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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 19:35:49 GMT -5
When sadness arises here, I tend to become a bit quiet, I notice it and allow it, and recognize what I am feeling sad about...maybe there will be tears. In the old days, if sadness arose, I would have possibly done something different. All these action which you are doing is the real problem. Those are all mind creations. I would differentiate every other feeling from suffering, suffering is the one which you would like to avoid or which you would like to come out, rest of the feelings are just feelings. Suffering isn't a feeling in it's own right. Any negative feeling that gets sufficiently intense will result in suffering. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 20:32:55 GMT -5
Yes, even knowing the Self leaves remnants of ego in a living body. But it is as a drop in the ocean of being which is beyond any differentiation. Okay, in this case, it sounds like there isn't really an actual 'egoless state'. This idea might have value as a kind of pointer or teaching tool, but in reality, ego still happens to some extent, and the body registers these traces of ego in different ways. Perhaps another way of saying it, when life is engaged from this perspective, feelings are part of that engagement. There is enjoyment, which means there may be the absence of enjoyment. There is emotional pleasure, which means there may be the loss of that pleasure. This is simple engagement, and we don't have to fall into separate identity, or bare our teeth and call it ego. Pain and pleasure, joy and sorrow. That's the nature of life , and the moment you touch it, it's yours. The super enlightened guru is also engaging life on it's terms. None of this need be a problem, and therein lies the difference. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 20:42:44 GMT -5
Any strategy the mind conceives of has been predetermined. So the only way to be free of this is to go to that which is prior to mind which cannot be predetermined because it is outside the field of causality. Only the relative can be subject to predetermination. Some body strategies could be said to be predetermined in the sense that when an itch arises the movement is to scratch it. The pressure to go pee arises and the movement is to relieve it. The same is true for unhappiness and irritation, the movement is to address these sensations/feelings, what differs from individual to individual is how they are addressed. Some lash out, some just 'be' with it, some go eat some food...it varies. There's no freedom from certain body programs, but it is possible to intelligently and harmoniously function, or 'work with' these body programs. Yes, there's nothing wrong with seeking a better experience. If you're sitting on a tack, you'd be a fool to not get up and sit somewhere else. The notion that the discomfort is not to be noticed or acted upon sounds like a misguided attempt to devise a plan to avoid suffering. |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 20:43:19 GMT -5
Some body strategies could be said to be predetermined in the sense that when an itch arises the movement is to scratch it. The pressure to go pee arises and the movement is to relieve it. The same is true for unhappiness and irritation, the movement is to address these sensations/feelings, what differs from individual to individual is how they are addressed. Some lash out, some just 'be' with it, some go eat some food...it varies. There's no freedom from certain body programs, but it is possible to intelligently and harmoniously function, or 'work with' these body programs. It was predetermined that you would write this post. By whom? |
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Post by enigma on May 15, 2015 21:39:06 GMT -5
I am talking about experience of certain feelings(suffering). Feelings and thoughts are the same thing. Suffering is felt when you experience something other than yourself. Attachment to and identification with objects is to experience something other than yourself. So experiencing this would be suffering?  |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 23:08:24 GMT -5
There is no such thing as unhappiness. There is only a disconnection from happiness which is your natural state. Your natural state is Peace. Happiness comes and goes like everything in the phenomenological universe. I'll stick with the happiness which doesn't come and go if that's OK with you. Of course it is peace also. I have said before I prefer to use the word bliss which encapsulates both peace and complete contentedness. Word words... |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 23:10:00 GMT -5
Feelings and thoughts are the same thing. Suffering is felt when you experience something other than yourself. Attachment to and identification with objects is to experience something other than yourself. So experiencing this would be suffering? Indeed, because you won't want it to end which alas it must. Then you suffer. |
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Post by Reefs on May 16, 2015 1:51:52 GMT -5
So experiencing this would be suffering? Indeed, because you won't want it to end which alas it must. Then you suffer. Does the word balance mean anything to you? |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 1:55:21 GMT -5
Indeed, because you won't want it to end which alas it must. Then you suffer. Does the word balance mean anything to you? Balance goes right out the window when confronted with such deliciousness. |
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2015 3:46:40 GMT -5
