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Post by stardustpilgrim on Nov 27, 2016 22:59:59 GMT -5
......he delivered a lengthy harangue which he brought to an abrupt close with the following categorical declaration: 'The earth is too small for both of us; hence one of us must die'.
On hearing this bombastic tirade I wanted to knock this nonsense right out of his head. .....After a lengthy dispute...which at times developed into a deafening din and brought us perilously near to throwing each other down from the top of the bell-tower--it was decided that we must fight a duel.
Then the question arose, where to obtain weapons? .........While we were sitting pondering on what was to be done, he suddenly chirped up and exclaimed: 'If it's difficult to get pistols, it's easy to get cannon'. Everybody laughed.... What are you laughing at, you silly devils!' he retorted. 'It's possible to use cannon for your purpose. There's only one drawback. You've decided that one of you must die, but in a duel cannon both of you might die'.
What he proposed was that we should both go to the artillery range where firing practice was held, lie down and hide somewhere between the guns and the targets and await our doom. Whichever of us should be hit by a random shell would be the one fated to die. ......it was categorically decided by all present to carry out this project the very next day. ......The next morning at break of day the whole party of us, supplied with provisions, made our way to the Kars Chai. ...we lay down in separate hollows.
So far everything seemed rather a joke, but when the firing began it was anything but a joke. .....I do know what proceeded in me as soon as the firing started. What I experienced and felt when the shells began to fire and burst over my head, I remember now as if it were only yesterday.
At the beginning I was completely stupefied, but soon the intensity of feeling which flooded through me, and the force of logical confrontation of my thought increased to such an extent, that, at each moment, I thought and experienced more than during an entire twelvemonth.
Simultaneously, there arose in me for the first time the 'whole sensation of myself', which grew stronger and stronger, and a clear realization that through my thoughtlessness I had put myself in a situation of almost certain annihilation, because at that moment my death seemed inevitable.
Instinctive fear in the face of this inevitability so took possession of my entire being that surrounding realities seemed to disappear, leaving only an unconquerable living terror. I remember I tried to make myself as small as possible and to take shelter behind a ridge in the ground, so as to hear nothing and think about nothing.
The trembling which began in the whole of my body reached such a frightful intensity that is was as if each tissue vibrated independently, and, in spite of the roaring guns, I very distinctly heard the beating of my heart, and my teeth chattered so hard that it seemed as if at any moment they would break.
....I began to grow accustomed to my ordeal.... Little by little the tormenting thoughts of the possibility of my sad end began to disappear. Although as usual the firing was broken up into several periods, it was impossible to escape during the intervals, chiefly because of the danger of falling into the hands of the guards. There was nothing to be done but to keep lying there quietly. After eating some lunch I even, without knowing it, fell asleep. Evidently the nervous system, after such intensive activity, urgently demanded rest. I do not know how long I slept, but when I woke up it was already evening and everything was quiet.
.........I suddenly remembered and began to feel concerned about my comrade in misfortune. ...Seeing him lying there motionless, I was very frightened...when I suddenly noticed blood on his leg, I completely lost my head, and all the hatred of the day before turned to pity. ...he was breathing... As soon as Karpenko came to, he looked around at everyone present; and when, resting his gaze on me longer than on the others, he smiled, something moved within me and I was overcome with remorse and pity. From that moment I began to feel towards him as towards a brother. pages 202-207, Meetings With Remarkable Men, GI Gurdjieff, 1969
His age at this incident is not given, but I surmised he was about 12 or 13 at the time.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 5, 2017 16:06:19 GMT -5
"All of these observations will narrow down eventually to the study of your habits. ....Now the key, if there be one, particularly in the beginning, will be the simultaneous awareness of as many as possible.
The memory film must be rolled back-first for an hour, then a day, a week, a year, until it may be possible to go back to one's virgin state and discover one's real essence. For it will be increasingly evident that we are more conditioned in actions, feelings and thoughts, than we have supposed.
......Since this man is entirely automatic and merely a product of say two forces-biology and sociology-and nevertheless is one phase of the real 'I' then I will observe him and all his actions and reactions. I shall study him because man is the only mystery in the world and since I have a specimen, myself, I am content.
