop confidence in their ability to find those answers. The usual approach is to explain how koans work, ask some simple koans, discuss them, and thereby allow a student to discover the value in utilizing intuition rather than the intellect in resolving problems created by reflective thinking. The resolution of some simple initial koans shows the student how conditioning is a major component in how the body/mind relates to the world, and shows that there is a way to attain freedom from conditioning. There's no need to create a special koan for a particular student because there are thousands of well-known existing koans that can be used for purposes of education. ZD, how pleasant it is to have someone here who is able to articulate simply, something that was never spoken to me when I first entered a zendo. You can be my MAN. Please keep an eye on me an if you SEE, give me a koan that could be appropriate for helping myself to see further. Alfy: You already seem to know where the path leads, so you don't need anyone's help or advice. The more internally silent we become, the deeper becomes our feeling and sense of BEING THIS. The word "enlightenment" points to the discovery that what we are is "what is"--THIS. As the conventional sense of selfhood is seen through and left behind, along with any ideas about attainment, we are simply THIS in action. As you noted, some Zen traditions do not explain anything about the path. Teachers in those traditions simply tell people to sit down, shut up, and meditate. They assume that meditating in silence is all that's required. By contrast, other Zen traditions explain a lot more about the path, give many practical pointers, and show how questioning and self inquiry can be used as a way of facilitating existential discovery more rapidly. All of us are culturally indoctrinated and conditioned to see and interact with the world as imagined and interpreted through our thoughts. The more silent we become, the more that conditioning falls away, the more that we discover, and the lighter we travel. In every sense we cease to be separate from the flow, or unfolding, of THIS. Like a leaf on a breeze, we are wafted through the world in a state of not-knowing wonderment, reverence, and gratitude. Holding onto nothing and discarding nothing, we live in a world of suchness where there is no Other. Those who attain what Buddha called "the non-attained attainment" are truly blessed beyond measure. May all beings find and live in that "pure land." Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 19:18:03 GMT -5
Went to look for an old zen calender that had a Hui Neng(sp?) quote on it that i PARTICULARLY LOVED.
Mysteriously it has disappeared... some time ago
but it went something like this.
With purity you will (?) complete nirvana
Hui Neng
Cant remember the missing word though, but surely wouldn't have been 'attain' would it
as my I dosen't know, can't seem to know and gave-up trying to know, although now is considering 'it' again; you maybe true, so i will go out today and buy my wifie a new FRYPAN as she has wrecked the old one.
Financial freedom to you an yours Brother.
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Post by wei sa on Jul 27, 2016 9:47:18 GMT -5
All koans have concrete answers that, seen in retrospect, are recognized to be obvious. I was doing another forum-search on koans, and came about the above bit from Zendancer. It brought to my mind Stardustpilgrim's earlier comment about not knowing why he had answered a koan correctly and also my experience with the koans ZD sent me via PM. I answered some of them right and some of them wrong. With most of my right answers I wasn't sure they were correct before being verified by ZD and in at least one case I thought my wrong answer would have been right. So even most of the correct answers I have given do not really seem so obvious to me so far. Does this imply that the issue the koan is highlighting hasn't been fully seen through? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 27, 2016 16:26:31 GMT -5
All koans have concrete answers that, seen in retrospect, are recognized to be obvious. I was doing another forum-search on koans, and came about the above bit from Zendancer. It brought to my mind Stardustpilgrim's earlier comment about not knowing why he had answered a koan correctly and also my experience with the koans ZD sent me via PM. I answered some of them right and some of them wrong. With most of my right answers I wasn't sure they were correct before being verified by ZD and in at least one case I thought my wrong answer would have been right. So even most of the correct answers I have given do not really seem so obvious to me so far. Does this imply that the issue the koan is highlighting hasn't been fully seen through? Just to be clear, I knew why I gave the answer I did (on Steve's thread, looked for it, couldn't find it), but I didn't know why it was the right answer. |
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Post by anja on Jul 28, 2016 5:40:32 GMT -5
