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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2016 16:15:06 GMT -5
OK, sorry, using to many words (Source = Ground [of Being]). Picture three levels (the famous three-layer cake). Top layer, Source. Bottom layer, the physical universe, which includes physical bodies. Source is ~planted~ in a physical body (conception occurs). A human being is born. The human being is not wholly Source (God), not wholly physical (an animal). A human being is a third ~thingy~/being with its own identity. The identity of a human being does not equate to God/Source. As I see it, regardless of layers, IF there 'a ground of all being' referenced, no matter how many layers are in between, none of them can be fundamentally anything other than that. Do you see ground of being as giving rise to all of it? Yes, of course, Ground of Being is the ground of everything (meaning, nothing can exist outside the Ground of Being). Think of my earlier description of man as the middle layer as DNA. A baby gets 1/2 of its DNA from mother, 1/2 from father. So baby is a ~mixture~ of mother and father. In the same manner, by analogy, a human being gets 1/2 its DNA from "God", 1/2 from "Mother Earth". So, a human being is 1/2 "God" 1/2 "animal" (so-to-speak). So, a human being is not "fundamentally anything other than that" (because 1/2 comes from Mother Nature). I repeat, non-dual "teaching" does not explain the world for me. If we continue this we should start another thread. ......This (last few posts) is essentially a Jewish (Kabbalistic/metaphysical) description, and Eastern Orthodox description, a Gurdjieff description, of man's anthropology (and somewhat Sufi/Muslim). |
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Post by andrew on Sept 21, 2016 16:20:38 GMT -5
Yes, individual responsibility is a useful idea, but there is also the recognition that their context was such that there wasn't any other choice available. In the case of Hitler, it is really quite obvious that he thought he was doing the right thing. I take individual responsibility by recognizing my role in creating these expressions, so I heal the Hitler and Charles within me.
That's just nonsense. Sure, Hitler thought he was doing right, but what does that have to do with anything? All this is why non-volition is nonsense. A human being is a point of decision, a maker of decisions, that's what a human being is. We are here to learn to make good decisions, and for that accountability is necessary, for that karma is necessary. Life is a school. The idea of non-volition removes accountability. The earth is in pretty bad shape right now, ecologically and psychologically. But it's not because it's inevitable because of the natural flow of All That Is. It's because people fork up. Charlie and Hitler get healed by changing, by ceasing to be what they are. But yes, we all have to clean up our own stuff. But this is not easy. It is very easy to go with the flow. It's not so easy to go against the flow of the nasty stuff in ourselves and the nasty stuff in the world. To say it's all just a flow is to escape our responsibility, but yes, "We are the World", but that doesn't remove our accountability. If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo |
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Post by figgles on Sept 21, 2016 16:20:46 GMT -5
Yes, individual responsibility is a useful idea, but there is also the recognition that their context was such that there wasn't any other choice available. In the case of Hitler, it is really quite obvious that he thought he was doing the right thing. I take individual responsibility by recognizing my role in creating these expressions, so I heal the Hitler and Charles within me.
That's just nonsense. Sure, Hitler thought he was doing right, but what does that have to do with anything? All this is why non-volition is nonsense. A human being is a point of decision, a maker of decisions, that's what a human being is. We are here to learn to make good decisions, and for that accountability is necessary, for that karma is necessary. Life is a school. The idea of non-volition removes accountability. The earth is in pretty bad shape right now, ecologically and psychologically. But it's not because it's inevitable because of the natural flow of All That Is. It's because people fork up. Charlie and Hitler get healed by changing, by ceasing to be what they are. But yes, we all have to clean up our own stuff. But this is not easy. It is very easy to go with the flow. It's not so easy to go against the flow of the nasty stuff in ourselves and the nasty stuff in the world. To say it's all just a flow is to escape our responsibility, but yes, "We are the World", but that doesn't remove our accountability. Every decision ever made, gets made according to whatever interest/desire is strongest in that moment. No one chooses those interests, and whatever the overriding interest is in any given moment, gets acted upon. Interests cannot be bucked. What looks like a 'good decision' to do the kind/right thing is really just the playing out of the highest interest. No one chooses to desire to be a monster. |
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Post by figgles on Sept 21, 2016 16:25:55 GMT -5