...It will her become apparent to the real 'I' that the behavior of your organism is absolutely automatic, and that it is most undesirable to be at the mercy of the chaos produced by the almost constant quarrel of the three centers among themselves.
...It will be evident to you, i.e. to the real 'I' in you, that this is an inevitable and undesirable state, which nevertheless cannot be changed by an effort of will. Thus, we say a world man has no free will or power to choose, and that he never will and never can have.
Unless? I said.
Unless you observe and study your organism without identifying yourself with its three centers. ...That is whenever the real 'I' is conscious and aware of, though entirely void of identity with your thoughts, feelings, and actions simultaneously. ...It will be difficult if not impossible....
.........
Simultaneity is the second dimension of time. The first is succession; the third, recurrence; then eternity.
The actual home to 'I' is the sixth dimension". Gurdjieff
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Post by zin on Feb 7, 2017 18:16:22 GMT -5
"...It will be evident to you, i.e. to the real 'I' in you, that this is an inevitable and undesirable state, which nevertheless cannot be changed by an effort of will. Thus, we say a world man has no free will or power to choose, and that he never will and never can have. Unless? I said. Unless you observe and study your organism without identifying yourself with its three centers. ...That is whenever the real 'I' is conscious and aware of, though entirely void of identity with your thoughts, feelings, and actions simultaneously. ...It will be difficult if not impossible.... " ......... The bolded requires quite a bit of concentration I guess. I say 'I guess' because I am not sure I have ever done it totally. Are there any advices for this? (I am not asking about observing things one by one.) |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Feb 9, 2017 19:03:11 GMT -5
"...It will be evident to you, i.e. to the real 'I' in you, that this is an inevitable and undesirable state, which nevertheless cannot be changed by an effort of will. Thus, we say a world man has no free will or power to choose, and that he never will and never can have. Unless? I said. Unless you observe and study your organism without identifying yourself with its three centers. ...That is whenever the real 'I' is conscious and aware of, though entirely void of identity with your thoughts, feelings, and actions simultaneously. ...It will be difficult if not impossible.... " ......... The bolded requires quite a bit of concentration I guess. I say 'I guess' because I am not sure I have ever done it totally. Are there any advices for this? (I am not asking about observing things one by one.) Concentration is an alternative word, there is a more specific word. "without identifying yourself with its three centers" should lead you to the defining identification thread. And nobody has found the one specific word that will define what identification is. So this quote is about identification, or more specifically about non-identification. Look for identifying in the index to In Search of the Miraculous. The first passage defines specifically what identification is (and you can post it on the defining identification thread if you wish, maybe just see if there is any response). So then, without answering further, two different practices could apply here, division of attention and non-identification. But you can take what you know and try to understand the quote from this added knowledge. But "that is whenever the real 'I' is conscious and aware of" is a result, finding real 'I' is a result of practicing the interior practices (the two beginning practices, self-remembering, self-observation, and then additionally conscious breathing. Those five, along with voluntary suffering, can take one very far). So that is way down the road, even if one knew how to practice. And even if you know how, it still "will be difficult if not impossible", but better to say, difficult but not impossible. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 18, 2017 11:27:56 GMT -5
Stardustpilgrim, It's a mind f*^k if you take it seriously... and a bit of fun if you are just playing with it. Who is a 'non-dualist'? You are - just you, no labels. Human being. tano, Once Gurdjieff was asked what he taught. His reply: I teach that when it rains, the pavements get wet.Worth repeating........ |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 22, 2017 13:02:52 GMT -5
maxdp asked for a quote about the two rivers.
"It will be useful if we compare human life in general to a large river which arises from various sources and flows into two separate streams, that is to say, there occurs in this river a dividing of the waters, and we can compare the life of any one man to one of the drops of water composing this river of life.
