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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 0:18:59 GMT -5
I don't suppose it would be joyful, but I have no reason to believe there would be no sense of time, and I see no reason to believe the absence of structure would result in no experience. I just explained. If you explained why 2+2=4 and then I said I see no reason to believe that the answer is 4, you would wonder what I didn't understand. Same here....I don't understand what you didn't understand. So, what you're saying is so blatantly obvious that it's incomprehensible that I wouldn't agree? Is that what you're saying? A random, unpredictable, incoherent experience is still an experience. Your notion that there would not be a sense of time would be a different matter, but I have no reason to believe there would not be.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 0:25:36 GMT -5
You can't not have a thought of I AM . No-one has spoken of relative thinking . You don't need to chatter about the elephant, you see it in reflection of I AM as a thought . Your still seeing the thought of I AM as something more than it has to be . TMJ. If we look, we see ________________. No more, no less. TemporoMandibular Joints? Too Much Jocularity? Turtle Management Jurisdiction?
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 0:28:34 GMT -5
It's true that you just posted on a forum. It's true that women don't tend to give birth to tanks, and that busses can kill and butterflies can't. It's a relative truth. I think Tenka has been trying to prove these truths to me for a year. Okay, 'relative truth'. So if someone states the truth that 'everything is alive/conscious', then you can argue with that truth and attempt to show why it's NOT true, but bringing 'Truthiness' into it would be a mistake, unless you think it is being stated as Absolute Truth. Fine, do you have scientific evidence that rocks are alive and conscious? That's going to be required to confirm relative truth.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 0:35:04 GMT -5
All million times that I have said, nothing in the dream can say anything true about what's prior to the dream, I've implied there is a relative truth. I've been saying that for years. You listen as badly as Tenka does. What I have heard you say in the last months is a bit different. What I have heard you say is that what you perceive and which 'appears' to be true (in the dream), may not be 'actually' true i.e your perception may not be detecting the 'objective truth' of what is the case. For example, it 'appears' that Marie is a thinking, feeling, breathing human being.....but ' actually' she may be a tank. I'm not sure what you think people have said is true about something in the dream, that would then be necessarily true about what is beyond the dream. Are you thinking that people have said something like, 'because I, as an individual, am aware, therefore what is prior to I, is also aware'? If so, that's not what people have said. You've never heard me say that. You heard me say nothing in the dream can say anything true about what's prior to the dream.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 9, 2018 0:40:22 GMT -5
As I already told you, I want to give up this argument with you. You perceive reality differently and I perceive differently. God has fallen into the dream doesn't fit with me. Frustrating, isn't it? No, it's not frustrating, but I see why this argument continues to happen. When I try to prove something, I project people with opposing idea for argument. I know it doesn't make any sense for you. But I can understand you from your level.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 9, 2018 0:41:42 GMT -5
I completely agree with you because the same happens in my life as well, the movement of polarity is in need of such a frustration is what I think. But what ZD calls as realization doesn't fit with me unfortunately. May be what he calls realization something different! Anger seems to involve a judgment about other or others, while frustration involves the thwarting of intent. No personal judgment involved, but if there is the movement to engage the dream with purpose, and this movement is repeatedly blocked, it can result in frustration. Perhaps frustration is being mislabeled as anger. I dunno. NO, It can be clearly distinguished from one another. Anger is something completely different from frustration.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 9, 2018 0:43:50 GMT -5
But in the place of other perceivers. Well, I dunno' man, it seems like that's part of the disagreement too. .. but that doesn't mean you don't find consensus there on some level in some fashion, so, ok. I say outer world doesn't exist. I say everything exist in perception. I say I can't know whether I have other perceiving view point. They agree with me in all three view point.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 0:52:09 GMT -5
I am not a liar and i'll ask you to be very careful. You rarely understand what I'm saying no matter how clearly I try to say it. I'm not to blame for that. I stick to what I have said thanks .. You have completely said the opposite more than a few times before and then you deny doing so . and another thing while we are at it .. If I am a liar for saying this then you are a liar based upon the ridiculous claim of yours that the meaning behind everything is what you are means that I am responsible for everything and you are responsible for everything . This is why fools rush in when they don't understand what they are saying isn't it, when all they have on their mind is an agenda. For me to be wrong about something means that you are, If I am responsible for spilling my tea, you are .. It's a load of old rubbish .. You've misunderstood. It's just what you do when you have an agenda to fight for, but when you start blaming others for your inability (or unwillingness) to understand, then it starts to get ugly. So I ask you to be careful. Yes, ultimately what we are is responsible for everything, because we are the Intelligence that drives all behavior. How is it that you manage to separate what you are from the bad things people do while claiming there is just what you are? What do YOU think that means?
