veter
Junior Member
Posts: 83 
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Post by veter on May 16, 2015 6:29:01 GMT -5
while we talk about free will in relation to separate "I", 'free will' and 'no free will' are wrong concepts both  can you say a bit more on that, I'm not quite getting your meaning...? Usually concepts about "free will" and "no free will" don't leave ego-view. it's still about "I": I have free will, I don't have free will. |
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veter
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by veter on May 16, 2015 6:29:53 GMT -5
Only ego has problems with will-question |
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Post by tenka on May 16, 2015 7:04:44 GMT -5
That makes sense to me .. although when andy spoke of Tolles deep sufferings endured without working through the causes of such didn't make sense . The difference between 'letting go' and 'escaping' is subtle but worth noting.. when the experiencer 'lets go' there's no need to work through anything, the issues are no longer present or influencing the experiencer's understandings.. escaping is a contrivance, letting go is a simple release, like letting go of the handle of the baggage the experiencer carries with them.. At the point of letting go one is at that point of letting go so there will be something going on where what has been let go of no longer serves them or holds any weight / influence . For as long as it does hold weight / influence one cannot let go of whatever it is . Jay spoke of his smoking habit and and when he experience lung issues was he then ready to let smoking go . Something usually happens in order for one to let go of something .. For Tolle he had his suicidal traits / experiences . I mentioned to E that it made no sense to me that Tolle escaped his sufferings and swapping one addiction for another doesn't deal with the reason for why one is addicted . |
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Post by tenka on May 16, 2015 7:06:24 GMT -5
That makes sense to me .. although when andy spoke of Tolles deep sufferings endured without working through the causes of such didn't make sense . Tolle suffered for years, but when he was on the verge of suicide, he had a strange thought, which triggered a big enlightenment experience. After that happened, he spent a long time in a state of bliss. His past suffering disappeared (along with 80% of his past thoughts), and he later wrote several books about the path of non-duality. As far as I know, he has never advocated escaping from suffering. His primary teaching is to become present and thereby become free from the kinds of thoughts that cause suffering. Thanks for adding this Z.D. I understand that there are different types of sufferings or should I say that there are sufferings created through actions done and there are sufferings created in order to instigate change . I would say that transcending deep rooted issues / sufferings without working through them are sufferings that are in their own nature experienced in order to bring about ascension / awakening or realization . If one transcends sufferings had that have resulted from abusing others for example then one will have no understanding of such actions in relation to those others that were abused . |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 7:23:29 GMT -5
Tolle suffered for years, but when he was on the verge of suicide, he had a strange thought, which triggered a big enlightenment experience. After that happened, he spent a long time in a state of bliss. His past suffering disappeared (along with 80% of his past thoughts), and he later wrote several books about the path of non-duality. As far as I know, he has never advocated escaping from suffering. His primary teaching is to become present and thereby become free from the kinds of thoughts that cause suffering. Thanks for adding this Z.D. I understand that there are different types of sufferings or should I say that there are sufferings created through actions done and there are sufferings created in order to instigate change . I would say that transcending deep rooted issues / sufferings without working through them are sufferings that are in their own nature experienced in order to bring about ascension / awakening or realization . If one transcends sufferings had that have resulted from abusing others for example then one will have no understanding of such actions in relation to those others that were abused . If you had abused others in the past and then become free of suffering why would you cease to have an understanding of such actions. Are you saying that we are condemned to suffer so that we may continue to have an appreciation of it. |
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Post by tenka on May 16, 2015 7:39:34 GMT -5
Thanks for adding this Z.D. I understand that there are different types of sufferings or should I say that there are sufferings created through actions done and there are sufferings created in order to instigate change . I would say that transcending deep rooted issues / sufferings without working through them are sufferings that are in their own nature experienced in order to bring about ascension / awakening or realization . If one transcends sufferings had that have resulted from abusing others for example then one will have no understanding of such actions in relation to those others that were abused . If you had abused others in the past and then become free of suffering why would you cease to have an understanding of such actions. Are you saying that we are condemned to suffer so that we may continue to have an appreciation of it. On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 7:47:07 GMT -5
If you had abused others in the past and then become free of suffering why would you cease to have an understanding of such actions. Are you saying that we are condemned to suffer so that we may continue to have an appreciation of it. On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . I have no idea what "working through" suffering means. Please explain. Tolle became completely free of suffering because that's what SR. Is. It was 80% of his thinking that ceased not his suffering. |
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Post by tenka on May 16, 2015 8:18:43 GMT -5
On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . I have no idea what "working through" suffering means. Please explain. Tolle became completely free of suffering because that's what SR. Is. It was 80% of his thinking that ceased not his suffering. o.k in simple terms for example, when an individual intentionally harms another they are not expressing self love . Sufferings arise or are created out of the sufferings one causes for another . Working through one's own sufferings would happen in a process of understanding their ways / expression in relation to the sufferings caused by their hand . This in turn eventually is reflected back upon themselves .. no one ends up being a happy blissful bunny when they have just abused another . Working through sufferings entails a self enquiry process and what is of the process will eventually contain the self love that was lacking that initially caused the sufferings of another in the first instance . While one is consumed by these energies associated with sufferings I would say one will not Self realize whilst these energies are in toe . That is why I can only relate to Tolles sufferings as being a catalyst for his realizations rather than something deep rooted that needed resolving and self love . |
