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Post by wei sa on Jul 22, 2016 11:04:16 GMT -5
I've seen Zendancer mention koans a couple of times in different threads, but there doesn't seem to have been a proper thread about them - so here's one. Anyway, I've been getting interested in koans recently. I'm fairly addicted to thinking and as I understand it koans can be useful in giving that habit a good kick. I also find that they have an interesting connection with self-inquiry, because to me existential questions - such as "who am I?" - seem like kind of koans. Learning to look for answers from outside the thinking mind should in any case be a useful thing. However, I've found it difficult to get into koans on my own, so I'm kind of looking to be shown the ropes. I've been skimming some classic koan texts - like The Blue Cliff Record - but they've seemed pretty impenetrable so far. Even the whole form of B.C.R. confuses me - in each chapter first there's a "pointer", then the "case" - which I understand to be the actual koan - then "notes" on the case, "commentary" on the case, a poetic "verse" on the case, and finally a "commentary" on the verse.  Maybe B.C.R is not really a good way to get into this whole koan thing!  Anyway, how could one get into "koan study" and start using it as part of self-inquiry? Are there some books or apps etc that could be useful, or is it something that really requires a face-to-face dialogue with a Zen master? |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 22, 2016 12:50:03 GMT -5
I've seen Zendancer mention koans a couple of times in different threads, but there doesn't seem to have been a proper thread about them - so here's one. Anyway, I've been getting interested in koans recently. I'm fairly addicted to thinking and as I understand it koans can be useful in giving that habit a good kick. I also find that they have an interesting connection with self-inquiry, because to me existential questions - such as "who am I?" - seem like kind of koans. Learning to look for answers from outside the thinking mind should in any case be a useful thing. However, I've found it difficult to get into koans on my own, so I'm kind of looking to be shown the ropes. I've been skimming some classic koan texts - like The Blue Cliff Record - but they've seemed pretty impenetrable so far. Even the whole form of B.C.R. confuses me - in each chapter first there's a "pointer", then the "case" - which I understand to be the actual koan - then "notes" on the case, "commentary" on the case, a poetic "verse" on the case, and finally a "commentary" on the verse. Maybe B.C.R is not really a good way to get into this whole koan thing! Anyway, how could one get into "koan study" and start using it as part of self-inquiry? Are there some books or apps etc that could be useful, or is it something that really requires a face-to-face dialogue with a Zen master? Hi Visa: The BCR is a difficult approach to koans, and I wouldn't recommend it. In the Zen traditions that use koans, there are some simple introductory explanations that help people understand how they work. Usually, a teacher will say to a student, "When you come to this interview room, you must leave your thinking-mind behind, and let intuition and direct seeing answer the koans." She will then ask a beginning student some easy public koans that almost anyone can penetrate relatively quickly. For example, "It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game, and the bases were loaded. The batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why?" The answer? Because two female baseball teams were playing the game. LOL. Koans contain unexamined assumptions, and they seem puzzling because of habitual thinking patterns "caused" by cultural conditioning. There are many similar koans that deal with traditional thinking patterns about the roles of males and females, and when these kinds of koans are penetrated through contemplation, a certain degree of freedom from those patterns is attained. The baseball-game koan is answered with words, but many koans are answered in silence using a physical action. The goal is to "see through" the words to the underlying issue that the koan is designed to explicate. Koans are seen through instantaneously, and they involve realizations. If one thinks about koans, the answers will not appear. Most koans involve minor realizations, but the resolution of some koans involve major realizations that can result in huge transformations in understanding. The resolution of the "Who am I, Really?" koan can literally be earth shattering, and it can change one's entire paradigm. IMO the best koans are the ones that arise in one's personal life. "What should I do (in a given situation)?" "Should I stay with my lover or leave?" "What do I really want?" etc. etc. After resolving some simple koans through contemplation, one acquires confidence that ANY existential question can be resolved through contemplation, and this helps one realize that all of the answers one might wish to resolve are within oneself. There are about 2000 formal koans used in the Rinzai tradition of Zen. A formal koan is a koan that is not discussed in public. All of the koans in the BCR are formal, and many of them require a lot of contemplation to see through. Koans become a lot more fun after a certain degree of mastery is attained because a student can thereby acquire enough insight to challenge a teacher's understanding. Koan combat is a kind of existential playfulness in which each individual challenges the other. Layman P'ang was an enlightened Chinese sage who wandered around engaging various Zen Masters and other sages in koan combat. Reading their dialogues is mind-boggling because of the level at which they are poking each other. I doubt that many people would understand any of the dialogues. FWIW, I first read a book about ZM Rinzai 30 years ago. Upon a first reading I may have understood one or two interactions the guy had with people. As the years went by, I understood more and more of the interactions, and today I understand almost all of them. Some of them are very funny. The book, "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha," illustrates how a Zen Master uses koans when interacting with students, so you might it interesting. I'll send you a PM that will explain some things that can't be explained in public. Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 14:53:53 GMT -5
"It was the bottom of the ninth inning in a baseball game, and the bases were loaded. The batter hit a home run.." AKA - a walk off home run  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 22, 2016 15:41:11 GMT -5
visa, I've read a lot of koans over the years. (I like Albert Low on koans). I've never gotten too interested in trying to solve any, it seems like it would be too frustrating. I finally ?solved? the sound of one hand clapping a few years ago, but I don't know if it is solved, I just have an answer, never had anybody to answer to. Maybe a couple of years ago here, Steve started a thread on koans. I read it, just read it, didn't reflect at all, just answered it, 3 words. He replied back by PM, said, yes, that's exactly precisely correct. I said, well then that must be an easy koan. He said, no, hard koan. And I said (to myself: WTF?) So then ZD posted on the thread, STEVE!! answers need to be done by PM. (he didn't do it exactly like that, just said, might be a good idea to have people answer by PM, [more or less], but I got the point). So I decided to deleted my answer. Later ZD gave a koan, to be answered via PM, I did, he said, yea, correct.