On account of the unbecoming life of people, it was established for the purposes of the common actualizing of everything existing that, in general, life on Earth should flow in two streams. Great Nature foresaw and gradually fixed in the common presence of humanity a corresponding property, so that, before the dividing of the waters, in each drop that has this corresponding subjective "struggle with one's own denying part," (note sdp, this is a kind of double-bind all experience, inherent in man) there might arise that "something", thanks to which certain properties are acquired which give the possibility, at the place of the branching of the waters of life, of entering one or the other stream.
Thus there are two directions in the life of humanity: active and passive. Laws are everywhere the same. These two laws, these two currents, continually meet, now crossing each other, now running parallel. But they never mix; they support each other, they are indispensable for each other.
It is always so and it will always remain.
Now, the life of all ordinary men taken together can be thought of one of these rivers in which each life, whether of a man or any other living being, is represented by a drop in the river, and the river in itself is a link in the cosmic chain.
In accordance with general cosmic laws, the river flows in a fixed direction. All its turns, all its bends, all these changes have a definite purpose. In this purpose every drop plays a part insofar as it is a part of the river, but the law of the river as a whole does not extend to the individual drops. The changes of position, movement and direction of the drops are completely accidental. At one moment the drop is here, at another moment the drop is there...Whether its life is easy or difficult depends on where it happens to be. There is no individual law for it, no personal fate. Only the whole river has a fate, which is common to all the drops. Personal sorrow or joy, happiness and suffering-in that current, all these are accidental.
But the drop has, in principle, a possibility of escaping from this general current and jumping across to the other, the neighboring, stream.
This too is a law of Nature. But, for this, the drop must know how to make use of additional shocks, and of the momentum of the whole river, so as to come to the surface and be closer to the bank at those places where it is easier to jump across. It must choose not only the right place but also the right time, to make use of winds, currents and storms. Then the drop has a chance to rise with the spray and jump across into the other river.
From the moment it gets into the other river, the drop is in a different world, a different life, and therefore it is under different laws. In this second river a law exists for the individual drops, the law of alternating progression. A drop comes to the top or goes to the bottom, this time not by accident but by law. On coming to the surface, the drop gradually becomes heavier and sinks; deep down it looses weight and rises again. To float to the surface is good for it-to be deep down is bad. Much depends upon skill and on effort. In the second river there are different currents and it is necessary to get into the required current. The drop must float on the surface as long as possible in order to prepare itself, to earn the possibility of passing into another current, and so on.
But we are in the first river. As long as we are in this passive current (note sdp, you could say this is the nonvolition river, that's the meaning of passive) it will carry us where it may; as long as we are passive we shall be pushed about and be at the mercy of every accident. We are the slaves of these accidents.
At the same time nature has given us the possibility of escaping from this slavery. Therefore when we talk about freedom we are talking precisely about crossing over into the other river.
But of course it is not so simple-you cannot cross over merely because you wish. Strong desire and long preparation are necessary. You will have to live through being identified with all the attractions of the first river. You must die to this river. All religions speak of this death: "Unless you die, you cannot be born again".
This does not mean physical death. From that death there is no necessity to rise again because if there is a soul, and it is immortal, it can get along without the body... No, Christ and all the others spoke of the death which can take place in life, the death of the tyrant from whom our slavery comes, that death which is a necessary condition of the first and principal liberation of man.
If a man were deprived of his illusions and all that prevents him from seeing reality-if he were deprived of his interests, his cares, his expectations and hopes-all his striving would become empty and there would remain an empty being, an empty body, only physiologically alive.
This would be the death of "I", the death of everything it consisted of, the destruction of everything false collected through ignorance or inexperience. All this will remain in him merely as material, but subject to selection. Then a man will be able to choose for himself and not have imposed on him what others like. He will have conscious choice.
This is difficult. No, difficult is not the word. The word "impossible" is also wrong, because, in principle, it is possible; only it is a thousand times more difficult than to become a multimillionaire through honest work.
............
Question: There are two rivers- how can a drop go from the first to the second?
.......This question about two rivers refers to essence, as all real things do. ...The object of these talks is to help you get to something real. ...I suppose that some understanding of your personality has led you to a certain dissatisfaction with your life as it is, and to the hope of finding something better. ...Try to understand that what you usually call "I" is not I. ...Many parts of you wants things, but only one part is real. ...try to be sincere with yourself. ... "...