Is it one of these threads? (If you answer 'the first one' you'll cause an anomaly in the space-time-continuum  ) Those were the only threads I could find on koans, unless it doesn't have "koan" in the title... Haha yeah if the answer comes from outside the mind (e.g. the body) then it could be pretty natural that the mind doesn't understand it. At the same time, if the answer was just a guess, it could also be that the koan wasn't actually seen through. I suppose this is one reason why in the Zen dialogues/interviews the Zen master uses several koans to gauge the student's level of clarity... Yes. Zen Masters use "checking koans" to make sure that a student hasn't been given the answer to a koan, or read an answer to a koan in a book. If, for example, someone correctly answers the Mu koan, he or she can be asked several other checking questions to verify that the answer was authentic and that one's understanding is non-conceptual and rock solid, so to speak. Zendancer, I would like to complain about the koan you have given me ... via the invisible telephone. What is the ciggy-man doing as a non-smoker? Well...I'm a non-smoker for almost four weeks by now. Smoking biddhis (cigarillos) was one of my favourite things in life. That's gone now. And I maybe even loose my master-troll status here because of you, Zendancer. Ah! Forget zen-masters! They are highly overrated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 6:20:42 GMT -5
Yes. Zen Masters use "checking koans" to make sure that a student hasn't been given the answer to a koan, or read an answer to a koan in a book. If, for example, someone correctly answers the Mu koan, he or she can be asked several other checking questions to verify that the answer was authentic and that one's understanding is non-conceptual and rock solid, so to speak. Zendancer, I would like to complain about the koan you have given me ... via the invisible telephone. What is the ciggy-man doing as a non-smoker? Well...I'm a non-smoker for almost four weeks by now. Smoking biddhis (cigarillos) was one of my favourite things in life. That's gone now. And I maybe even loose my master-troll status here because of you, Zendancer. Ah! Forget zen-masters! They are highly overrated. Then how about this one... "Who experiences grief?" I recently came to grief over another matter. The troll status has already been awarded to Me. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 28, 2016 8:51:44 GMT -5
Yes. Zen Masters use "checking koans" to make sure that a student hasn't been given the answer to a koan, or read an answer to a koan in a book. If, for example, someone correctly answers the Mu koan, he or she can be asked several other checking questions to verify that the answer was authentic and that one's understanding is non-conceptual and rock solid, so to speak. Zendancer, I would like to complain about the koan you have given me ... via the invisible telephone. What is the ciggy-man doing as a non-smoker? Well...I'm a non-smoker for almost four weeks by now. Smoking biddhis (cigarillos) was one of my favourite things in life. That's gone now. And I maybe even loose my master-troll status here because of you, Zendancer. Ah! Forget zen-masters! They are highly overrated. Haha! That's why I tell people to trust themselves 100% and to look within. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 28, 2016 9:44:38 GMT -5
All koans have concrete answers that, seen in retrospect, are recognized to be obvious. I was doing another forum-search on koans, and came about the above bit from Zendancer. It brought to my mind Stardustpilgrim's earlier comment about not knowing why he had answered a koan correctly and also my experience with the koans ZD sent me via PM. I answered some of them right and some of them wrong. With most of my right answers I wasn't sure they were correct before being verified by ZD and in at least one case I thought my wrong answer would have been right. So even most of the correct answers I have given do not really seem so obvious to me so far. Does this imply that the issue the koan is highlighting hasn't been fully seen through? I should have written, "All koans have concrete answers that, seen in retrospect, are USUALLY recognized as obvious." LOL. The obviousness is not always the case, and especially when first playing with koans. As one becomes more familiar with how they function and what they can reveal about cultural conditioning, one's clarity concerning the existential issues increases. Sometimes seeing through a koan can be startling and powerful, while at other times it can be far more subtle. When I first went to some Zen interviews, I became enthusiastic because I realized that our usual interaction with reality is with a somewhat surreal mixture of ideas and direct sensory perception, and koans offered a way of becoming free of various culturally-induced cognitive illusions. One comes to rely upon the body's direct knowing and intuition to understand (gnosis) rather than a primarily INdirect kind of knowing through the intellect. As adults, we become so habituated to interacting with ideas rather than isness that we rarely "get out of our heads." Koans are one way of getting us started on a path of being rather than remaining as separate observers. Many intellectuals are attracted to koans because they intuit that their favored kind of head-knowing is much less powerful than body-knowing. |
