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Post by quinn on Jun 15, 2015 8:10:42 GMT -5
Just returned from a TAT gathering. ( TAT Foundation website) If you go to the site, you'll see right at the top "Friendship and the Spiritual Search" and "...modeled on the principle that cooperation and interaction with fellow inquirers can expedite a seeker's own investigation". This gathering focused on that interaction by having a number of people share their spiritual paths and allowing a lot of time for structured and organic conversations. One of the activities of TAT is a period of moderated challenging and on Saturday night we broke into two groups to do that. The concept reminded me of my favorite aspect of this forum - the part where we can challenge each other to look at things in a new way or see something that was previously a blind spot. At its best, this is invaluable. At its worst, the process can cause the participants to become more deeply entrenched in their own beliefs or worse - take on new beliefs just from the force of powerful personalities or the belief that someone else has the answers. The TAT challenge group format had some aspects to it that seemed to facilitate the positive side of challenge and I wanted to share them. I think there's a more complete list of loosely held 'rules' that I'll try to get my hands on, but these are the ones I remember: ~ The group is voluntary. ~ One person at a time sits on the 'hot seat' (my words) and shares something - an insight, a troubling area, a question, whatever. The 'interrogators' (my word again) ask questions. The interaction is timed but it's rather loose and will run longer if things are going productively. ~ You can sit in the group without going on the hot seat, but if you chose that option, you can't be an interrogator. ~ The main and overriding concept of the challenge is to help the person find their own answers. Any attempt to tell someone what to think or project one's own beliefs on the person is not allowed. In our group, there was some fruit that was immediately seen and perhaps some seeds were planted that may come to fruition somewhere down the line. Generally speaking, for me the concept of friendship on the spiritual path wasn't something I looked at or thought about. I tend to be a loner by nature (or nurture) and consider this path to be a solitary one anyway. So the TAT weekend shook that up a bit and I got to see how enlivening and broadening that interaction can be.
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Post by laughter on Jun 15, 2015 8:52:55 GMT -5
Friendship can be very much more than just pleasant, it can be an instance of the sort of close bond that's possible with our family. In the ideal it's the absence of the boundaries that we keep up based on social conditioning.
It's founded on trust.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 9:17:38 GMT -5
Thanks for that description, Quinn. For a fellow recluse, and generally socially challenged, it sounds pretty intense. I'd heard of 'confrontation' but never really pictured it before. Seems almost AA-ish?
Seems to me the structure and vulnerability and face-to-face nature of that interaction puts it in a whole different ballpark than what's possible on an anonymous forum like this, each of us comfortably removed. Our forum here may be more comparable to a traffic situation, with keyboards. Fits of road-rage erupting now and then. I can't imagine the pattern of entrenched snarky zingers would hold up very well in a TAT confrontation (I humbly include myself in the snarky zinger category, BTW).
I'd think to recreate a confrontation online you'd have to make it somewhat private (emphasizes the voluntariness of it) and maybe include that structure of taking turns. Folks replying would have to commit to addressing the information that arose from the person in the hotseat and restrain themselves from using it as a soapbox or zinger-delivery trigger. Methinks it would be a hard task. Perhaps include skype sessions to approach some of the face-to-face vibe.
Do you have any examples of a 'challenge' or 'confrontation'? Someone can roll their eyes and it could be taken as a constructive challenge or sarcastic attack, depending. For example, a clarifying question might be seen as a challenge. Is it anything goes? 'Cut the crap!' for example.