As I see it, regardless of layers, IF there 'a ground of all being' referenced, no matter how many layers are in between, none of them can be fundamentally anything other than that. Do you see ground of being as giving rise to all of it? Yes, of course, Ground of Being is the ground of everything (meaning, nothing can exist outside the Ground of Being). Think of my earlier description of man as the middle layer as DNA. A baby gets 1/2 of its DNA from mother, 1/2 from father. So baby is a ~mixture~ of mother and father. In the same manner, by analogy, a human being gets 1/2 its DNA from "God", 1/2 from "Mother Earth". So, a human being is 1/2 "God" 1/2 "animal" (so-to-speak). So, a human being is not "fundamentally anything other than that" (because 1/2 comes from Mother Nature).I repeat, non-dual "teaching" does not explain the world for me. If we continue this we should start another thread. ......This (last few posts) is essentially a Jewish (Kabbalistic/metaphysical) description, and Eastern Orthodox description, a Gurdjieff description, of man's anthropology (and somewhat Sufi/Muslim). So Mother Nature does not arise from the same Source/Ground of being, but rather is a Source/God unto itself? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2016 16:31:05 GMT -5
That's just nonsense. Sure, Hitler thought he was doing right, but what does that have to do with anything? All this is why non-volition is nonsense. A human being is a point of decision, a maker of decisions, that's what a human being is. We are here to learn to make good decisions, and for that accountability is necessary, for that karma is necessary. Life is a school. The idea of non-volition removes accountability. The earth is in pretty bad shape right now, ecologically and psychologically. But it's not because it's inevitable because of the natural flow of All That Is. It's because people fork up. Charlie and Hitler get healed by changing, by ceasing to be what they are. But yes, we all have to clean up our own stuff. But this is not easy. It is very easy to go with the flow. It's not so easy to go against the flow of the nasty stuff in ourselves and the nasty stuff in the world. To say it's all just a flow is to escape our responsibility, but yes, "We are the World", but that doesn't remove our accountability. If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo But the point is we are not our conditioning. Our conditioning presents a false sense of self. So a whole long chain of nasty conditioning made Hitler. But the fact Hitler thought he was doing right does not negate any responsibility for killing millions of people. The fact Hitler believed he was doing right just means he was conditioned miserably. Until Trump has come to power like he has, I couldn't understand how the German people put Hitler into power. Now I understand perfectly how it happened. Now I can't believe America is in the position of having to choose between Hillary and Trump, it's quite bizarre, but it is what it is. But the American people have made this choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 16:31:06 GMT -5
I don't think it is.  Calming down is a body language thing. If the one offering the suggestion to calm down can extend their left hand into the moment, the suggestion can then be felt and respect can flood the air. Instigating a calming down in both tolder and toldee. I didn't see anyone particularly excited or riled up there though, did you? I see dusty riled up.. though that's probably due to the stress he's carrying as a carer. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2016 16:45:11 GMT -5
Yes, of course, Ground of Being is the ground of everything (meaning, nothing can exist outside the Ground of Being). Think of my earlier description of man as the middle layer as DNA. A baby gets 1/2 of its DNA from mother, 1/2 from father. So baby is a ~mixture~ of mother and father. In the same manner, by analogy, a human being gets 1/2 its DNA from "God", 1/2 from "Mother Earth". So, a human being is 1/2 "God" 1/2 "animal" (so-to-speak). So, a human being is not "fundamentally anything other than that" (because 1/2 comes from Mother Nature).I repeat, non-dual "teaching" does not explain the world for me. If we continue this we should start another thread. ......This (last few posts) is essentially a Jewish (Kabbalistic/metaphysical) description, and Eastern Orthodox description, a Gurdjieff description, of man's anthropology (and somewhat Sufi/Muslim). So Mother Nature does not arise from the same Source/Ground of being, but rather is a Source/God unto itself? From Kabbalah. Originally, God existed as All, the unmanifest. In order for the world to manifest, God had to ~make a place~ where God was not. So, God withdrew his presence from a certain ~space~, and in that space, created the physical universe. So, there is the unmanifest, and the manifest. The manifest world is the world of duality. There is much more to the story, but that's basically it. This place of withdrawal is written about as a single point (by the Ari, Isaac Luria, a couple hundred years ago), so it matches perfectly with the Big Bang. .....Some Kabbalists say the world is created. Some Kabbalists are non-dualists and say the universe is a manifestation of God (in the sense of a step-down transformer, a series of stepping down, in a kind of sense diluting God). But no, creation is not another power/thing apart from God, not a Source/God unto itself. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 21, 2016 16:45:24 GMT -5
