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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 7:15:41 GMT -5
I have to keep saying it because it sums it all up nicely in regards to what Ramana said...
All the chatter about appearances not perceiving and not being aware or conscious is just a crazy turn of events that keeps going on and on ..
Awareness becomes consciousness in the form of an object - mind- body experience .
There's no point as I see it to continue to refer to anything of the mind-body as awareness itself, or consciousness itself or being an appearance only to that which does or doesn't perceive . It doesn't work . It's not how it is .
It's all of the above as Self becomes aware / conscious of Self within individual experience . Awareness itself = no self . Awareness itself therefore is not the perceiver . Awareness itself does not reflect I AM the perceiver .
The Individual known as Marie is having an a conscious experience, aware of herself, how she perceives self / Self.
The Individual known as Marie can perceive the mountain in this worldly experience cos she has eyes in her head .
There is no 'appearance of Marie only' saying that she is perceiving the mountain when she is not . Lets face it you can't even just appear to be saying that without actually saying that of this world .
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 7:16:36 GMT -5
I asked you straightforward questions that related to your theories being of the mind that is not of the silence and I spoke to you about the reality of the elephant squashing you regardless of what you think of it . There were no answers to these questions but rather more pointers, pointing me to the silence . The silence as said many times is not where your theories have derived from . The silence will not save you from the elephant . You didn't comment on any of these matters . Suggesting I made no attempt to understand what you explained is ridiculous based upon you not acknowledging a world I initially said . All I wanted was acknowledgement to these facts .The body as said before doesn't know what an elephant is . Only you do . You head-knowingly know that an elephant can squash you so there is an immediate response to get out of harms way . The cells in your eyes / lens / cornea do not know what an elephant is, only you do . And of course certain koans can be resolved by being silent, but the koans themselves are not born from the silence, this was the point I made . There is instead noise and theories upon theories where koans are concerned that are thought up in mind in order to contemplate upon .. Your theory of imagination like said is not conjured up from within the silence . It's just more noise created trying to counteract the noise created from another's theories .. This is what I was suggesting / questioning . This is why pointing me to the silence was inappropriate because you was too busy being deafened by your own noise that you didn't hear or take your own advice . No point in chatting away suggesting that the other would benefit from the silence lol . Do you see the irony? I don't need the silence or the suggestion of it . 25 years of daily meditation takes care of that thanks all the same . In regards to the blood cells doing their thing, they are designed to do their thing, just as the whole mind-body construct is designed to carry out certain functions . For the blood cells to carry out there duties is not likened to one having a thought about having a cup of tea or not . One has to have the thought to have a cup of tea and then get off their butt and put the kettle on . The legs don't respond on their own merits in regards to getting up through having some kind of memory that they have to walk to the kitchen in order to put the kettle on . If the spirit was not of the body, like when a peep is asleep then why doesn't the body cells move out of the way of danger? It doesn't because the ship requires a conscious captain at the helm in order to steer the ship out of dangers way . I understand what you have been saying for the record I just don't agree with what you say and have given my reasons for why, I can also appreciate what you say as much as you can appreciate what I say . I didn't however appreciate the ironic pointers made and ignoring what I had asked / suggested as previously stated butt I am not losing any sleep over it .. It is good when you start to admit what you want from these exchanges. Do you see all of your ideas as solid facts? I think most peeps in general when they chat on the forums want the other party to speak honestly and not to ignore what was said or asked of them time and time again . In regards to my ideas as being solid facts, I would say that most of what I say is basic common sense and such things I say can be tried and tested . Do you for instance have a thought about having a cup of tea prior to you getting up and walking to the kitchen or do your legs move on there own for no apparent reason and head to the kitchen and you then wonder why your standing in the kitchen? Then say I know, while I am here I might as well put the kettle on . Have you ever moved out of the way of an elephant while you were asleep? Your answers to both questions could reflect a solid matter of fact but won't carry much weight in a dream world that pertains to dream characters that can't even perceive the imaginary elephant . This is why we need a sound footing to begin with cos nuffin means or stands for nuffin otherwise .
