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Post by inavalan on Mar 26, 2023 14:59:23 GMT -5
Very often, almost at every talk, G. returned to the absence of unity in man ... Interesting view. To me, it seems an inutile speculation. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 26, 2023 15:06:11 GMT -5
Very often, almost at every talk, G. returned to the absence of unity in man ... Interesting view. To me, it seems an inutile speculation. Taken to extreme, usually as a result of very brutal severe child abuse, it shows up in people as Multiple Personality Disorder. (That's just my opinion). But the point is for ZD, it shows he is correct in that a self is imaginary. I've been waiting, like 14 years, to be able to share this. |
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Post by inavalan on Mar 26, 2023 15:37:50 GMT -5
Interesting view. To me, it seems an inutile speculation. Taken to extreme, usually as a result of very brutal severe child abuse, it shows up in people as Multiple Personality Disorder. (That's just my opinion). But the point is for ZD, it shows he is correct in that a self is imaginary. I've been waiting, like 14 years, to be able to share this. I'll back off from this discussion.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 26, 2023 15:51:14 GMT -5
Taken to extreme, usually as a result of very brutal severe child abuse, it shows up in people as Multiple Personality Disorder. (That's just my opinion). But the point is for ZD, it shows he is correct in that a self is imaginary. I've been waiting, like 14 years, to be able to share this. I'll back off from this discussion. Well, no guarantee he will see it. To ZD, sdp is flea on tail of donkey. Very first post on this thread was also for ZD. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Mar 26, 2023 16:17:10 GMT -5
......he delivered a lengthy harangue which he brought to an abrupt close with the following categorical declaration: 'The earth is too small for both of us; hence one of us must die'. On hearing this bombastic tirade I wanted to knock this nonsense right out of his head. .....After a lengthy dispute...which at times developed into a deafening din and brought us perilously near to throwing each other down from the top of the bell-tower--it was decided that we must fight a duel. Then the question arose, where to obtain weapons? .........While we were sitting pondering on what was to be done, he suddenly chirped up and exclaimed: 'If it's difficult to get pistols, it's easy to get cannon'. Everybody laughed.... What are you laughing at, you silly devils!' he retorted. 'It's possible to use cannon for your purpose. There's only one drawback. You've decided that one of you must die, but in a duel cannon both of you might die'. What he proposed was that we should both go to the artillery range where firing practice was held, lie down and hide somewhere between the guns and the targets and await our doom. Whichever of us should be hit by a random shell would be the one fated to die. ......it was categorically decided by all present to carry out this project the very next day. ......The next morning at break of day the whole party of us, supplied with provisions, made our way to the Kars Chai. ...we lay down in separate hollows. So far everything seemed rather a joke, but when the firing began it was anything but a joke. .....I do know what proceeded in me as soon as the firing started. What I experienced and felt when the shells began to fire and burst over my head, I remember now as if it were only yesterday. At the beginning I was completely stupefied, but soon the intensity of feeling which flooded through me, and the force of logical confrontation of my thought increased to such an extent, that, at each moment, I thought and experienced more than during an entire twelvemonth. Simultaneously, there arose in me for the first time the 'whole sensation of myself', which grew stronger and stronger, and a clear realization that through my thoughtlessness I had put myself in a situation of almost certain annihilation, because at that moment my death seemed inevitable. Instinctive fear in the face of this inevitability so took possession of my entire being that surrounding realities seemed to disappear, leaving only an unconquerable living terror. I remember I tried to make myself as small as possible and to take shelter behind a ridge in the ground, so as to hear nothing and think about nothing. The trembling which began in the whole of my body reached such a frightful intensity that is was as if each tissue vibrated independently, and, in spite of the roaring guns, I very distinctly heard the beating of my heart, and my teeth chattered so hard that it seemed as if at any moment they would break. ....I began to