I've definitely seen there is no free will (on another forum I wrote hundreds, perhaps thousands, of messages arguing that there is no free will lol) but eventually it became unimportant to me whether we do, or don't, what became important was that we can act as if we do. IOW, it's important to you that you can pretend. Why? I realized that every time action is undertaken, every time a choice is made, there is the underlying unspoken perception that we are free to make that choice or act in that way. So I realized that at a bare minimum, the illusion of free will is present in our experience, that we are not just programmed machines, and that the body operates under the assumption of being free (unless limitation is consciously perceived). At which point it seemed more of a pretence to DENY free will, even though I could clearly see the truth of 'no free will'. So there's no pretence, it's more of an acceptance to what is natural. |
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2015 3:51:42 GMT -5
Is unhappiness the same thing as sadness to you? When sadness arises here, I tend to become a bit quiet, I notice it and allow it, and recognize what I am feeling sad about...maybe there will be tears. In the old days, if sadness arose, I would have possibly done something different. I wasn't expecting sanity from you! How bout giving me some warning next time?  I omitted saying that that is only what happens when the pub is shut  |
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Post by veter on May 16, 2015 3:59:36 GMT -5
IOW, it's important to you that you can pretend. Why? I realized that every time action is undertaken, every time a choice is made, there is the underlying unspoken perception that we are free to make that choice or act in that way. So I realized that at a bare minimum, the illusion of free will is present in our experience, that we are not just programmed machines, and that the body operates under the assumption of being free (unless limitation is consciously perceived). At which point it seemed more of a pretence to DENY free will, even though I could clearly see the truth of 'no free will'. So there's no pretence, it's more of an acceptance to what is natural. while we talk about free will in relation to separate "I", 'free will' and 'no free will' are wrong concepts both  |
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2015 4:05:14 GMT -5
Some body strategies could be said to be predetermined in the sense that when an itch arises the movement is to scratch it. The pressure to go pee arises and the movement is to relieve it. The same is true for unhappiness and irritation, the movement is to address these sensations/feelings, what differs from individual to individual is how they are addressed. Some lash out, some just 'be' with it, some go eat some food...it varies. There's no freedom from certain body programs, but it is possible to intelligently and harmoniously function, or 'work with' these body programs. Yes, there's nothing wrong with seeking a better experience. If you're sitting on a tack, you'd be a fool to not get up and sit somewhere else. The notion that the discomfort is not to be noticed or acted upon sounds like a misguided attempt to devise a plan to avoid suffering. Yes. I'm sure gopal wasn't saying that discomfort is not to be noticed and acted upon (he laughed at the scratching an itch example), but I didn't quite get to the bottom of what he considers to be a 'problem' and why. It occurs to me right now, gopal, that I can perhaps see why you would consider pausing and allowing sadness to move through the body to be a 'mind game' based on your understandings, but perhaps 'mind games' of these sorts aren't the 'problem'. Perhaps these sorts of mind games are part of the natural functioning of the organism. |
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2015 4:11:18 GMT -5
I realized that every time action is undertaken, every time a choice is made, there is the underlying unspoken perception that we are free to make that choice or act in that way. So I realized that at a bare minimum, the illusion of free will is present in our experience, that we are not just programmed machines, and that the body operates under the assumption of being free (unless limitation is consciously perceived). At which point it seemed more of a pretence to DENY free will, even though I could clearly see the truth of 'no free will'. So there's no pretence, it's more of an acceptance to what is natural. while we talk about free will in relation to separate "I", 'free will' and 'no free will' are wrong concepts both can you say a bit more on that, I'm not quite getting your meaning...? |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 4:11:34 GMT -5
Yes, there's nothing wrong with seeking a better experience. If you're sitting on a tack, you'd be a fool to not get up and sit somewhere else. The notion that the discomfort is not to be noticed or acted upon sounds like a misguided attempt to devise a plan to avoid suffering. Yes. I'm sure gopal wasn't saying that discomfort is not to be noticed and acted upon (he laughed at the scratching an itch example), but I didn't quite get to the bottom of what he considers to be a 'problem' and why. It occurs to me right now, gopal, that I can perhaps see why you would consider pausing and allowing sadness to move through the body to be a 'mind game' based on your understandings, but perhaps 'mind games' of these sorts aren't the 'problem'. Perhaps these sorts of mind games are part of the natural functioning of the organism. Sometimes in these discussions it's easy to lose sight of the fact that when you have an itch, you just scratch it. You don't go wandering off into the forest to contemplate the existential meaning of how to react to the itch. |
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