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Post by anja on Jul 28, 2016 15:38:43 GMT -5
Zendancer, I would like to complain about the koan you have given me ... via the invisible telephone. What is the ciggy-man doing as a non-smoker? Well...I'm a non-smoker for almost four weeks by now. Smoking biddhis (cigarillos) was one of my favourite things in life. That's gone now. And I maybe even loose my master-troll status here because of you, Zendancer. Ah! Forget zen-masters! They are highly overrated. Haha! That's why I tell people to trust themselves 100% and to look within. Wanna share a face-palm with me? Or maybe a cuban cigar? Or both? Or neither? |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 28, 2016 16:11:37 GMT -5
Haha! That's why I tell people to trust themselves 100% and to look within. Wanna share a face-palm with me? Or maybe a cuban cigar? Or both? Or neither? I'll take the face-palm. LOL. It's always fun playing the fool. |
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Post by anja on Jul 28, 2016 17:25:45 GMT -5
Wanna share a face-palm with me? Or maybe a cuban cigar? Or both? Or neither? I'll take the face-palm. LOL. It's always fun playing the fool. In my world, dear Zendancer, to reject the offer to smoke a cuban cigar is considered as some sort of an insult. But I forgive you, of course. Just sayin'.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 0:47:18 GMT -5
I'll take the face-palm. LOL. It's always fun playing the fool. In my world, dear Zendancer, to reject the offer to smoke a cuban cigar is considered as some sort of an insult. But I forgive you, of course. Just sayin'.... holy... I cannot do nicotine as my body convulses... Hot pools are fine. |
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Post by wei sa on Jul 29, 2016 11:19:13 GMT -5
I was doing another forum-search on koans, and came about the above bit from Zendancer. It brought to my mind Stardustpilgrim's earlier comment about not knowing why he had answered a koan correctly and also my experience with the koans ZD sent me via PM. I answered some of them right and some of them wrong. With most of my right answers I wasn't sure they were correct before being verified by ZD and in at least one case I thought my wrong answer would have been right. So even most of the correct answers I have given do not really seem so obvious to me so far. Does this imply that the issue the koan is highlighting hasn't been fully seen through? I should have written, "All koans have concrete answers that, seen in retrospect, are USUALLY recognized as obvious." LOL. The obviousness is not always the case, and especially when first playing with koans. As one becomes more familiar with how they function and what they can reveal about cultural conditioning, one's clarity concerning the existential issues increases. Sometimes seeing through a koan can be startling and powerful, while at other times it can be far more subtle. When I first went to some Zen interviews, I became enthusiastic because I realized that our usual interaction with reality is with a somewhat surreal mixture of ideas and direct sensory perception, and koans offered a way of becoming free of various culturally-induced cognitive illusions. One comes to rely upon the body's direct knowing and intuition to understand (gnosis) rather than a primarily INdirect kind of knowing through the intellect. As adults, we become so habituated to interacting with ideas rather than isness that we rarely "get out of our heads." Koans are one way of getting us started on a path of being rather than remaining as separate observers. Many intellectuals are attracted to koans because they intuit that their favored kind of head-knowing is much less powerful than body-knowing. Haha yeah I suppose I was being a bit over-pedantic there - probably not the most useful mindset for trying to penetrate this koan-thing. I can resonate with your last sentence - I too have been indulging in my "favored kind of head-knowing" for a long time while at the same time intuiting on some level that something was "off". Philosophy was perhaps my main subject in high school, but I chose to not pursue it in university as something felt a bit weird about that whole culture. Instead I pursued musical composition and was always ranting about the "enigmatic" or "ineffable" there, while still being pretty firmly stuck in my head (doing a bit of meditation didn't seem to have much effect). Strange how long it took for a more serious engagement with the potential of "no-mind" to take off, but at least all that time has built a fairly intense hunger... |
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Post by anja on Jul 31, 2016 15:14:33 GMT -5
In my world, dear Zendancer, to reject the offer to smoke a cuban cigar is considered as some sort of an insult. But I forgive you, of course. Just sayin'.... holy... I cannot do nicotine as my body convulses... Hot pools are fine. The emphazis was on cuban....not on cigar. There is no need to inhale the smoke. Although I do. |
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