grow accustomed to my ordeal.... Little by little the tormenting thoughts of the possibility of my sad end began to disappear. Although as usual the firing was broken up into several periods, it was impossible to escape during the intervals, chiefly because of the danger of falling into the hands of the guards. There was nothing to be done but to keep lying there quietly. After eating some lunch I even, without knowing it, fell asleep. Evidently the nervous system, after such intensive activity, urgently demanded rest. I do not know how long I slept, but when I woke up it was already evening and everything was quiet. .........I suddenly remembered and began to feel concerned about my comrade in misfortune. ...Seeing him lying there motionless, I was very frightened...when I suddenly noticed blood on his leg, I completely lost my head, and all the hatred of the day before turned to pity. ...he was breathing... As soon as Karpenko came to, he looked around at everyone present; and when, resting his gaze on me longer than on the others, he smiled, something moved within me and I was overcome with remorse and pity. From that moment I began to feel towards him as towards a brother. pages 202-207, Meetings With Remarkable Men, GI Gurdjieff, 1969 His age at this incident is not given, but I surmised he was about 12 or 13 at the time. Written about herein, above, this is Gurdjieff's first experience of self-remembering, spontaneous and accidental, probably from the extreme circumstances. I'm quite sure this made such an impression on him that it was a major factor which propelled him on his search, to find out the why, and how to bring it again. He found his answers, and passed them on, to us. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 9, 2023 15:32:35 GMT -5
Question: In a different state of consciousness, would we be susceptible to vibrations which ordinarily do not reach us?
Beryl Pogson: Dr. Nicoll used to say, 'If you could only realize what this room contains.' These vibrations come through this room, but who has the apparatus to receive them? If your centers are open to vibrations of higher centers, then these influences can reach you; the energy is so fine that you see the universe transformed.
The mind tells us about this possibility. Otherwise we would not recognize what is happening. Have you had experiences and not known what to make of them? The universe is a universe of vibrations and it depends upon what vibrations we are open to.
We speak in the Christian tradition of the communion of saints and in the Work we speak of the minds of the conscious circle of humanity; this can only happen in the deeper parts of centers.
Man's mind has developed to the point where the universe can be in him. He carries the universe in his mind, and what he carries depends upon the extent to which he has been able to make connections, what he can understand. As the psychological mind expands it can be nourished from greater mind. This is a wonderful thought: at any moment you can receive from greater mind.
You will remember how much Dr. Nicoll talked about what is wrong with the mind - attitudes, hard places, all the mechanical inner talking and so on. One has to leave those parts of the mind and go to a deeper place, a place of stillness. You can't go straight into this place from small, everyday thoughts and feelings first. People often try to do this in the midst of their everyday thoughts and wonder why they cannot.
Question: Is the technique of stopping thoughts a way to do this?
Beryl Pogson: You can do that for a short time, and it's useful in its own way, but if you want to be in a still place where you can receive from higher centers you have to go through deeper thoughts. Stopping thoughts is a way of starting; it is possible to stop the stream and rest from it. Then you must think, 'Where do I want to be?' You find your own way of moving inwards. You know certain thoughts that lead to certain states; there is a way for everyone, it is a question of further and further back. The secret is to go more and more deeply into attention.
In Living Time Dr. Nicoll reminds us that it is said in the Hermetica and in the Gospels that man is made free by truth, and Dr. Nicoll equates truth with mind. It is only from the psychological mind that is is possible to apprehend the idea of eternity, the idea of living time. Through the mind one knows what is possible and through the energy of consciousness it is possible to reach another state. What is above (see the Carl Sagan Flatland video, note sdp), is a place of stillness. In eternity there is stillness, so it is only in stillness that we can really touch eternity. You have to be outside time.
Question: I do not have certain knowledge that there is a higher level within me.