If you think you are doing right, that's what you do! Hitler believed he was doing what was right for his country, probably even the world. People do fork up, I agree, but I see it as collective and individual fork up lol. Although we have the ability to choose, we are also driven by very powerful forces that govern our choices... in terms of conditioned beliefs, bio-chemistry and dna. I believe that volition is a very practical solution though, and responsibility and accountability is important. The old saying....'don't judge until you have walked a mile in their shoes' is still a good one imo But the point is we are not our conditioning. Our conditioning presents a false sense of self. So a whole long chain of nasty conditioning made Hitler. But the fact Hitler thought he was doing right does not negate any responsibility for killing millions of people. The fact Hitler believed he was doing right just means he was conditioned miserably. Until Trump has come to power like he has, I couldn't understand how the German people put Hitler into power. Now I understand perfectly how it happened. Now I can't believe America is in the position of having to choose between Hillary and Trump, it's quite bizarre, but it is what it is. But the American people have made this choice. yeah current political situations in general do shed a bit of light on how someone like Hitler could come to power. The American people have made their choice, but maybe this will be the last time that they given themselves such a poor selection. Sometimes a limit has to be reached before change can happen. I'm not saying that we are our conditioning to be clear, only that there are always forces in play that we can't really ignore. How do we separate out our actions from each other? Like you, I see responsibility as key, but what determines whether one takes responsibility? Maybe we are the lucky ones in that we can choose to take some responsibility. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2016 16:46:40 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone particularly excited or riled up there though, did you? I see dusty riled up.. though that's probably due to the stress he's carrying as a carer. No, not riled up, I know I'm pretty alone here in my view of reality. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 21, 2016 16:49:54 GMT -5
That's just nonsense. Sure, Hitler thought he was doing right, but what does that have to do with anything? All this is why non-volition is nonsense. A human being is a point of decision, a maker of decisions, that's what a human being is. We are here to learn to make good decisions, and for that accountability is necessary, for that karma is necessary. Life is a school. The idea of non-volition removes accountability. The earth is in pretty bad shape right now, ecologically and psychologically. But it's not because it's inevitable because of the natural flow of All That Is. It's because people fork up. Charlie and Hitler get healed by changing, by ceasing to be what they are. But yes, we all have to clean up our own stuff. But this is not easy. It is very easy to go with the flow. It's not so easy to go against the flow of the nasty stuff in ourselves and the nasty stuff in the world. To say it's all just a flow is to escape our responsibility, but yes, "We are the World", but that doesn't remove our accountability. Every decision ever made, gets made according to whatever interest/desire is strongest in that moment. No one chooses those interests, and whatever the overriding interest is in any given moment, gets acted upon. Interests cannot be bucked. What looks like a 'good decision' to do the kind/right thing is really just the playing out of the highest interest. No one chooses to desire to be a monster. Agree. ......Alpha Dog has been on my movie list a long time, just watched it yesterday. Your post is a pretty good description of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 16:57:37 GMT -5
I see dusty riled up.. though that's probably due to the stress he's carrying as a carer. No, not riled up, I know I'm pretty alone here in my view of reality. Well in all sincerity your world view is what you're supposed to wake up from. |
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Post by figgles on Sept 21, 2016 17:00:13 GMT -5
I see dusty riled up.. though that's probably due to the stress he's carrying as a carer. No, not riled up, I know I'm pretty alone here in my view of reality. Yeah, I'm not seeing emotionally 'riled', just interested in being heard/understood. |
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Post by figgles on Sept 21, 2016 17:08:47 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone particularly excited or riled up there though, did you? I see dusty riled up.. though that's probably due to the stress he's carrying as a carer. All sorts of labels there, that I'm not seeing. |
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Post by figgles on Sept 21, 2016 17:09:30 GMT -5
Every decision ever made, gets made according to whatever interest/desire is strongest in that moment. No one chooses those interests, and whatever the overriding interest is in any given moment, gets acted upon. Interests cannot be bucked. What looks like a 'good decision' to do the kind/right thing is really just the playing out of the highest interest. No one chooses to desire to be a monster. Agree. ......Alpha Dog has been on my movie list a long time, just watched it yesterday. Your post is a pretty good description of it. I'll have to check it out. |
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Post by andrew on Sept 21, 2016 18:05:16 GMT -5
LOL Watch this from 7.00-8.00...particularly you Enigma I like Louis CK a lot, don't always agree with him, but love his presentation of the material. Oh and I reckon Bill Burr and Adyashanti are twins separated at birth  |
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