I've answered maybe a couple more for myself by myself. I think some of it comes from reading (koans) for years, but deliberately not trying to answer (because I figured out the conceptualizing mind isn't what answers, and it was like, OK then, who/what (TF) answers).
Anyway, my $.02 worth. (The one I answered to ZD, I figured I had the answer, it was pretty-much obvious. The one I answered to Steve, I still don't know why I got it right, but I don't know if it's a good thing (that) I don't know (how I got it right) or a bad thing (that I don't know how I got it right); I don't know. But I figure it must be a ~bad~ thing, since I don't know why I answered correctly. ....OK, but that's probably an example of the mind that has to be ~thrown out~....so...stopping now).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 23:33:11 GMT -5
I've seen Zendancer mention koans a couple of times in different threads, but there doesn't seem to have been a proper thread about them - so here's one. Anyway, I've been getting interested in koans recently. I'm fairly addicted to thinking and as I understand it koans can be useful in giving that habit a good kick. I also find that they have an interesting connection with self-inquiry, because to me existential questions - such as "who am I?" - seem like kind of koans. Learning to look for answers from outside the thinking mind should in any case be a useful thing. However, I've found it difficult to get into koans on my own, so I'm kind of looking to be shown the ropes. I've been skimming some classic koan texts - like The Blue Cliff Record - but they've seemed pretty impenetrable so far. Even the whole form of B.C.R. confuses me - in each chapter first there's a "pointer", then the "case" - which I understand to be the actual koan - then "notes" on the case, "commentary" on the case, a poetic "verse" on the case, and finally a "commentary" on the verse. Maybe B.C.R is not really a good way to get into this whole koan thing! Anyway, how could one get into "koan study" and start using it as part of self-inquiry? Are there some books or apps etc that could be useful, or is it something that really requires a face-to-face dialogue with a Zen master? STARTing simple, "How old is Buddha?" |
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Post by wei sa on Jul 23, 2016 11:12:35 GMT -5
Koans are seen through instantaneously, and they involve realizations. If one thinks about koans, the answers will not appear. [...] All of the koans in the BCR are formal, and many of them require a lot of contemplation to see through. Thanks for the explanation ZD! I suppose with this you don't mean that they are seen through immediately upon being encountered, but when they are seen, the seeing is instantaneous as opposed to a gradual working through? And this also raises the question of what do people actually mean with the terms "koan concentration" and "koan contemplation"? If thinking is not up to the task, then clearly it cannot be the kind of contemplation that happens through verbal thought. In koan contemplation/concentration do people then just periodically mentally repeat the koan and then try to enter into a thoughtless meditative state and see if an answer comes up by its own accord? It seems to me that many of these simpler koans, such as the baseball-game koan or the father/son/neurosurgeon-koan (which I bumped into by searching these forums about this topic) can still be solved through intellectual thought, but then when the game is stepped up a notch that probably no longer works... Cheers, I'll check it out! |
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Post by wei sa on Jul 23, 2016 11:24:38 GMT -5
Maybe a couple of years ago here, Steve started a thread on koans. I read it, just read it, didn't reflect at all, just answered it, 3 words. He replied back by PM, said, yes, that's exactly precisely correct. Is it one of these threads? (If you answer 'the first one' you'll cause an anomaly in the space-time-continuum ) Those were the only threads I could find on koans, unless it doesn't have "koan" in the title... Haha yeah if the answer comes from outside the mind (e.g. the body) then it could be pretty natural that the mind doesn't understand it. At the same time, if the answer was just a guess, it could also be that the koan wasn't actually seen through. I suppose this is one reason why in the Zen dialogues/interviews the Zen master uses several koans to gauge the student's level of clarity... |
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Post by wei sa on Jul 23, 2016 11:28:35 GMT -5
STARTing simple, "How old is Buddha?" Thanks, I'll answer this (and other koans someone might ask here) via pm in case I accidentally get it right... |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 23, 2016 12:00:04 GMT -5
Koans are seen through instantaneously, and they involve realizations. If one thinks about koans, the answers will not appear. [...] All of the koans in the BCR are formal, and many of them require a lot of contemplation to see through. Thanks for the explanation ZD! I suppose with this you don't mean that they are seen through immediately upon being encountered, but when they are seen, the seeing is instantaneous as opposed to a gradual working through? And this also raises the question of what do people actually mean with the terms "koan concentration" and "koan contemplation"? If thinking is not up to the task, then clearly it cannot be the kind of contemplation that happens through verbal thought. In koan contemplation/concentration do people then just periodically mentally repeat the koan and then try to enter into a thoughtless meditative state and see if an answer comes up by its own accord? It seems to me that many of these simpler koans, such as the baseball-game koan or the father/son/neurosurgeon-koan (which I bumped into by searching these forums about this topic) can still be solved through intellectual thought, but then when the game is stepped up a notch that probably no longer works... Cheers, I'll