Beryl Pogson: If you begin to think of the idea of a higher level this will prepare the way; holding these ideas in mind is preparing the way; that is how it begins. If you shut your mind and say, 'I haven't certain knowledge of a higher level within me so this does not apply to me; I cannot connect with this idea,' you are shutting out the possibility. The other way is to hold these ideas in your mind and be open to them. It will come if you are open to it but not if you dismiss the idea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is always accepted, here, that interior practice is obligatory, yet freely chosen without coercion. note sdp.
from: Mind and Energy, Complied from Meeting Notes (of Beryl Pogson's meetings, the 1950's-1960's) by Bob Hunter, 2021, Eureka Editions
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 25, 2023 8:08:20 GMT -5
Why don't we have the Third Series we were told we would have in the Second Series? This used to bother me. I even suspected many years ago that there was a secret Third Series, hidden away. There's not. So why didn't Gurdjieff finish the Third Series? We are told why. He set himself a date to be finished by, it seems that was a firm decision. I'm writing this without dates and sources. So when that date ended, he stopped in midsentence right where he was. We would not have the Beelzebub's Tales we do if it were not for a team. Orage was the vital member, besides Gurdjieff himself. Orage was a writer and editor, he gave up his magazine, The New Age, to go and study with Gurdjieff at the Prieure. He was tested and given work contrary to his nature, in the beginning, just like everyone else. He dug ditches, for a while. After the automobile accident, when Gurdjieff decided to become a writer, when he began he could not write himself, so he dictated to Madame de Hartmann. Orage took the original draft and turned it into English. And then Gurdjieff read it and they finetuned it (for years even, to bury the dog deeper). Later, when Orage had taken in the teaching, he was given New York, the students. Gurdjieff was very good at lighting sticks of dynamite and shaking things up. So years later, when Gurdjieff came to visit, we are told in the Third Series that something was amiss with the groups of Orage in NY. Gurdjieff forced a decision out of the members, would they be loyal to Orage, or would they be loyal to Gurdjieff? They had to sign a pledge never to have anything to do with Orage again. Some signed without hesitation, some "sweat Bullets". So what did Orage do? He signed the pledge too, which said he would never have anything to do with Orage, again. I'm sure it was hard to surprise Gurdjieff, that might have surprised him. But Orage got advanced that day, he advanced himself. In all the writings Gurdjieff only mentioned one student, my close friend, Mr. Orage. Now, Orage had some health issues, it was probably the late '20's, thereabouts. Gurdjieff advised him how to take care of his health issues, by intentional suffering. Romance had also entered the scene, Orage and Jessie Dwight had fallen in love, got married, so now Orage's dedication was split. In the '30's Gurdjieff was meeting his own self-imposed deadline for finishing the Third Series. Then he heard the news, Orage had died. He was stricken with grief, and interruptions, and "for two months...I was not able to add a single word to what I had written up to half-past eleven that morning", he could not focus to work on the Third Series. "I calculated that simultaneously with the completion at the predetermined time limit of all the tasks I had set myself, I would have completed this last book...I was, nevertheless, unable to do so". (Quotes from Life is Real, I did check myself, somewhat). When the deadline that he had set for himself, came, he stopped in midsentence. But because of all this, do we not have the Third Series Gurdjieff intended for us to have? No, we have exactly what Gurdjieff intended. What's the Third Series about? It's about making a Third World, in oneself. Given, is the outer world. Given, is our inner world. Gurdjieff said these two worlds do not meet, that we have to make an intentional contact between the outer world and our inner world, and thus we have the possibility of forming our own inner world, the world of the soul. So, as we are taught, the soul is not given by Mother Nature, we only have a soul in embryo. So why was not the Third Series finished, why do we not have the book promised in Meetings With Remarkable Men? The journey is interior. We are in a real sense building a ladder to a higher dimension, the world above us. And, like everything else in the universe, we have these intervals, mi-fa and si-do, in an ascending octave. We come to these gaps, and we have to construct the next rung on the ladder to go higher. That's what the Third Series is about. It's unfinished because we are unfinished. We don't have the book promised in MWRM because we have to construct the book ourselves, because, Life Is Real Only Then, When "I Am". The teaching is given in fragments, deliberately. It was not meant to be systematized. We have to finish the teaching, in ourselves, through understanding. And then we have to refuse to rob others the same privilege for themselves. We get what we need, if we work. We will always come to these intervals, and the only way to keep the teaching straight, to keep the path straight, is through conscious labors and voluntary and then intentional suffering. We always have to be self-correcting, there is no GPS which will tell us, rerouting. That's why the Third Series was never finished, but was perfectly finished. But then, now I have robbed you of this discovery. But, there will be many trips back to zero, other trips. We have to learn to "fail better". modjourn.org/general-introduction-to-the-new-age-1907-1922-by-scholes-robert/ |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 18, 2023 17:23:40 GMT -5
I asked ChatGPT (Open AI): Can you summarize Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson by GI Gurdjieff.
"Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson" is a philosophical novel written by G.I. Gurdjieff. It follows the character Beelzebub, who recounts his adventures and teachings to his grandson. The book explores various aspects of human existence and consciousness, discussing topics such as the nature of man, the universe, and the interconnectedness of all things. Gurdjieff presents his ideas through allegorical stories, anecdotes, and metaphysical concepts, aiming to provoke self-reflection and a deeper understanding of life's mysteries.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 18, 2023 17:29:44 GMT -5
I asked ChatGPT Open AI:
Can you summarize The Fourth Way as taught by GI Gurdjieff.
ChatGPT
The Fourth Way is a system of spiritual development and self-transformation taught by G.I. Gurdjieff. It is designed to help individuals awaken to a higher level of consciousness and achieve self-realization while living in the modern world. The Fourth Way emphasizes the integration of body, mind, and emotions as essential components of spiritual growth.
Unlike traditional spiritual paths, the Fourth Way does not advocate retreat from society or reliance on religious doctrines. Instead, it proposes that individuals can attain spiritual awakening through self-observation, self-discipline, and conscious effort in their daily lives. It encourages individuals to develop self-awareness, overcome mechanical behaviors, and strive for a state of "self-remembering" where one is fully present and conscious.
Central to the Fourth Way is the recognition of humanity's ordinary state of "waking sleep" and the need to transcend this state by developing higher levels of consciousness. Gurdjieff emphasized the importance of self-observation, in which individuals objectively observe their thoughts, emotions, and actions without judgment or identification. By cultivating self-awareness, individuals can begin to recognize their mechanical patterns, identify their false sense of identity, and strive for inner transformation.
The Fourth Way also emphasizes the value of group work and collaboration. Gurdjieff believed that individuals can support each other's efforts and accelerate their spiritual development through shared practices, discussions, and exchange of knowledge.
Overall, the Fourth Way is a path that encourages individuals to actively engage with their lives, awaken to their true nature, and strive for inner transformation in the midst of ordinary existence.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 24, 2023 14:04:17 GMT -5
As you can see I started this thread in 2015. In the first post Gurdjieff writes about the overall unity of all that exists, and that everything in the universe is one... It seems that only a few here (ST's) get that there is significant differentiation in Wholeness, that I can be a non-dualist, but only with qualification, that there are significant 'reasons' for ~separation~. I'll try to give some quotes as further explanation. edit: The bold concerns the Whole, and that in relation to man, emphasis sdp. Glimpses of Truth, excerpts: ...I will refer to the formula you know from the Emerald Tablets: 'As above, so below'. It is easy to start to build the foundation of our discussion from this. ...Truth speaks for itself in whatever form it is manifested. You will understand this fully only in the course of time, but I wish to give to you today at least a grain of understanding. ...I begin with the formula because I am speaking to you. I know you have tried to decipher this formula. I know that you 'understand' it. But the understanding you have now is only a dim and distant reflection of the divine brilliance. ...we will only take it as a starting point for our discussion. And to give you an idea of our subject, I may say that I wish to speak about the overall unity of all that exists--about unity in multiplicity. ...I know you understand about the unity of the laws governing the universe, but this understanding is speculative--or rather is theoretical. It is not enough to understand with the mind, it is necessary to feel with your being the absolute truth and immutability of this fact; only then you will be able, consciously and with conviction, to say 'I know'. .. ..We started with man, and where is he? But great, and all-embracing is the law of unity. Everything in the universe is one, the difference is only one of scale; in the infinity small we shall find the same laws as in the infinitely great. As above, so below. ... Again I repeat, all in the world is one; and since reason is also one, human reason forms a powerful instrument for investigation. ... ...No ordinary reason is enough to enable a man to take the Great Knowledge to himself, and make it his inalienable possession. Nevertheless it is possible for him. But first he must shake the dust from his feet. ...You see, Mr. Gurdjieff went on, that he who possess a full and complete understanding of the system of octaves, as it might be called, possesses the key to the understanding of Unity, since he understands all that is seen--all happenings, all things in their essence--for he knows there place, cause and effect. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2023 8:25:52 GMT -5
“There are two struggles: an Inner-world struggle and an Outer-world struggle...you must make an intentional contact between these two worlds; then you can crystallize data for the Third World, the World of the Soul.”