Views from the Real World, Gurdjieff's early talks in Moscow, Essentuki, Tiflis, Berlin, London, Paris, New York and Chicago as recollected by his pupils, first published in America 1973
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Post by penny on Apr 22, 2017 15:50:33 GMT -5
"...Many parts of you wants things, but only one part is real. ...try to be sincere with yourself. ... "
I think there is more going on that non duality never gets into but it's more intuitive than anything so just about impossible to talk about. I think the common assumption that SR is the end of the road, because the road can only go so far (non-ceptuality is the end of the road), is true but where conceptuality ends is where what's natural/intuitive takes over. That part of us that is sincere/real and is the same as what we want begins to rouse.
I think my time here is over and I just want to say, SDP, thanks for sharing everything you've shared. I may come back with a question or two from time to time. :-)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 22, 2017 19:03:09 GMT -5
OK...sure penny, thanks, any time.....
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Post by ouroboros on Apr 23, 2017 6:26:12 GMT -5
Hi penny, I just wanted to say there was a couple of things you mentioned over the past couple of months which I really resonated with, but wasn't in the mood to get into an in depth discussion about so didn't comment on at the time. Imo both points demonstrated a rare level of insight, which I felt wouldn't get a lot of traction here on the forum for various reasons. Really I just wanted to share with you that I grokked.  (apologies for potential off-topic) |
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Post by maxdprophet on Apr 23, 2017 7:10:42 GMT -5
Thanks SDP, that's much more clear.
I read this, ironically, as similar to the idea of 'entering the stream.' Also similar to glimpsing the ox. The 99+% float along in the passive stream, getting knocked about. Contrary to your comment sdp, I think volition is part of this stream -- the illusion of it -- contributes to being knocked about. "Shiola happens no matter what I do!" Some are in the other stream (seeking). This has it's own currents and such but the more one 'dies' to it or gives up their personal story / volition about it the more efficient the process is. Ocean is the end of that river. The passive one just nether regions hahaha. (reborn into endless water cycle for eternity).
The interesting part for me was how he describes in detail the drop getting from the passive to the active stream. It's classic metaphor breakdown, for one. For the other, it doesn't jive with my experience. Of course, this is according to my entering the stream view. A thirst for the Truth has always been there, emphasized or not at different times (currents, eddies).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 23, 2017 9:00:28 GMT -5
Thanks SDP, that's much more clear. I read this, ironically, as similar to the idea of 'entering the stream.' Also similar to glimpsing the ox. The 99+% float along in the passive stream, getting knocked about. Contrary to your comment sdp, I think volition is part of this stream -- the illusion of it -- contributes to being knocked about. "Shiola happens no matter what I do!" Some are in the other stream (seeking). This has it's own currents and such but the more one 'dies' to it or gives up their personal story / volition about it the more efficient the process is. Ocean is the end of that river. The passive one just nether regions hahaha. (reborn into endless water cycle for eternity). The interesting part for me was how he describes in detail the drop getting from the passive to the active stream. It's classic metaphor breakdown, for one. For the other, it doesn't jive with my experience. Of course, this is according to my entering the stream view. A thirst for the Truth has always been there, emphasized or not at different times (currents, eddies). Thanks for the reply maxdp....out of time right now, be back later. Nice post.....tbc... |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Apr 23, 2017 10:54:44 GMT -5
Thanks SDP, that's much more clear. I read this, ironically, as similar to the idea of 'entering the stream.' Also similar to glimpsing the ox. The 99+% float along in the passive stream, getting knocked about. Contrary to your comment sdp, I think volition is part of this stream -- the illusion of it -- contributes to being knocked about. "Shiola happens no matter what I do!" Some are in the other stream (seeking). This has it's own currents and such but the more one 'dies' to it or gives up their personal story / volition about it the more efficient the process is. Ocean is the end of that river. The passive one just nether regions hahaha. (reborn into endless water cycle for eternity). The interesting part for me was how he describes in detail the drop getting from the passive to the active stream. It's classic metaphor breakdown, for one. For the other, it doesn't jive with my experience. Of course, this is according to my entering the stream view. A thirst for the Truth has always been there, emphasized or not at different times (currents, eddies). First (just