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Post by Reefs on May 16, 2015 8:23:07 GMT -5
On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . . Please explain. Tolle became completely free of suffering because that's what SR. Is. It was 80% of his thinking that ceased not his suffering. It's a way how spiritual/personal growthers try to improve their experience. The logic behind it is this: by doing cleansing work on self they think they get closer to Self. |
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Post by zendancer on May 16, 2015 8:23:09 GMT -5
On some level we have to relate our sufferings had with something . The cause of sufferings on some level is attained otherwise one could potentially carry on regardless and continue to abuse others . To cause others suffering one moment and entertain bliss the next moment won't happen until the sufferings caused are self digested and worked through . Tis a simple process I would say . Z.D. mentioned 80% of Tolles past sufferings disappeared and I would suggest that in order for something to disappear that something has no longer any baring or influence . For something to no longer have any influence / reason for being then that something has been already worked through on some level . For Tolle's deep rooted suffering to be transcended without being worked through I can only imagine that these deep rooted issues were present to act as a catalyst for realization and not endured for any other reason otherwise he would of endured a process of self forgiveness / healing and such likes . I have no idea what "working through" suffering means. Please explain. Tolle became completely free of suffering because that's what SR. Is. It was 80% of his thinking that ceased not his suffering. Correct. Tolle didn't "work through" anything. After a lifetime of suffering (which he now attributes to his past thinking habits) he was ready to commit suicide. His thought was "I can't live with myself any more." This thought struck him as exceedingly strange because it implied that he was two people (the I, and the self that the I couldn't live with). He then wondered, "Which one of me is real?" This question, according to Tolle, caused him to be sucked into a vortex. He woke up the next morning in a different reality than the one he had previously inhabited. His new reality was alive and wondrous, and he lived in a state of bliss for a long time. He did not understand what had happened to him, but he knew it was profound. His whole life had changed, and all of his past suffering had disappeared. He now lived in the present moment, and inhabited a state of silent awareness. In the terminology used on this forum, Tolle had had a huge "woo woo experience" (enlightenment or kensho experience) which resulted in many realizations, but it took a while for his mind to become informed about what had happened to him, so that he had a framework for understanding it. He claims that he later heard a Zen Master say, "Zen is about NOT thinking." When he heard that statement, he then realized that after his woo woo experience ended, 80% of his thinking had ceased, and he also realized that his past thinking habits had been the cause of all his past suffering. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 8:30:26 GMT -5
I have no idea what "working through" suffering means. Please explain. Tolle became completely free of suffering because that's what SR. Is. It was 80% of his thinking that ceased not his suffering. It's a way how spiritual/personal growthers try to improve their experience. The logic behind it is this: by doing cleansing work on self they think they get closer to Self. Thanks for saving me the trouble of replying. I don't think I could better your succinct reply. |
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Post by zendancer on May 16, 2015 8:31:04 GMT -5
IMO you only have to "work through stuff" if you think you have to work through stuff, and the whole process strikes me as a kind of mind game. As soon as we see who/what everything is happening to, the whole processing/forgiveness/understanding game instantly comes to an end. Insight or realization is the key.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 8:33:53 GMT -5
IMO you only have to "work through stuff" if you think you have to work through stuff, and the whole process strikes me as a kind of mind game. As soon as we see who/what everything is happening to, the whole processing/forgiveness/understanding game instantly comes to an end. Insight or realization is the key. Yes, you can never be liberated by building more sand castles. |
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Post by enigma on May 16, 2015 8:54:07 GMT -5
The only problem is nothing is predetermined. It makes a difference whether one envisions a spontaneous unfolding, which is infinitely malleable, or a plan laid out fully at the beginning, which is how I interpret predetermined. Exactly, I think gopal is connecting some dots that shouldn't be connected. He needs for there to be a personal God to help him explain some things, and so he must bow to that God he creates. |
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Post by enigma on May 16, 2015 8:58:02 GMT -5
Just to expand on that, mind is always in control during the practice, and is careful to not see anything it doesn't want to see. Mind has some sort of agenda for wanting to do the practice, and it has nothing to do with anything that might compromise mind/body identity or leave mind in a position of less apparent control. Usually, it's about attaining a more relaxed state from which mind can launch it's future plans. To be fully present is to be without ego, as ego is in the thoughts only, and so mind rarely allows that to happen, and is prepared to end the meditation if things get too risky. Generally, this whole process is unconscious, and the meditator (mind) is convinced he did his best to be present and see through the illusion. It is, of course, a split mind process. There is the hope, however, that mind may miscalculate or relax it's guard too much. These are very auspicious moments. I agree with the underlined (but ego is also in the emotions, particularly negative emotions, and the learned bodily movements). Emotions are formed by thoughts. |
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