- George Gurdjieff.
Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo. — G.I. Gurdjieff
“The energy spent on active inner work is then and there transformed into a fresh supply, but that spent on passive work is lost forever.”
- George Gurdjieff.
“The highest that a man can attain is to be able to do.”
- George Gurdjieff.
Time in itself does not exist, there is only the totality of the results issuing from all the cosmic phenomena present in a given place. — G.I. Gurdjieff
Every grown-up man consists wholly of habits, although he is often unaware of it and even denies having any habits at all. — G.I. Gurdjieff
What is possible for individual man is impossible for the masses. — G.I. Gurdjieff
Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. — G.I. Gurdjieff
It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. — G.I. Gurdjieff
Believe nothing, not even yourself. — G.I. Gurdjieff
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2023 9:05:35 GMT -5
My way is to develop the hidden potentialities of man; a way that is against Nature and against God. — G.I. Gurdjieff
The one great art is that of making a complete human being of oneself. — G.I. Gurdjieff
I ask you to believe nothing that you cannot verify for yourself. — G.I. Gurdjieff
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2023 11:04:26 GMT -5
From Nicoll's Commentaries (Ideas from Gurdjieff, and then Nicoll commented on them) Vol 3 ...denotes parts skipped. Bold for emphasis by sdp.
page 1178
Great Amwell House, June 12, 1948 SELF-TRANSFORMATION WORK-IDEA This Work teaches that Man is born incomplete, unfinished. But he is born as a self-developing organism. That is, he can complete himself. The Work is about how a man can complete himself. Man can transform himself and so complete himself. COMMENTARY What is this Work about? ...
The mediaeval alchemist spoke much about the transformation of the element lead into the element gold. I believe that this is possible in atomic chemistry to-day. But of course what the real alchemists meant was the transformation of mechanical Man, symbolized by lead, into Conscious Man, symbolized by gold. Now having played with our first set of toys and then with our second set of toys, a man, a woman, coming as it were to the end of meaning, may wish for something that is not playing with childish or adult toys. But, let me add, unless you have been through playing with some adult toys and learning the game, you cannot proceed further. We have all to go through the stage of adult toys—that is, having real babies, or being real soldiers, etc., or taking up a career, and, in short, doing your job in life. This stage corresponds to what the Work calls "level of Good Householder". And you will remember that this Work is not for those who have done nothing. It is not for tramps or lunatics. It is for those who have been responsible, who have done some job or other in life, and who have gained some wisdom from contact with life—that is, who realize that in life you cannot have your own way and that life is a second force or force of resistance to what in your phantasy you wish to attain to without any effort. Gurdjieff said: "If a man knows how to make coffee, to such a man I can speak." ...