in case it wasn't clear) the dividing of the streams was WAY back in history, so not relevant for present discussion. Toward the end Gurdjieff said ~we~ are in the passive stream. So seeking in and of itself doesn't put one in the active stream. He tried to stress the point that moving from the passive stream to the other stream is EXCEPTIONALLY difficult. Keeping in mind this talk was given in the 1920's, he said becoming a multimillionaire through one's honest labor, is easier than crossing from one stream to the other. Yes, the ILLUSION of volition is part of being in the passive stream, and yes, that can increase suffering and hardship. But yes, moving from the passive stream to the other stream is indeed a kind of breakdown. One's whole world is turned upside down. This is actually a very necessary part of the process of even moving from one river to the other. The point of the description of passing from one stream to the other is, it NEVER JUST HAPPENS. Passive means just that, passive. The most important point is that moving from the passive river to the other is by means of volition, which the NDist deny is even possible at all. That's why I have said previously the two views are lightyears apart. Unless there is a recognition of volition, one is necessarily still in the passive stream. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 6, 2017 9:44:31 GMT -5
Once there was a meeting with a large number of people who had not been at our meetings before. One of them asked: "From what does the way start?" ...
The chief difficulty in understanding the idea of the way," said Gurdjieff, "consists in the fact that people usually think that the way" (he emphasized this word) "starts on the same level on which life is going. This is quite wrong. The way begins on another, much higher, level. This is exactly what people usually do not understand. The beginning of the way is thought to be easier or simpler than it is in reality. ...
Man lives in life under the law of accident and under two kinds of influences again governed by accident. The first kind of influences are created in life itself or by life itself...nation, country, climate, family, education, society, manners and customs, etc. The second kinds of influences are created outside this life, influences of the inner circle, or esoteric influences-influences, that is, created under different laws. These influences differ from the former, first of all in being conscious in their origin. This means they have been created consciously by conscious men for a definite purpose. ...
They are let out in life for a definite purpose and become mixed with influences of the first kind. But it must be born in mind that these influences are conscious only in their origin. Coming into the general vortex of life they fall under the general law of accident and begin to act mechanically, that is, they may act on a certain definite man or may not act; they may reach him or they may not. In undergoing change and distortion in life through transmission and interpretation, influences of the second kind are transformed into influences of the first kind, that is, they become, as it were, merged into the influences of the first kind. ...
We have spoken about the beginning of the way. The beginning of the way depends precisely upon this understanding or upon the capacity for discriminating between the two kinds of influences. Of course, their distribution is unequal. One man receives more of the influences whose source lies outside life, another less; a third is almost isolated from them. But this cannot be helped. This is already fate. Speaking in general...conditions are more or less the same for everybody, that is, to put it more correctly, difficulties are equal for everybody. The difficulty lies in separating the two kinds of influences. ...if a man in receiving these influences begins to discriminate between them and put on one side those which are not created in life itself, then gradually discrimination becomes easier and after a certain time a man can no longer confuse them with the ordinary influences of life.
The results of the influences whose source lies outside life collect together within him, he remembers them together, feels them together. They begin to form within him a certain whole. ...and these begin to influence a man's orientation, obliging him to turn around an even to move in a certain direction. ...a man understands the idea of the way and he begins to look for the way. The search for the way may take many years and may lead to nothing. ...
Influences of the third kind...being a direct influence, and being a conscious influence...can never be subject to the law of accident; they are themselves outside the law of accident and their action also is outside the law of accident. ...The moment when the man who is looking for the way meets a man who knows the way is called the first threshold or the first step. From this first threshold the stairway begins. Between 'life' and the 'way' lies the 'stairway'. Only by passing along this 'stairway' can a man enter the 'way.' ...The way begins only where the stairway ends, that is, after the last threshold on the stairway, on a level much higher than ordinary level of life.