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Post by lolly on Nov 9, 2018 1:04:20 GMT -5
Anger seems to involve a judgment about other or others, while frustration involves the thwarting of intent. No personal judgment involved, but if there is the movement to engage the dream with purpose, and this movement is repeatedly blocked, it can result in frustration. Perhaps frustration is being mislabeled as anger. I dunno. NO, It can be clearly distinguished from one another. Anger is something completely different from frustration. 'Frustration' is mild and 'anger' is more extreme, but the spectrum is degrees of adverse reactivity.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 1:07:38 GMT -5
Frustrating, isn't it? No, it's not frustrating, but I see why this argument continues to happen. When I try to prove something, I project people with opposing idea for argument. I know it doesn't make any sense for you. But I can understand you from your level. TMJ You're just describing the function of discussion. You present an idea, others may disagree, and you end the discussion. Well, the last part isn't normally part of the function of discussion, but you get the idea.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 1:12:13 GMT -5
Anger seems to involve a judgment about other or others, while frustration involves the thwarting of intent. No personal judgment involved, but if there is the movement to engage the dream with purpose, and this movement is repeatedly blocked, it can result in frustration. Perhaps frustration is being mislabeled as anger. I dunno. NO, It can be clearly distinguished from one another. Anger is something completely different from frustration. I didn't say they were the same.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 9, 2018 1:27:52 GMT -5
No, it's not frustrating, but I see why this argument continues to happen. When I try to prove something, I project people with opposing idea for argument. I know it doesn't make any sense for you. But I can understand you from your level. TMJ You're just describing the function of discussion. You present an idea, others may disagree, and you end the discussion. Well, the last part isn't normally part of the function of discussion, but you get the idea. I am not disagreeing with the discussion that I have started yesterday but years ago.
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Post by Gopal on Nov 9, 2018 1:28:08 GMT -5
NO, It can be clearly distinguished from one another. Anger is something completely different from frustration. I didn't say they were the same. okay.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 1:28:51 GMT -5
I understand your frustration. I have a similar impression just from reading along only, but it would be a bit difficult to post some actual quotes that show the contradictions. Because what I've noticed about his style is that he very often doesn't answer questions directly. So you have to infer what he's actually trying to say from what he has said. Which is an invitation to misinterpretation. And some of his replies seem extremely vague, too. Very often it seems one could interpret what he has said either way. And peeps regularly do that. And so what could be sorted out in a couple of posts drags on and on for years, it seems. So do you guys have some actual quotes? It would be interesting to see if he actually does goe back and forth. I've got one quote here re: Tenka's claim that Enigma 'only guesses his wife is real': There's a whole lot of assumptions in that statement, actually. And this is also the kind of statement that tells me that the realization he speaks of doesn't really carry over into daily life. I find his answer is quite straightforward and easy to understand. Perhaps, If you are interested, I would like to clarify his view! Which one of his answer is not clear? please let me know, I will help you to understand. Perhaps when I clarify for you, he may reply to me that whether I have done it correctly or not. It's the agendas that peeps have that make me sound inconsistent or contradictory or dodging or lying. It shouldn't be necessary for me to talk about what I didn't say, and yet at times I spend most of time doing that.
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Post by enigma on Nov 9, 2018 1:32:58 GMT -5
It's true that women don't tend to give birth to tanks, and that busses can kill and butterflies can't. There you go again, limiting the possibilities in a world where anything is possible (a basic realization) Girl Dies After Swallowing A ButterflyGod works in mysterious ways.
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