That is, all people, high or low, are under the same laws. I will pass now from the idea of Good Householder to the further definition used in the Work concerning the Good Householder who no longer believes in life. This refers to a man, a woman, who have been through all that they have, as it were, taken on their shoulders—for remember, in Organic Life every living thing has to make effort—and have begun to think something like this : "Is there anything beyond this life? Is there anything I can find beyond what, as Good Householder, I feel it my duty to follow?" We spoke just now of scientists transforming the atom and so on. But what can that lead to? I can well imagine a scientist saying: "I am sick of making atom-bombs", or a financier saying: "I am sick of money", or a politician saying: "I am sick of politics", or a soldier saying: "I am sick of being a soldier". Yes, one can begin to come to the end of life-meanings. Then what? What else is there? Now this Work is not about transforming outer life, or about transforming the atom, or one's financial or political or social position. It is about transforming oneself. It is about completing this incomplete thing called oneself—this thing born as a self-developing organism. Understand that this is only fully possible when one has played with the second set of toys seriously and properly. You will get nowhere in the Work, which is not about playing with toys, unless you have gained the level spoken of—that of a reasonably good life-man or Good Householder. Why? Because your centers will not have laid down in them enough rolls, enough experience, and you will not know how to make ordinary effort. You will have no life-wisdom. In short, you will still be perhaps playing with the first set of toys—dolls, lead soldiers, and so on—without knowing it. ...
Understand life is the same for all of us. We are all under the same laws. It is equally difficult for all of us. A man, if he has plus, has also an equivalent minus. If you do not understand this you will waste so much force in saying: "if only". Think no one better placed than you, for everyone is placed just where they should be placed, for their own development. Now, as was said, the Work is about self-transformation and is based on the definite idea that Man, created experimentally as a self-developing organism, has a definite way or path to follow in order to reach this further state of himself, once he has dealt enough with life and reached thereby a certain level of Being—which is first necessary. Let us take, in this connection, the Work-idea that a man, a woman, must work on being identified, and try to see how, by observing and working upon the state of being identified, one can begin to transform oneself. Take a man who is totally identified with his career. Everything he does is a source of worry to him. He is eaten on every side through identifying. To identify, in a literal sense, means to make oneself the same as—that is, to make yourself identical with something. Take a man who makes himself identical with his bank account. He loses his money and commits suicide—a common thing. Why does he do this? He does it because his money and his feeling of himself are identical. So when he loses his money, he feels he no longer exists. He feels he is annihilated. He is identified with something not really him at all. Now, as regards this man identified with his career—he wants, say, to become Prime Minister. He pulls wires, he intrigues, he sees all sorts of people whom otherwise he would not; he runs to and fro; he is in a continual state of anxiety, always keyed up, sleepless, and so on. This is quite all right for life—for the adult toys. But if all this leads him nowhere else in the long run, he retires and no doubt wonders what on earth it was all about. Consider how a star, a famous person, by the turn of the wheel of time becomes suddenly nobody. Remember life is a mill-race, a torrent, which we have to be in for a time, but which we have gradually to swim out of. Yes—we have to be in this mill-race to be men and women. The point is to get out of it later on. If you never plunged in you are no good. You thought no doubt to save your soul. But one must lose one's soul to find it again. Now these pictures of people totally identified are not to be sneered at for a moment. Each one of us pours force into the state of being identified over the most trivial things. Where is the centre of gravity of being identified? Every emotional part of a centre can identify. But the Emotional Centre itself is the centre of gravity of being identified. Mr. Ouspensky said once that the object of the Work is to awaken the Emotional Centre. He said, in so many words, that we have no real emotions, we only know the emotion of being identified. This, he said, prevents the Emotional Centre from doing its proper work. He said the Emotional Centre, if it were purified from negative emotions and identifying, would give us, for example, clairvoyance—the power of a cognitive knowledge quite different from the knowledge of the Intellectual Centre—such as a sense of danger, a sense of the future, and many things which belong to us by creation but which we have lost, having been brought up amongst sleeping people and being infected by negative emotions and states of identifying. Now if we work against identifying—if we observe it in ourselves—for, remember, you can change nothing in yourself if you have not yet observed it, become conscious of it—then by the mere fact of being aware of it, which is equivalent to confession of it—you will begin very gradually to dislike the emotional state of being identified. So here, briefly, is an example of how this Work can begin to transform you. I will add one thing. All connection is through meaning. Unless a thing means something to you, you cannot connect with it. If you cannot see any meaning in this Work for yourself, you will not be able to connect with it. This Work teaches that Greater Mind exists and that unless a person can realize this, he will not be able to work on himself. Unless you realize the miracle of nature and the miracle of your own created existence, you cannot work; you will never, for instance, be able to separate yourself from the state of being continually identified with yourself, because you imagine you are the biggest person and that there can be nothing bigger than you. And here, I would like to draw your attention to the Ray of Creation and ask you to reflect upon where you come in on it. One must begin to realize that one is not exactly what one imagines.