Therefore, it is impossible to answer the question, from what does the way start? The way starts from something that is not in life at all, and therefore it is impossible to say from what. pgs 199-201, In Search of the Miraculous, PD Ouspensky, 1949
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 1, 2017 17:55:37 GMT -5
"The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. Our science and philosophy have overlooked the fact that we do not possess this state of consciousness and that we cannot create it in ourselves by desire or decision alone. ...
It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of very rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him only by means of special training. For most people, even by educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in the way of acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it, that is, that they possess self-consciousness and everything connected with it; individuality in the sense of a permanent and unchangable I, will, ability to do, and so on. It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has. ...
He cannot stop the flow of his thoughts, he cannot control his imagination, his emotions, his attention. He lives in a subjective world of 'I love', 'I do not love', 'I like', 'I do not like', 'I want', 'I do not want', that is, of what he thinks he likes, of what he thinks he does not like, of what he thinks he wants, of what he thinks he does not want. He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by a wall of imagination. He lives in sleep. He is asleep. What is called 'clear consciousness' is sleep and a far more dangerous sleep than sleep at night in bed. ...
Both states of consciousness, sleep and the waking state, are really subjective. Only by beginning to remember himself does a man really awaken. And then all surrounding life acquires for him a different aspect and a different meaning. He sees that it is the life of sleeping people, a life in sleep. All this can have no vale whatsoever. Only awakening and what leads to awakening has a value in reality. ...
How can one awaken? How can one escape this sleep? These questions are the most important, the most vital that can ever confront a man. But before this it is necessary to be convinced of the very fact of sleep. But it is possible to be convinced of this only by trying to awaken. When a man understands that he does not remember himself and that to remember himself means to awaken to some extent, and when at the same time he sees by experience how difficult it is to remember himself, he will understand that he cannot awaken simply by having the desire to do so. It can be said still more precisely that a man cannot awaken by himself. ...
It is possible to think for thousands of years; it is possible to write whole libraries of books, to create theories by the million, and all this in sleep, without any possibility of awakening. On the contrary, these books and these theories, written and created in sleep, will merely send other people to sleep, and so on". pgs 141-144
In Search of the Miraculous, PD Ouspensky, 1949.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 2, 2017 12:06:02 GMT -5
"If a man understands that he is asleep and if he wishes to awake, then everything that helps him to awake will be good and everything that hinders him, everything that prolongs his sleep, will be evil. ...But this is so only for those who want to awake, that is, for those who understand that they are asleep. Those who do not understand that they are asleep and those who have no wish to awake, cannot have understanding of good and evil. And as the overwhelming majority of people do not realize and will never realize that they are asleep, neither good nor evil can actually exist for them.
This contradicts generally accepted ideas. People are accustomed to think good and evil must be the same for everyone, and above all, that good and evil exist for everyone. In reality, good and evil exist only for a few, for those who have an aim and who pursue that aim. Then what hinders the pursuit of that aim is evil and what helps it is good.
But of course most sleeping people will say that they have an aim and that they are going somewhere. The realization of the fact that he has no aim and that he is going nowhere is the first sign of approaching awakening of a man or of awakening becoming really possible for him. Awakening begins when a man realizes that he is going nowhere and does not know where to go. pgs 158, 159
All new powers and capacities of realization come always in one and the same way. At first they appear in the form of flashes at rare and short moments; afterwards they appear more often and last longer until, finally, after very long work they become permanent. The same thing applies to awakening. It is impossible to awaken completely all at once. One must first begin to awaken for short moments. ...But there are thousands of things which prevent a man from awakening, which keep him in the power of his dreams. In order to act consciously with the intention of awakening, it is necessary to know the nature of the forces which keep man in a state of sleep.
First of all it must be recognized that the sleep in which man exists in not normal but hypnotic sleep. Man is hypnotized and this hypnotic state is continually maintained and strengthened in him. ...
'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized'. In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there in no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken. Theoretically he can, but practically it is almost impossible because as soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep begin to act upon him with tenfold energy and he immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that he is awake or is awakening. ... Only a man who fully realizes the difficulty of awakening can understand the necessity of long and hard work in order to awaken". pgs 219-221
In Search of the Miraculous by PD Ouspensky, 1949
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