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Post by Gopal on Dec 7, 2018 7:24:10 GMT -5
Then is 'conscious' a quale? Like 'redness'? Exchange the word 'conscious' for 'know', 'look', 'aware' if you like. I'm asking HOW appearances are known. It seems that neither Consciousness nor Awareness 'knows' them, so.....? Gopal states clearly that Consciousness is Perceiving is Knowing. You don't seem to be taking that route. Consciousness is not a perceiver, neither is Awareness. Awareness is the act of being aware. Consciousness is the act of being conscious. To assign either to one who is perceiving, or one who knows, would be a mistake. Is this not I have been arguing with you in the past that Perciever is not the entity but act of perceiving? You continued to deny with me,eh? Is this not I said you that Perceiver can't perceive nothing because Perceiver is an act which can't be separated from perceived? eh?
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 7:31:25 GMT -5
I asked you straightforward questions that related to your theories being of the mind that is not of the silence and I spoke to you about the reality of the elephant squashing you regardless of what you think of it . There were no answers to these questions but rather more pointers, pointing me to the silence . The silence as said many times is not where your theories have derived from . The silence will not save you from the elephant . You didn't comment on any of these matters . Suggesting I made no attempt to understand what you explained is ridiculous based upon you not acknowledging a world I initially said . All I wanted was acknowledgement to these facts . The body as said before doesn't know what an elephant is . Only you do . You head-knowingly know that an elephant can squash you so there is an immediate response to get out of harms way . The cells in your eyes / lens / cornea do not know what an elephant is, only you do . And of course certain koans can be resolved by being silent, but the koans themselves are not born from the silence, this was the point I made . There is instead noise and theories upon theories where koans are concerned that are thought up in mind in order to contemplate upon .. Your theory of imagination like said is not conjured up from within the silence . It's just more noise created trying to counteract the noise created from another's theories .. This is what I was suggesting / questioning . This is why pointing me to the silence was inappropriate because you was too busy being deafened by your own noise that you didn't hear or take your own advice . No point in chatting away suggesting that the other would benefit from the silence lol . Do you see the irony? I don't need the silence or the suggestion of it . 25 years of daily meditation takes care of that thanks all the same . In regards to the blood cells doing their thing, they are designed to do their thing, just as the whole mind-body construct is designed to carry out certain functions . For the blood cells to carry out there duties is not likened to one having a thought about having a cup of tea or not . One has to have the thought to have a cup of tea and then get off their butt and put the kettle on . The legs don't respond on their own merits in regards to getting up through having some kind of memory that they have to walk to the kitchen in order to put the kettle on . If the spirit was not of the body, like when a peep is asleep then why doesn't the body cells move out of the way of danger? It doesn't because the ship requires a conscious captain at the helm in order to steer the ship out of dangers way . I understand what you have been saying for the record I just don't agree with what you say and have given my reasons for why, I can also appreciate what you say as much as you can appreciate what I say . I didn't however appreciate the ironic pointers made and ignoring what I had asked / suggested as previously stated butt I am not losing any sleep over it .. It's kinda like if I clap suddenly and unexpectedly near your face, you jolt your head back and blink to protect your eyes. You already moved before you thought of anything. It's really the same as your breathing. You don't learn and practice that, but you can hold your breath or breathe faster, slower, deeper shallower - but that's when you think about breathing. When you don't think about it you already know how to breathe. Same as walking. You aren't born with it, but like a horse learns to walk in an hour, we learn to walk in a year. We arn't born with the strength, so we go through a process of lying, pushing and kicking, crawling, then walking. As soon as we have the strength and balance we are off and