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Post by enigma on Sept 23, 2016 22:12:44 GMT -5
It's actually true that Consciousness(singular) is the same Consciousness as the Consciousness in the individual. That doesn't make it divided, rather it makes it one. Are there individuated decisions? If not then what is the purpose of individuation? The purpose of individuation is to form an experience; an individuated perspective. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 23, 2016 22:20:20 GMT -5
There is no exterior world, and it's critical to understand context. I think you are taking this dream analogy thingy way to seriously, it's an analogy, our world is not a dream world, All This is not Consciousness dreaming. We don't wake up in a dream, we wake up from a dream (and into the real world). Some important teacher (I'm thinking it was Balsekar) said that when we wake up in the morning, we're actually going to sleep. when we go to sleep, we awaken. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 23, 2016 22:25:34 GMT -5
There is relative appearance. There is relative experience. There is no external world. There is no inside/outside. This is why there is nothing separate from Consciousness. No-separation is a radical thing. It doesn't mean physical matter is somehow infused with consciousness or that everything is connected in various ways. It means everything IS Consciousness. There is only Consciousness. You are THAT! (For Andrew)  Does this way of seeing things, or theorising about them,have any practical value?If yes, what is it? Some would say that realizing the truth of Oneness is not different from enlightenment. To know oneness is to know yourself. That may not be practical enough for you. It's true it won't pay your bills. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 23, 2016 22:32:30 GMT -5
Multiple viewpoints can happen, and almost certainly does, but it is an assumption. (Not one I lose much sleep over.) , but I'm not going to lose sleep over that. I'm more likely to lose sleep if you locate viewpoint/s at the level of 'the undivided'. A rock is also an expression of consciousness, but surely you can see it is not a 'viewpoint'. |
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Post by enigma on Sept 23, 2016 22:34:51 GMT -5
Time is an illusion. We don't have to talk about it. If time is an illusion everything is an illusion. Time is subjective. Everything that is seen as other than it is, is an illusion to the one seeing it. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 23, 2016 23:33:31 GMT -5
If individuations don't come from Consciousness, then where do they come from? Or at what point does Consciousness become individuation? Individuations appear in Consciousness. Are you following along,like, at all? Does appear mean the same as comes from? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 23:52:57 GMT -5
So Augustine developed the idea of Original sin? Yes, as the Western church now understands and uses the term. Augustine distorted certain scripture, read into it what it didn't say. I wrestled with this about 30 years ago, and came to see his error, and afterwards learned about the view of Eastern Orthodox theologians, and later learned Pelagius was a Celtic Christian. And even later learned of this one word translated incorrectly. The word the in the Vulgate (Jerome, Latin Bible) got wrong. It said, [Adam], in whom we have all sinned. But the Greek says: in that we have all sinned. (Romans 12) Augustine thus invented the idea that we all in some kind of genetic sense we all inherit the sin of Adam and thus everybody is born physically, spiritually dead. It's just nonsense. First of all Original sin concept is not coming from Augustine, it's coming from Paul, Augustine re-write what Paul told. Augustine confirmed many concepts of Paul, One among them was Predestination. Jesus death brings the salvation to every one, this is directly connected to Original Sin. If Original Sin is wrong, then Jesus has to die for each and every person. Then Logic goes wrong. We are talking according to bible now, not according to what I believe or you believe so don't start your argument like "that's wrong, because that can't be". |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:06:49 GMT -5
Well, the problem is in the careless way in which Pilgrim defined illusion, but you raise an interesting question. If we say there is just one perceiver, then appearance and actuality are the same, but if there are multiple perceivers (which we assume there are) then there is a kind of 'consensus actuality' which a particular individuation may or may may not see as such. In that case, one may mistake a tree for a giraffe, and this would be an illusion. The world is a subjective creation, but the subject is Consciousness as a whole rather than the individual, which is one of the creations. I merely gave one example of an illusion. There are multiple other kinds of illusions. I have studied perception pretty extensively. The problem is we never see merely what's exterior. An individual brain (a person) constructs the perception. The brain is a prediction-making organ. It takes in information, and ~compares~ that information to what's already is "file". And more than that, it takes the data (bottom-up), and adds to it (top-down, info already logged in the brain from previous experience). The snake-rope is a perfect example. The brain takes in info, partial info, it is actually a stick, but the size, the way it is laying, the brain compares that info to the snake file, and the snake file adds that info to the incoming data, and the brain pictures, snake!! and one can actually see a snake, because the brain actually pictures snake, the brain makes a picture, a representation, snake. When more data is sent to the brain, it will compare this new data to stick information from previous experience, now stored. And then the brain will see stick. And then you will say, what was i thinking, it wasn't a snake after all. Interesting, But the entire drama is happening in our nightly dream as well, we are seeing an object and mistaken for something else but when we have a closer look we start to identify the correct Object, right? But you know in dream we are not receiving the data through our eye but still all these things continue to happen. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:08:54 GMT -5
Because. Consciousness. Is. Not. A. Peeeeeer-son.  Are you or are you not saying, that, in a manner of speaking, people are ~made-out-of~ consciousness?  He is not saying we are made of out of consciousness, he is saying that what you are is consciousness and everything else is appearing. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:15:38 GMT -5
There is a sharp difference between equating the experience with truth and Observing the greater movement of universe. Not if it's a conclusion drawn from your experience. Controlling repeating by influencing it's own opposite, I am directly seeing this from my experience, is this a fault? I am seeing happy creates unhappy and unhappy creates happy, Is this faulty realization? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:17:11 GMT -5
Problem is, that an image is known by the qualities it has, and the ones it doesn't have. Without that, there is no image basically. Another problem is that an appearance is not generally just a two dimensional image, as the mirror analogy implies. We interact with appearances as they appear to all of the senses. The whole appearance is 2D Image, not 3D. When you change 2D focuses, you would have 3D experience. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:22:11 GMT -5
No, he is disagreeing with you right now, in my last post I'm trying to point this out. What you conclude or assume about the appearance is not actually appearing, except as a thought about the appearance. Why do such simple statements made by Gopal turn into month long discussions?  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:58:21 GMT -5
The therapist works with his or her patients spirit. Opening the door to pre-mind consciousness permits insights to occur. Sure, but when the therapist think an over cloaking spirit is a past life, and the reason for the spirit is unhealed emotion, therapists can actually profit from a never ending series of spirits cloaking a patient with lots of trajectory alteration and no true healing. Sure, most therapists want to pay rent, buy toilet paper etc; most are into Money. True healing is what we do for OURSELF therapist of NOT. Peace. Touch an Talk is best. |
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Post by lolly on Sept 24, 2016 2:23:12 GMT -5
Individuations appear in Consciousness. Are you following along,like, at all? Does appear mean the same as comes from? Words are like cards in a card game. There are ace-words which trump the rest. Different social contexts are like different card games, but basically, regardless of the game, people play to win. In the spiritual teachers social context 'consciousness' is an ace-word, and 'appearance' is also a very strong suit. The winning hand, therefore, is like, 'appearance in consciousness'. However, that is only in one game. In another social context (another game), that same hand would be a losing one. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 24, 2016 2:28:18 GMT -5
I think you've changed context there...I'm noticing a capitalized letter, which usually means we are back in pointy land. So I'll jump context with you. 'Truth' points prior to mental polarities such as true/false. Hence, again, confusion can usefully precede Truth Realization, coz the last thing we want to happen is to land on a true answer in our search for Truth Realization. If that's the best that you can write after all these years then give it up, really. Truth is Alive, and there isn't anything alive in your understanding. And as I've said,my impression when you speak, is that you are trying to speak with an authentic voice, and it comes across to me as somewhat....precocious...like a kid trying to be a grown up. You speak of spontaneity but i find little that is spontaneous about your expression. To say Truth is alive is yet another cliche basically. Truth is not alive, its a conceptual pointer. Life is alive, and that's self evident. |
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