check it out! Yes. A koan whose resolution is unknown is first repeated verbally, and is thought about. Then, one simply enters a thoughtless meditative state to see if an answer will appear. Sometimes an answer will immediately become obvious, and sometimes it's necessary to bear a koan in mind for an extended period of time before an answer arises. When tackling extremely difficult koans, such as the "mu" koan or the "who am I, really" koan, several years of contemplation may be required before the obvious answer appears. Interestingly, several Zen Masters have reported that following huge CC experiences, hundreds of famous koans became reduced to child's play, and the answers became immediately obvious. One monk contemplated the Mu koan for several years and then gave up. He left his monastery thinking that he was a total failure. He took a menial job, and continued periodically contemplating that one koan. Several years later, he swept a pebble against a bamboo fence, and when he heard that sound, it triggered a big experience. Not only did he realize the answer to the Mu koan, but also the answers to virtually all of the other formal Zen koans. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 23, 2016 12:04:18 GMT -5
Maybe a couple of years ago here, Steve started a thread on koans. I read it, just read it, didn't reflect at all, just answered it, 3 words. He replied back by PM, said, yes, that's exactly precisely correct. Is it one of these threads? (If you answer 'the first one' you'll cause an anomaly in the space-time-continuum ) Those were the only threads I could find on koans, unless it doesn't have "koan" in the title... Haha yeah if the answer comes from outside the mind (e.g. the body) then it could be pretty natural that the mind doesn't understand it. At the same time, if the answer was just a guess, it could also be that the koan wasn't actually seen through. I suppose this is one reason why in the Zen dialogues/interviews the Zen master uses several koans to gauge the student's level of clarity... Yes. Zen Masters use "checking koans" to make sure that a student hasn't been given the answer to a koan, or read an answer to a koan in a book. If, for example, someone correctly answers the Mu koan, he or she can be asked several other checking questions to verify that the answer was authentic and that one's understanding is non-conceptual and rock solid, so to speak. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 18:31:54 GMT -5
Not all Masters would use a Book surely ZD.
Fake students are many true... but wouldnt it be true to say the Book is best for Fake Roshis?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 24, 2016 2:52:39 GMT -5
Not all Masters would use a Book surely ZD. Fake students are many true... but wouldnt it be true to say the Book is best for Fake Roshis? Reading the answer to a koan in a book is not the same as resolving a koan for oneself. A few spoil sports have written books containing answers to koans, so roshis have to make sure that students' answers are authentic. The only books that roshis use are books like The Blue Cliff Record that simply list the famous koans with commentaries. Those books do not contain answers to the koans. Koans are just a methodology for stopping the mind, so that realizations can occur. The value of Ramana's "Who am I?" koan is that it puts one into a don't-know state of mind until a different, deeper, and direct kind of knowing (gnosis) occurs. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2016 4:28:10 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be better to create a Koan from that very first meeting for the student, based on how they presented themselves, turning the door knob and stepping into the same room the Roshi were in?
I have heard about the Books but never felt the need to investigate, being an intuitive sort of human, as I am aware how, when mind reads... it has the capacity to re-create and i didn't want to fool myself into belief, seeing that belief is a problem in our shared world.
Your sincere friend.
alfio
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Post by zendancer on Jul 24, 2016 8:15:22 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be better to create a Koan from that very first meeting for the student, based on how they presented themselves, turning the door knob and stepping into the same room the Roshi were in? I have heard about the Books but never felt the need to investigate, being an intuitive sort of human, as I am aware how, when mind reads... it has the capacity to re-create and i didn't want to fool myself into belief, seeing that belief is a problem in our shared world. Your sincere friend. alfio As I noted earlier, koans are simply a way of helping people shift their attention away from thoughts to what is actual. It helps people realize that the body is incredibly intelligent, and that reflective verbal chatter is not necessary for interacting with reality. Koans are a way of showing people that all of the answers to their questions lie within themselves, and they help people develop confidence in their ability to find those answers. The usual approach is to explain how koans work, ask some simple koans, discuss them, and thereby allow a student to discover the value in utilizing intuition rather than the intellect in resolving problems created by reflective thinking. The resolution of some simple initial koans shows the student how conditioning is a major component in how the body/mind relates to the world, and shows that there is a way to attain freedom from conditioning. There's no need to create a special koan for a particular student because there are thousands of well-known existing koans that can be used for purposes of education. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 24, 2016 19:10:43 GMT -5
koans are sublime and befuddle the mind and the answers will always appear out of time. |
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Maybe B.C.R is not really a good way to get into this whole koan thing! 