running. Yes you remember it, but you don;t have to think about walking. For example, if I say raise your hand above your head, you don't think, 'bend elbow, rotate shoulder, extend elbow and shoulder upward'. You just think hand above head and it moves accordingly with perfect fluidity. Similarly, when you want a cuppa tea, you don't think about walking. You 'just do it'. Now honestly, when an elephant charges you, your reflexes kick in just like the do when I clap up near your face, and you are already moving reflexively, and without thinking any more that if you were to raise a hand overhead. I have heard of theories about becoming aware of stuff prior to the brain aspect kicking in . I can relate to that and agree with that in certain instances . A thought is a thought however and as said before I don't relate to thought as just a mechanic process of intellectual chatter / evaluation . I have probably written a dozen or more posts explaining this in detail . We can call the instant reaction had as awareness based if you like but there has to be the thought / acknowledgement of what one is made aware of even if it is on a subconscious level, or on an intuitive level . In regards to the horses walking and the humans breathing, lets see the body cells carrying out there tasks without the conscious - aware - spirit of the mind-body present . This is absolute key to the proceedings because the intelligence at play with the spirit of the body is what breathes life to everything of the body including the cells . Take the spirit out of the equation and the body cells won't move you out of the way of an oncoming elephant . The intelligence / essence of the spirit allows all the activities and functions to continue asleep or awake . What happens when the spirit is o.b.e. reveals what the cells of the body can and cannot do .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 7:32:26 GMT -5
It is good when you start to admit what you want from these exchanges. Do you see all of your ideas as solid facts? I think most peeps in general when they chat on the forums want the other party to speak honestly and not to ignore what was said or asked of them time and time again . In regards to my ideas as being solid facts, I would say that most of what I say is basic common sense and such things I say can be tried and tested . Do you for instance have a thought about having a cup of tea prior to you getting up and walking to the kitchen or do your legs move on there own for no apparent reason and head to the kitchen and you then wonder why your standing in the kitchen? Then say I know, while I am here I might as well put the kettle on . Have you ever moved out of the way of an elephant while you were asleep? Your answers to both questions could reflect a solid matter of fact but won't carry much weight in a dream world that pertains to dream characters that can't even perceive the imaginary elephant . This is why we need a sound footing to begin with cos nuffin means or stands for nuffin otherwise . So in a forum about teachers that understand and recognise an energetic reality, you want to talk about the process of making a cup of tea and imaginary elephants? And you see this as 'basic common sense'. Do I have that right?
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 7:36:27 GMT -5
I think most peeps in general when they chat on the forums want the other party to speak honestly and not to ignore what was said or asked of them time and time again . In regards to my ideas as being solid facts, I would say that most of what I say is basic common sense and such things I say can be tried and tested . Do you for instance have a thought about having a cup of tea prior to you getting up and walking to the kitchen or do your legs move on there own for no apparent reason and head to the kitchen and you then wonder why your standing in the kitchen? Then say I know, while I am here I might as well put the kettle on . Have you ever moved out of the way of an elephant while you were asleep? Your answers to both questions could reflect a solid matter of fact but won't carry much weight in a dream world that pertains to dream characters that can't even perceive the imaginary elephant . This is why we need a sound footing to begin with cos nuffin means or stands for nuffin otherwise . So in a forum about teachers that understand and recognise an energetic reality, you want to talk about the process of making a cup of tea and imaginary elephants? And you see this as 'basic common sense'. Do I have that right? I use elephants and cups of tea analogies in order to describe things in ways that we can all understand . Even masters have cups of tea and have perceived elephants . For the record which is it regarding the tea making? Do you have a thought of tea prior to moving your legs or do your legs start walking before the thought of tea?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 7:40:46 GMT -5