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Post by quinn on Jun 15, 2015 13:33:14 GMT -5
Thanks for that description, Quinn. For a fellow recluse, and generally socially challenged, it sounds pretty intense. I'd heard of 'confrontation' but never really pictured it before. Seems almost AA-ish? Seems to me the structure and vulnerability and face-to-face nature of that interaction puts it in a whole different ballpark than what's possible on an anonymous forum like this, each of us comfortably removed. Our forum here may be more comparable to a traffic situation, with keyboards. Fits of road-rage erupting now and then. I can't imagine the pattern of entrenched snarky zingers would hold up very well in a TAT confrontation (I humbly include myself in the snarky zinger category, BTW). I'd think to recreate a confrontation online you'd have to make it somewhat private (emphasizes the voluntariness of it) and maybe include that structure of taking turns. Folks replying would have to commit to addressing the information that arose from the person in the hotseat and restrain themselves from using it as a soapbox or zinger-delivery trigger. Methinks it would be a hard task. Perhaps include skype sessions to approach some of the face-to-face vibe. Do you have any examples of a 'challenge' or 'confrontation'? Someone can roll their eyes and it could be taken as a constructive challenge or sarcastic attack, depending. For example, a clarifying question might be seen as a challenge. Is it anything goes? 'Cut the crap!' for example. Hi Max. Yes, I rolled around with the idea of incorporating something like this in a forum setting and ran into a lot of the same stumbling blocks you did. 'Cut the crap' didn't come up Saturday, not to say that in other groups it might have. I think the main quality of the 'challenge' is that it's framed as a question. So maybe, "Have you considered that what you think is a bunch of crap?" would fly (heh heh). No, just kidding. If it's kept in mind that the point of questioning is to help the other person find their OWN answers, judging something as crap is projecting MY view on you. But there could be an example of a question tailored specifically to what the person is saying that gets them to look a little deeper with the potential of seeing the crapness. Someone in my meditation group told a little ditty a few weeks ago that ended with "And then I realized I was telling myself a story." That would be the best outcome. I hesitate to give an example because, even though nothing was said about privacy, I have to guess what's said in the group stays in the group (until I hear otherwise). Many of the questions were just for clarification - sometimes terminology is misinterpreted. And then there might be a suggestion to look at a particular aspect of what was said. Sorry that's so vague.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 7:44:16 GMT -5
Thanks for that description, Quinn. For a fellow recluse, and generally socially challenged, it sounds pretty intense. I'd heard of 'confrontation' but never really pictured it before. Seems almost AA-ish? Seems to me the structure and vulnerability and face-to-face nature of that interaction puts it in a whole different ballpark than what's possible on an anonymous forum like this, each of us comfortably removed. Our forum here may be more comparable to a traffic situation, with keyboards. Fits of road-rage erupting now and then. I can't imagine the pattern of entrenched snarky zingers would hold up very well in a TAT confrontation (I humbly include myself in the snarky zinger category, BTW). I'd think to recreate a confrontation online you'd have to make it somewhat private (emphasizes the voluntariness of it) and maybe include that structure of taking turns. Folks replying would have to commit to addressing the information that arose from the person in the hotseat and restrain themselves from using it as a soapbox or zinger-delivery trigger. Methinks it would be a hard task. Perhaps include skype sessions to approach some of the face-to-face vibe. Do you have any examples of a 'challenge' or 'confrontation'? Someone can roll their eyes and it could be taken as a constructive challenge or sarcastic attack, depending. For example, a clarifying question might be seen as a challenge. Is it anything goes? 'Cut the crap!' for example. Hi Max. Yes, I rolled around with the idea of incorporating something like this in a forum setting and ran into a lot of the same stumbling blocks you did. 'Cut the crap' didn't come up Saturday, not to say that in other groups it might have. I think the main quality of the 'challenge' is that it's framed as a question. So maybe, "Have you considered that what you think is a bunch of crap?" would fly (heh heh). No, just kidding. If it's kept in mind that the point of questioning is to help the other person find their OWN answers, judging something as crap is projecting MY view on you. But there could be an example of a question tailored specifically to what the person is saying that gets them to look a little deeper with the potential of seeing the crapness. Someone in my meditation group told a little ditty a few weeks ago that ended with "And then I realized I was telling myself a story." That would be the best outcome. I hesitate to give an example because, even though nothing was said about privacy, I have to guess what's said in the group stays in the group (until I hear otherwise). Many of the questions were just for clarification - sometimes terminology is misinterpreted. And then there might be a suggestion to look at a particular aspect of what was said. Sorry that's so vague. understood.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 13:06:13 GMT -5
Friendship can be very much more than just pleasant, it can be an instance of the sort of close bond that's possible with our family. In the ideal it's the absence of the boundaries that we keep up based on social conditioning. It's founded on trust.