end of this commentary.
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Post by zendancer on Jul 7, 2023 12:40:58 GMT -5
Then I'll back off from this discussion. Well, no guarantee he will see it. To ZD, sdp is flea on tail of donkey. Very first post on this thread was also for ZD. From my POV, you are NOT a flea on the tail of a donkey. You're a serious seeker of truth who happens to be strongly attached to the teachings of one man who was a bit of a rogue with a charismatic personality. He did many odd things with seekers--too many to list here. Many of G.'s pointers coincide with those of other ND teachers, but many of them lead people wildly astray. Yes, most adults live life on what G. called "autopilot," and in the words of _______(can't think of his name at the moment) "They grow up in their sleep, get married in their sleep, have babies in their sleep, and die while still sound asleep." How does one wake up from what Charles Tart called "the concensus trance state" that is equivalent to a state of wakeful sleep? One must, in the words of Niz and many others, "go beyond the mind." When ZM Seung Sahn used to say, "Put it all down," he was saying "put down all of your beliefs and ideas; the truth is always here and now." THIS is IT. Whatever one is doing now is IT. Whatever is happening now is how THIS is unfolding/manifesting. There is no separation at all. If there was a separate entity with volition, that entity could try to do something, but no such entity exists. Selfhood is totally imaginary--a deep and profound cognitive illusion. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 7, 2023 16:40:26 GMT -5
Well, no guarantee he will see it. To ZD, sdp is flea on tail of donkey. Very first post on this thread was also for ZD. From my POV, you are NOT a flea on the tail of a donkey. You're a serious seeker of truth who happens to be strongly attached to the teachings on one man who was a bit of a rogue with a charismatic personality. He did many odd things with seekers--too many to list here. Many of G.'s pointers coincide with those of other ND teachers, but many of them lead people wildly astray. Yes, most adults live life on what G. called "autopilot," and in the words of _______(can't think of his name at the moment) "They grow up in their sleep, get married in their sleep, have babies in their sleep, and die while still sound asleep." How does one wake up from what Charles Tart called "the concensus trance state" that is equivalent to a state of wakeful sleep? One must, in the words of Niz and many others, "go beyond the mind." When ZM Seung Sahn used to say, "Put it all down," he was saying "put down all of your beliefs and ideas; the truth is always here and now." THIS is IT. Whatever one is doing now is IT. Whatever is happening now is how THIS is unfolding/manifesting. There is no separation at all. If there was a separate entity with volition, that entity could try to do something, but no such entity exists. Selfhood is totally imaginary--a deep and profound cognitive illusion. Yes, I know five times the stories you will ever know. For years, I hated Gurdjieff, and I loved him. I have left the Work at least 4 times over the years. Now, I know only, just keep working. There is only one way to keep the teaching straight, voluntary attention and self-remembering, and voluntary suffering and then intentional suffering. Gurdjieff said, correct, we do not have our own I. That's why I've told you numerous times you are correct. But Gurdjieff went further, he said it is possible to have one's own I, that's what his teaching is about. But it is only a possibility, no guarantees. But I've not gotten to the point, here, ST's, before. |
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