It's kinda like if I clap suddenly and unexpectedly near your face, you jolt your head back and blink to protect your eyes. You already moved before you thought of anything. It's really the same as your breathing. You don't learn and practice that, but you can hold your breath or breathe faster, slower, deeper shallower - but that's when you think about breathing. When you don't think about it you already know how to breathe. Same as walking. You aren't born with it, but like a horse learns to walk in an hour, we learn to walk in a year. We arn't born with the strength, so we go through a process of lying, pushing and kicking, crawling, then walking. As soon as we have the strength and balance we are off and running. Yes you remember it, but you don;t have to think about walking. For example, if I say raise your hand above your head, you don't think, 'bend elbow, rotate shoulder, extend elbow and shoulder upward'. You just think hand above head and it moves accordingly with perfect fluidity. Similarly, when you want a cuppa tea, you don't think about walking. You 'just do it'. Now honestly, when an elephant charges you, your reflexes kick in just like the do when I clap up near your face, and you are already moving reflexively, and without thinking any more that if you were to raise a hand overhead. I have heard of theories about becoming aware of stuff prior to the brain aspect kicking in . I can relate to that and agree with that in certain instances . A thought is a thought however and as said before I don't relate to thought as just a mechanic process of intellectual chatter / evaluation . I have probably written a dozen or more posts explaining this in detail . We can call the instant reaction had as awareness based if you like but there has to be the thought / acknowledgement of what one is made aware of even if it is on a subconscious level, or on an intuitive level . In regards to the horses walking and the humans breathing, lets see the body cells carrying out there tasks without the conscious - aware - spirit of the mind-body present . This is absolute key to the proceedings because the intelligence at play with the spirit of the body is what breathes life to everything of the body including the cells . Take the spirit out of the equation and the body cells won't move you out of the way of an oncoming elephant . The intelligence / essence of the spirit allows all the activities and functions to continue asleep or awake . What happens when the spirit is o.b.e. reveals what the cells of the body can and cannot do . Reflexes are theory to you?
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 7:42:19 GMT -5
I have heard of theories about becoming aware of stuff prior to the brain aspect kicking in . I can relate to that and agree with that in certain instances . A thought is a thought however and as said before I don't relate to thought as just a mechanic process of intellectual chatter / evaluation . I have probably written a dozen or more posts explaining this in detail . We can call the instant reaction had as awareness based if you like but there has to be the thought / acknowledgement of what one is made aware of even if it is on a subconscious level, or on an intuitive level . In regards to the horses walking and the humans breathing, lets see the body cells carrying out there tasks without the conscious - aware - spirit of the mind-body present . This is absolute key to the proceedings because the intelligence at play with the spirit of the body is what breathes life to everything of the body including the cells . Take the spirit out of the equation and the body cells won't move you out of the way of an oncoming elephant . The intelligence / essence of the spirit allows all the activities and functions to continue asleep or awake . What happens when the spirit is o.b.e. reveals what the cells of the body can and cannot do . Reflexes are theory to you? I said I have heard of theories ..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 7:43:38 GMT -5
So in a forum about teachers that understand and recognise an energetic reality, you want to talk about the process of making a cup of tea and imaginary elephants? And you see this as 'basic common sense'. Do I have that right? I use elephants and cups of tea analogies in order to describe things in ways that we can all understand . Even masters have cups of tea and have perceived elephants . For the record which is it regarding the tea making?