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Post by laughter on Jun 17, 2015 0:26:05 GMT -5
Friendship can be very much more than just pleasant, it can be an instance of the sort of close bond that's possible with our family. In the ideal it's the absence of the boundaries that we keep up based on social conditioning. It's founded on trust. View Attachment"Me" comes along for the ride on the premise of the relationship of friend.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 12:38:21 GMT -5
"Me" comes along for the ride on the premise of the relationship of friend. Yup, friendship happens, the 'me' seeks to fulfill it's hopes and dreams in that which changes.
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Post by quinn on Jun 17, 2015 13:02:24 GMT -5
"Me" comes along for the ride on the premise of the relationship of friend. Yup, friendship happens, the 'me' seeks to fulfill it's hopes and dreams in that which changes. That's interesting, Source. So what would you say is going on (in terms of the 'me') when, in friendship, something is said that triggers the dropping away of something previously seen as real or true. Basically what I see this 'confrontation' business as being about.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 13:24:16 GMT -5
Yup, friendship happens, the 'me' seeks to fulfill it's hopes and dreams in that which changes. That's interesting, Source. So what would you say is going on (in terms of the 'me') when, in friendship, something is said that triggers the dropping away of something previously seen as real or true. Basically what I see this 'confrontation' business as being about. I see it as a perpetuation of the 'me'. The 'me' seeking itself through the dropping away of the false, it's seeking of freedom, peace and happiness. Nothing wrong with that, that's how it works. However that energetic 'me' can collapse and in the me's absence what is always here, freedom, peace and happiness shines through, for no one...
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Post by quinn on Jun 17, 2015 13:38:34 GMT -5
That's interesting, Source. So what would you say is going on (in terms of the 'me') when, in friendship, something is said that triggers the dropping away of something previously seen as real or true. Basically what I see this 'confrontation' business as being about. I see it as a perpetuation of the 'me'. The 'me' seeking itself through the dropping away of the false, it's seeking of freedom, peace and happiness. Nothing wrong with that, that's how it works. However that energetic 'me' can collapse and in the me's absence what is always here, freedom, peace and happiness shines through, for no one... Ok! I may misunderstand one part of what you're saying, though. How do you reconcile the two bolded statements? If this kind of activity is the perpetuation of the 'me', then how is it that it's also "how it works"? Maybe I'm not sure what you mean by 'how it works'.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 16:49:15 GMT -5
I see it as a perpetuation of the 'me'. The 'me' seeking itself through the dropping away of the false, it's seeking of freedom, peace and happiness. Nothing wrong with that, that's how it works. However that energetic 'me' can collapse and in the me's absence what is always here, freedom, peace and happiness shines through, for no one... Ok! I may misunderstand one part of what you're saying, though. How do you reconcile the two bolded statements? If this kind of activity is the perpetuation of the 'me', then how is it that it's also "how it works"? Maybe I'm not sure what you mean by 'how it works'. Yeah, I mean for me, that's how it appears, it's method of operation.
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Post by laughter on Jun 17, 2015 17:59:26 GMT -5
"Me" comes along for the ride on the premise of the relationship of friend. Yup, friendship happens, the 'me' seeks to fulfill it's hopes and dreams in that which changes. By making friends with other me's? Nah. We can put "friendship" up on the dissection table if you want, but it is possible to interact with other human beings in a spirit of amicability without wanting anything from or giving something to the other dude. Or chick. It's an opening, a welcoming, a warming and a homecoming, all in one.
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Post by quinn on Jun 17, 2015 18:14:10 GMT -5
Ok! I may misunderstand one part of what you're saying, though. How do you reconcile the two bolded statements? If this kind of activity is the perpetuation of the 'me', then how is it that it's also "how it works"? Maybe I'm not sure what you mean by 'how it works'. Yeah, I mean for me, that's how it appears, it's method of operation. gotcha. I'm with Laughter on this one. In the spirit of friendship, there can be an opening that really has nothing to do with the 'me'. I'm sure it can work the way you say, too, but it doesn't have to. Maybe we can capitalize it...True Friendship. heh heh
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 18:23:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean for me, that's how it appears, it's method of operation. gotcha. I'm with Laughter on this one. In the spirit of friendship, there can be an opening that really has nothing to do with the 'me'. I'm sure it can work the way you say, too, but it doesn't have to. Maybe we can capitalize it...True Friendship. heh heh Well, yeah, like I said it happens. And if there's no 'me' investing itself in what's happening, then yeah it could be called True Friendship. Or perhaps even Communion.
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