Do you have a thought of tea prior to moving your legs or do your legs start walking before the thought of tea?And this is the point where you dig your heels. If I don't answer your questions you start to spiral.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 7:44:37 GMT -5
Reflexes are theory to you? I said I have heard of theories .. Yes. I read what you said and that is why I asked whether reflexes are a theory or a solid fact to you?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 7:51:08 GMT -5
Consciousness is not a perceiver, neither is Awareness. Awareness is the act of being aware. Consciousness is the act of being conscious. To assign either to one who is perceiving, or one who knows, would be a mistake. Is this not I have been arguing with you in the past that Perciever is not the entity but act of perceiving? You continued to deny with me,eh? Is this not I said you that Perceiver can't perceive nothing because Perceiver is an act which can't be separated from perceived? eh? It's not that "Perceiver can't perceive nothing..", it's that perception happens. Or perception is happening. The step into identification as 'Perceiver' is psychological and although automatic, it isn't necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 8:01:22 GMT -5
I asked you straightforward questions that related to your theories being of the mind that is not of the silence and I spoke to you about the reality of the elephant squashing you regardless of what you think of it . There were no answers to these questions but rather more pointers, pointing me to the silence . The silence as said many times is not where your theories have derived from . The silence will not save you from the elephant . You didn't comment on any of these matters . Suggesting I made no attempt to understand what you explained is ridiculous based upon you not acknowledging a world I initially said . All I wanted was acknowledgement to these facts . ... It's kinda like if I clap suddenly and unexpectedly near your face, you jolt your head back and blink to protect your eyes. You already moved before you thought of anything. It's really the same as your breathing. You don't learn and practice that, but you can hold your breath or breathe faster, slower, deeper shallower - but that's when you think about breathing. When you don't think about it you already know how to breathe. Same as walking. You aren't born with it, but like a horse learns to walk in an hour, we learn to walk in a year. We arn't born with the strength, so we go through a process of lying, pushing and kicking, crawling, then walking. As soon as we have the strength and balance we are off and running. Yes you remember it, but you don;t have to think about walking. For example, if I say raise your hand above your head, you don't think, 'bend elbow, rotate shoulder, extend elbow and shoulder upward'. You just think hand above head and it moves accordingly with perfect fluidity. Similarly, when you want a cuppa tea, you don't think about walking. You 'just do it'. Now honestly, when an elephant charges you, your reflexes kick in just like the do when I clap up near your face, and you are already moving reflexively, and without thinking any more that if you were to raise a hand overhead. Ah, yeah, but.. there's the resistance of not wanting to do what another has asked. It can take awhile to get through that.
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 8:11:33 GMT -5
I use elephants and cups of tea analogies in order to describe things in ways that we can all understand . Even masters have cups of tea and have perceived elephants . For the record which is it regarding the tea making?
Do you have a thought of tea prior to moving your legs or do your legs start walking before the thought of tea?And this is the point where you dig your heels. If I don't answer your questions you start to spiral. Well it would be nice for you to answer, after all you said It is good when peeps start to admit what that want from their exchanges. I said that my understandings can be easily tried and tested . If you don't want to admit either way that's your prerogative but it makes no sense to me for why anyone would be reluctant to say how it is for them .. If you try it and test my theory then you will have your answer . I would say that your answer is the same as mine and all that try it . This can be classed as something factual as already said in regards to your question I answered . Why there would be a potential issue in regards to a peep not revealing what was experienced is just kinda weird to me . It's like why on earth would someone for examples sake keep on avoiding answering a straightforward question like this? What are they trying to hide? What would be gained by ignoring the question? That's what I ask myself in all these situations that I find myself experiencing on the forums .
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Post by tenka on Dec 7, 2018 8:16:11 GMT -5
I said I have heard of theories .. Yes. I read what you said and that is why I asked whether reflexes are a theory or a solid fact to you? Well you actually just said 'Reflexes are theory to you'? I thought you inferred / meant that reflexes aren't actual in my eyes it's just a theory .. The theory that relates to reflexes in the way that loz implied seems to stack up in my eyes . It certainly is one explanation of why someone suddenly reacts to a situation prior to having a good old think about what is transpiring or what has happened .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 8:19:55 GMT -5
Yes. I read what you said and that is why I asked whether reflexes are a theory or a solid fact to you? Well you actually just said 'Reflexes are theory to you'? I thought you inferred / meant that reflexes aren't actual in my eyes it's just a theory .. The theory that relates to reflexes in the way that loz implied seems to stack up in my eyes .It certainly is one explanation of why someone suddenly reacts to a situation prior to having a good old think about what is transpiring or what has happened . The bodies reflexes are not theory. Did you never play any sports?
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